Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?


Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a sin?
If it is , God's mercy and grace are ALWAYS available , all you have to do is ask !
A father is ALWAYS ready to help his child stand when that child for some reason falls.
TV , magazines etc. all those things are made for us, we choose on how we use them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a a sin?
.

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I watch (pornography, albeit soft) for a few minutes,sometimes only for a few seconds.

It is definitelya sin (perhaps even an addiction. I generally make a point of avoiding it but I have my moments of weakness.

I understand that it is not a sin to be tempted. I am tempted every day with this sin and 99% of the time I resist but I guess sometimes I am not strong enough.

J

Things are not always the way they seem !
1 Samuel 27:1 And David said in his heart, I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul: there is nothing better for me than that I should speedily escape into the land of the Philistines; and Saul shall despair of me, to seek me any more in any coast of Israel: so shall I escape out of his hand.
2 And David arose, and he passed over with the six hundred men that were with him unto Achish, the son of Maoch, king of Gath.

3 And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's wife.
4 And it was told Saul that David was fled to Gath: and he sought no more again for him.

5 And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?

6 Then Achish gave him Ziklag that day: wherefore Ziklag pertaineth unto the kings of Judah unto this day.

7 And the time that David dwelt in the country of the Philistines was a full year and four months.

Read carefully and find out if you can see yourself in David's place!

Remember , at that time it was a sin to have any kind of a relationship with someone who was not an Israelite , so to the eyes of the Israelites David was committing sin by doing what he did!

Its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that aren't even real.

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Originally Posted by FORCE_electric

its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that arent even real.

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FORCE_electric
The unfortunate thing is that so many people don't know or have forgotten who their Father is !This world is full of orphans not because their Father is dead , but because they lost him.Who is going to help those people to find their Father ?Do you know who your Father is?Do you know what He has done for you and still does day by day?Do you know that He paid what you had to pay and because you are too proud to accept that,you still owe? How unfortunate is that?
[B]God being my Father , that is my religion[/B]!You call that unreal?You are to find out how wrong you are!

When temptation arises, whether it's TV, magazines, computer, keep in the forefront of your mind the things that God hates and switch the channel, turn the page, click the off switch straight away, without hesitation! If an image is still in your mind, pray for God's holy spirit to help you be strong and overcome your weakness. If you truly want to please God you need to hate what God hates (Prov 8:13) and strive hard to win the battle against any weaknesses. Trust in God that he will help you. If you don't shake off the "old personality" then really how much do you want to change? (Eph 4:23,24)
Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites. How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people. Something to think about...

Moparbyfar
You wrote ''Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites.How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people.

When Did God rejected them? Israel was and still is God's chosen people.God chose Israel , no other nation and through Israel , we the nations are blessed to Know God!Yes Israel made many mistakes but remember ''Isaiah 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

This is a big issue but this is not the subjec here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

[QUOTE

This is a big issue but this is not the subject here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!

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Seems to me like YOU are wishing to make this a subject, yes? My point was that God has in the past not continually forgiven and we are no exception. Why don't you start a new thread RE this topic as it looks like something you are itching to discuss?

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When Did God rejected them?

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In short, God rejected natural Israel for the last time when they rejected his son as their saviour. Matt 21:43 and Heb 8:9 confirms this. So God opened the way for all to benefit from Jesus death, not just Jews (Rev 5:9), beginning at Pentecost 33 CE when a new spiritual nation of Israel was born.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JPN

Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period of time - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?


Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.

---

You are not alone :


Romans 7

Psalm 51

Hosea Bible.org: Undying Love—The Story of Hosea and Gomer

I find this passage hard to misinterpret:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:26-31

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context. Paul is talking to the Jewish people who went back to sacrificing after the death, burial and resurrection. Of our Lord. It isn't the same thing at all. If we don't put these verses in to context, understand what is going on, who is writing, who it is written to, then scripture would contradict itself. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!

JPN,

The blood of Jesus Christ HIS son, cleanes us from all sin. All means ALL!

There are some great books out there that help when you are in a sin cycle. Great men of God that have struggled with this same problem and have overcome it. There are also some churches that have integrity groups for men. If I were you, I'd research your area and find some help and support.

The balance is found in the following:

1 Cor 6:12

12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
RSV

It is not easy to leave "enslavement" even though we know that when we do give in we are dirtying our conscience for which Jesus died to free us.

I doubt if there is "one answer that fits all". Generally speaking it all comes down to getting back to God quickly when we sin... every time! But like Adam and Eve we try to go hide so God doesn't see our nakedness.

So follow what is in your heart according to what you wrote: repent immediately... and then ask for guidance and empowerment from Him... over and over again until the victory over this sin is won. And it may take a long time to overcome an area of your life where sin is solidly entrenched. Keep at it and don't doubt that if you resist the devil long enough, he must flee from you, who are a true child of God.

Also learn to forgive yourself just like you know God has already done.

Here is a great goal by one who also had problems with the past:

Phil 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context.

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I don't think so. The key is that the person is sinning willfully. What is the only Scriptural definition of sin? Sin is transgression of the law [torah] 1John 3:4. Regardless of the context everyone is held to the same standard---do not sin.

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "... Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him."

Everyone will be judged by the same standards. We do not have a license to sin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by needinfo08

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "...Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him." .

---

I agree that we need both the faith in God's promised Messiah and the faith which produces good works by the power of the Spirit of God.

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:

Rom 3:19-25

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
NIV

Rom 10:1-4
10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.NIV

We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.


You are right that there is no license to sin. Those who believe that will eventually be so enslaved by the sin from which they had been set free that they will not count themselves worthy of God's love and forgiveness but will expect only His just wrath. They will throw away all hope that they had in God.

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Originally Posted by revdrgade

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:

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Agreed. But think of it as a prisoner who receives a pardon. The murder does not have the power/authority to pardon himself; the Governor has to do it. However, after receiving the pardon, can the person commit murder again and remain free? Of course not, he is not "working righteousness", he has trangressed the law. So without obedience to the law, there is no more sacrifice/pardon. In other words, forgiveness of past sins is by grace; receiving eternal life is by striving to keep the commandments.

Quote:

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We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.

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We are no longer "under the law of animal sacrifice". In the Wilderness, atonement was made by animal sacrifice in the Tabernacle, then later in the Temple. Now Messiah (Our Sacrificial Lamb) has come and we has forgiveness by His blood sacrifice. He replaced the need for animal sacrifice and the Temple in 30AD and then 40 years later the Temple was destroyed.

Matthew 5:17 "Think not [don't think for a minute] that I am come to destroy the law... "

revdrgade -

your comments regarding justification are right on the money but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law. Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself; only God can justify a person and render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

Going pack to the original thread by JPN, the question was asked "...when does God say enough is enough?" I'd like to try to attempt to answer that question, if I may.

JPN, I really appreciate your tenderness of heart because it truly reveals the righteousness of your inward man. Let me explain. Throughout the New Testament, the teaching of the Apostles are all uniform in that they recognize something fundamental about being a believer: namely, that I must recognize that I am a sinner. Without such a perspective, it is impossible to comprehend the fullness of what the gospel means. The gospel itself is fundamentally this perspective that God is presenting to us about who He is and about who we are. When we understand that God is holy and that we are morally unworthy before God and deserving of His wrath, that is the place where humility aids us in accepting that the gospel is what I really need. When we accept the gospel as true and begin to align our lives with the truth of the bible, we begin to face a tension in our lives that is all too familiar to any believer who has ever taken God seriously about trying to live a righteous life. This is where I'd like to spend a minute or two addressing that tension.

JPN, anyone who loves God and strives after righteousness comes face to face with his or her own moral weakness. We are exposed to a lot of theology that sometimes helps up in our pursuit of truth but also theology that confuses us and discourages us. Sometimes we ourselves hold fast to ways of thinking that really cause our minds terrible affliction and irrationalness. So we contend with all kinds of things which really hinder our understanding of what the bible is saying regarding God's character and His dealings with those whom He has chosen, especially as it relates to sin and struggling. One of the fundamental questions that could be asked is this: “does God expect us to never sin.” That's a potentially misleading question so let me clarify what I mean. For all of us at some point, when we fail morally (or sin) we feel this internal anguish and frustration and we ask ourselves “why did I do that?” We then wonder, does God hate me for this or will He ever find it in Himself to forgive me? But what is the truth on this matter?

I argue that if a person has been chosen to receive eternal life, God begins to personally go to work on a person's soul to purge the crud and filth that pollutes us and causes us grief and sorrow in this life. Often times what we are told by well meaning people is that we can overcome temptation and sin by following three simple steps or some acronym devised by someone claiming to have insight into overcoming temptation, etc. Paul, however, in Romans, argues that while we are yet still in these mortal bodies of ours, we struggle inwardly between what we desire from our inner man (which is to obey God) and from what the body of sin desires. He notes that in Romans 7, the struggle with which he himself endured with covetousness. His response to these struggles was this: “who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank my God through my Lord Jesus Christ.” I would say that Paul's argument throughout Ch 5 – 7 is that what God has changed in me through my rebirth (or salvation) is that now my inner man has been changed to see that it is a good thing to strive after the goodness and righteousness of God. However, I am not yet the man that Jesus Christ will one day create me to be. I struggle with sin and I hate the sin in my life because it is terribly burdensome and grievous to desire so badly in my heart to obey God but find that often times I fall so short of what I know is good and right.

So what is wrong or what am I to think about these things? In my own thinking, I have come to conclude that what marks me as a child of God is that I really look at the bible and what God says and from my heart I say this: “God, I really want to do what you say is right but sometimes I really have a hard time doing what I know is right because the desire to do evil is sometimes so strong in me.” It's not that I do wrong which disqualifies me in the eyes of God, it's that I desire to love God and do what He says that indicates that He has qualified me to receive His mercy. We have to accept that the fullness of all of the promises made to us by God in the gospel, namely that someday we will be glorified, has not happened yet. This is why we are told to persevere in faith and not to lose heart. And as Paul says, the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed in us. And as John says in 1 John 3, Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

The thought in view here is this: God's children long to be free from sin because in their hearts, they long to be able to know only one choice and that is to be completely and thoroughly free from evil so as to obey God utterly. We don't fully comprehend what such a state of being will be like because we have not experienced that life yet…this is why John says “what we will be has not yet appeared.” But the hope in which he refers to is a hope which ultimately purifies our conscience to keep striving after good, and that hope is this: that someday we will be like our Lord Jesus Christ in His character and nature, the sinless and glorious Son of God. JPN, take courage in this and persevere in your struggles, “for we have not a high priest who cannot empathize with us in our weakness but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.” He understands our struggle and if we are God's children, then He is not ashamed to call us brothers (or family) even though we are morally unworthy of God.

JPN,
I do believe what the bible says about God's mercy and forgiveness.
The bible tells us that if we are sorry for our sins and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us as we forgive others.
That is He forgives in the same way we forgive. If we forgive with conditions then that is the way He forgives us.
Jesus tells us that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Forgiving others is a blessing.
It takes a big load off ones mind and soul.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by jakester

revdrgade -

... but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law.

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Unfortunately there is a failure among most to distinguish between the oral law (talmud) and the written law (torah). The Pharisees followed the oral law. The oral law was a list of do's and don'ts created by the rabbi over the centuries. It was a burden. There were over 1,500 rules on how to observe the Sabbath alone. If one reads Matthew chapters 5-7 you will see that the Messiah is showing them how to correctly follow the written law, not the oral law of the Pharisees.

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men[oral law].

Also see their condemnation in Matthew 23. It can be easily shown that Paul and the disciples all continued to follow and teach the written law.

Quote:

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Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself;only God can justify a person...

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Completely agree.

Quote:

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... render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

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Question: How does YHWH determine if you are worthy to receive eternal life? What is the standard?

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life[eternal life], and may enter through the gates into the city."

needinfo08,
Well said.
Fred.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

needinfo08,
Well said.
Fred.

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Thank you very much, Arcura! You appear to you have ears that hear :)

Needinfo –

I understand where you are going with that question, “How does YHWH determine if you are worthy to receive eternal life? What is the standard?” Let me explain what I don't mean by worthy and what I do mean by worthy.

First off, the fundamental nature of the gospel itself declares that all men are unworthy by God's standard of righteousness. It was for man's unworthiness and evil that Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion and the subsequent wrath of God. He was killed and condemned for our sins and the condemnation he endured from God was supposed to be our condemnation, because “the wages of sin is death.”

However, we all know that not everyone believes the gospel because not everyone sees it as necessary or cares to submit to God even though God's hand of mercy is being extended to everyone. But whether we believe or don't believe, the fact remains that God is interested in being merciful to sinners. Why is He willing to be merciful unless there is by necessity something to forgive…this is getting at the heart of why I use the term worthy.

I am arguing that no human being can ever be worthy of eternal life by his own standards because the only standard that matters is God's. Paul has stated that “no flesh will be justified in His sight” because “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” So then, is it possible for you and I to be worthy of eternal life in God's eyes? The answer I think is obvious…of course not! However, what is central to the gospel is that God does forgive some for their sins and declare them righteous, but not because they themselves are righteous but because God is willing to overlook their sins because of Jesus's sacrificial death on their behalf.

In this case, since some are being identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, then those who are identified with Christ are also being considered worthy of eternal life because upon the merit of Jesus, God is granting eternal life to them. It's not that man is striving to be worthy of eternal life, it is God reaching out among the whole of humanity and saving some to become heirs of the kingdom of God because He is desiring to do it…in effect, He is making us worthy to receive eternal life. By definition, worthy can simply mean having worth or merit or value; being honorable or admirable; "a worthy fellow." In the case of the bible, to be worthy means being made to have value or merit and we are made worthy because of our connectedness through Jesus Christ.

I want to introduce a concept I discovered a few years ago that is not being taught by mainstream churches, but is born out by the Scriptures.

ETERNAL LIFE (Salvation) and the FORGIVENESS OF SINS (Justification) are not the same thing.

A problem with Christian theology is that it confuses "ETERNAL LIFE" with the "FORGIVENESS OF SINS". We need to look at things the way they actually are not the way we have been taught they are.

I believe the following scriptures will show that "FORGIVENESS OF SINS" is by unmerited grace; "ETERNAL LIFE" is by striving to keep the commandents.

Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Acts 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

Romans 3:25 "Whom YHWH hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of YHWH;"

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"

All the above verses talk about the "blood", "forgiveness", "grace". Heaven and Eternal Life are not mentioned.

ETERNAL LIFE is based on what you do after being FORGIVEN/CLEANSED:

Matthew 19:16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

The Scriptures say YHWH cannot lie (Titus 1:2). The above verse is true. If ETERNAL LIFE could be obtained by some other means aside from keeping the commandments, Yahushua was obliged to state it. Look at the consistency throughout these verses:

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM;"

Romans 2:7 "To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM;"

Romans 2:7 "To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:"

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (Torah). IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to YHWH, ye have your fruit unto set-apartness, and the end EVERLASTING LIFE."

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

Galatians 6:8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

:"

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (Torah). IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even Forgiveness by grace; Eternal life by obedience to the laws of the Kingdom."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to YHWH, ye have your fruit unto set-apartness, and the end EVERLASTING LIFE."

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter, and shall not be able."

Galatians 6:8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

[bbcode][/bbcode]

Need,

So what you are saying is that I can have my sins forgiven and still go to hell because I didn't earn eternal life by keeping the law. Is that correct?

Needinfo -

One of two things is true, regarding your desire to "...introduce a concept I discovered a few years ago that is not being taught by mainstream churches, but is born out by the Scriptures." Either you are right and the fact remains that mainstream churches are wrong (or hell-bound) or your interpretation is wrong... my guess is that you are right in your mind and so no amount of reasoning is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Hope the weather is nice in sunny Florida.

Jakester,

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

needinfo08,
Eternal life can not be had without the remission of sins.
We MUST be forgiven and clean of sin to enter heaven, so the bible tells us in several ways.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by classyT

Need,

so what you are saying is that i can have my sins forgiven and still go to hell because i didn't earn eternal life by keeping the law. Is that correct?

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REv 3: 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exo 32:33 "And the YHWH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


I wouldn't say "earn eternal life" more like conform (have the mindset) to the laws of the Kingdom. There can be no denying that YHWH expects us to keep the commandments or HE wouldn't have given them.

"Blot out" to me implies that it was written down and then erased as oppose to never being written down. It is like being on probation. It is a hard reality, but it is what it is. I would rather know now then be deceived on Judgment Day.

"Keeping the commandments" is not an unachievable task. "Love YHWH with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength... love thy neighbor as thy self". The only thing most are not doing is keeping the 7 festivals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakester

needinfo -
...my guess is that you are right in your mind and so no amount of reasoning is relevant to the discussion at hand.

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Don't you feel an obligation to help a misguided Brother? I do. That is why I share my views. I have a sincere desire to know the absolute truth since it effects my eternal destiny. I would think that most rational beings would feel the same way. If I am wrong please point it out so I can repent and get on the right track.

I would not have come to the conclusions that I have if I did not have a strong desire to "rightly divide" the Word. The Scriptures should never contradict each other and so far I have only found that my view does that.

Can you explain this one?

Matthew7:21-23

21Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[without Torah].

I can and I do not have to twist logic or Scripture to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by needinfo08

Don't you feel an obligation to help a misguided Brother? I do. That is why I share my views. I have a sincere desire to know the absolute truth since it effects my eternal destiny. I would think that most rational beings would feel the same way. If I am wrong please point it out so I can repent and get on the right track.

I would not have come to the conclusions that I have if I did not have a strong desire to "rightly divide" the Word. The Scriptures should never contradict each other and so far I have only found that my view does that.

Can you explain this one?

Matthew7:21-23

21Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[without Torah].

I can and I do not have to twist logic or Scripture to do it.

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So can I... you didn't finish the verse. The LORD goes on to say I NEVER knew you. That is HUGE. He never knew these people. They had no real relationship with him and they NEVER did. He doesn't say... I knew you once but you sinned too many times so I dropped you. Never means NEVER. That isn't twisting scripture or twisting logic. It is just completing the verse.

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Originally Posted by classyT

so can i...you didn't finish the verse. the LORD goes on to say I NEVER knew you. That is HUGE. He never knew these people. They had no real relationship with him and they NEVER did. He doesnt say...i knew you once but you sinned too many times so i dropped ya. Never means NEVER. That isn't twisting scripture or twisting logic. It is just completing the verse.

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Actually you didn't finish this verse. The key to this verse is "iniquity". He labels those that He never "know" intimately as "workers of iniquity". What is "inquity"?

"Iniquity" in the Greek is Strong’s Number 458 “anomia” :

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 458
Definition:

• the condition of without law
• because ignorant of it
• because of violating it
• contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So here is the verse with the Strong's Number by it

Matthew
7:23 And <2532> then <5119> will I profess <3670> unto them <846> * <3754>, I never <3763> knew <1097> you: <5209> depart <672> from <575> me, <1700> ye that work <2038> iniquity. <458>

And here is the verse with the actual definition of "iniquity" used

7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work contempt and violation of Torah. <458>

Another Example

Matthew
13:41 The Son <5207> of man <444> shall send forth <649> his <846> angels, <32> and <2532> they shall gather <4816> out of <1537> his <846> kingdom <932> all things <3956> that offend, <4625> and <2532> them which do <4160> iniquity; <458>

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do violate the Torah. <458>


He is the Word become flesh, He is the embodiment of those virtues YHWH desires. He never "knew" them because they never became one with the Word. He only does what His Father commands, we are to imitate Messiah.

[QUOTE= A problem with Christian theology is that it confuses [B]"ETERNAL LIFE" [/B]with the "FORGIVENESS OF SINS". We need to look at things the way they actually are not the way we have been taught they are.

I believe the following scriptures will show that "FORGIVENESS OF SINS" is by unmerited grace; "ETERNAL LIFE" is by striving to keep the commandents. QUOTE]


If by "striving to keep the commandments" you mean "the obedience of faith" then you are not far from the truth. But it is still not our "striving" that gives us eternal life. The "striving to keep the commandents" is the fruit of having had the Holy Spirit come into our hearts by the power of the gospel.

Rom 1:16-17

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
NIV

Jesus said that a person who has received Him has become a new person who WILL do good works. He speaks of these good works as automatic to those who have become His:

Matt 7:15-19
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
NIV

BUT the Law is no longer a condemning requirement to those who are joined to God. The Law cannot condemn us. I suppose that is why you used the word "striving" instead of the requirement, "must do".

Salvation, Remission of sins, Eternal Life, etc are all ours through our faith in God and His fulfilled promise to us through His Son.

Even now we have eternal life and sit with Christ in the heavenlies:

Eph 2:6-10
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV

The "CONFUSION" that you mention is not over grace and good works, but it is over the biblical distinction between JUSTIFICATION (being saved and having eternal life by faith) and SANCTIFICATION (the life of holiness after and due to being justified by the blood of ?Christ) not being taught by most of the teachers/preachers of the Word.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by needinfo08

Actually you didn't finish this verse. The key to this verse is "iniquity". He labels those that He never "know" intimately as "workers of iniquity". What is "inquity"?

"Iniquity" in the Greek is Strong's Number 458 “anomia” :

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 458
Definition:

• the condition of without law
• because ignorant of it
• because of violating it
• contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So here is the verse with the Strong's Number by it

Matthew
7:23 And <2532> then <5119> will I profess <3670> unto them <846> * <3754>, I never <3763> knew <1097> you: <5209> depart <672> from <575> me, <1700> ye that work <2038> iniquity. <458>

And here is the verse with the actual definition of "iniquity" used

7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work contempt and violation of Torah. <458>

Another Example

Matthew
13:41 The Son <5207> of man <444> shall send forth <649> his <846> angels, <32> and <2532> they shall gather <4816> out of <1537> his <846> kingdom <932> all things <3956> that offend, <4625> and <2532> them which do <4160> iniquity; <458>

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do violate the Torah. <458>


He is the Word become flesh, He is the embodiment of those virtues YHWH desires. He never "knew" them because they never became one with the Word. He only does what His Father commands, we are to imitate Messiah.

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Well see I disagree with you the KEY word is NEVER. He said he NEVER knew them. They professed Christianty and yet were not Christians. Look at this country today... how many people say yes, I'm a Christian.. and they haven't got a clue what that even means. There are people going to church and working in the Church and doing good works and they are clueless as to a relationship with the Lord. I asked one who has been going to church for years what the gospel was... his reply? "the gospel is all the differnet stories in the Bible." Thankfully he NOW understands what the gospel is and is now Saved but there are many people who figure if they are pretty good in their eyes and go to church or at least own the name of Jesus somehow that will be enough. They are busy being good ( in their eyes) without a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by needinfo08

REv 3: 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exo 32:33 "And the YHWH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


I wouldn't say "earn eternal life" more like conform (have the mindset) to the laws of the Kingdom. There can be no denying that YHWH expects us to keep the commandments or HE wouldn't have given them.

"Blot out" to me implies that it was written down and then erased as oppose to never being written down. It is like being on probation. It is a hard reality, but it is what it is. I would rather know now then be deceived on Judgment Day.

"Keeping the commandments" is not an unachievable task. "Love YHWH with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength...love thy neighbor as thy self". The only thing most are not doing is keeping the 7 festivals.

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No one has ever kept the law (except Jesus Himself):

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
NKJV

And keeping most of it, but not all means that you are still guilty of all:

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point,] he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Keeping the law has nothing to do with salvation:

Gal 2:16
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV

Gal 2:21
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV

Further, note that the law is not for those who are saved:

1 Tim 1:9-11
The law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV

But it is for the unsaved to lead them to Christ by showing them how far they are away from God's standard:

Gal 3:24-25
Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

The worst of it is, if you place yourself under the law by trying to keep the law rather than depending solely upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then you are judged by the law, and as Romans 3:23 says, there is no hope for those who choose to place themselves under the law.

Tj3,

EXCELLENT POST. I will never understand Christians that want to mix law with grace. It is frustrating.

Quote:

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If by "striving to keep the commandments" you mean "the obedience of faith" then you are not far from the truth. But it is still not our "striving" that gives us eternal life. The "striving to keep the commandents" is the fruit of having had the Holy Spirit come into our hearts by the power of the gospel.

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Question: In order to spend eternity in Heaven is there any other requirement other than having my sins forgiven through confession?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by needinfo08

Question: In order to spend eternity in Heaven is there any other requirement other than having my sins forgiven through confession?

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What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it sin?

Then, if Jesus took your sins on Himself to the cross... the barrier which kept you out is gone.

1 Cor 15:20-27
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death...
1 Cor 15:44-54
... If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam , a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
NIV

This is definitely speaking of IMMORTALITY/ETERNAL LIFE.

It is just fantastic great news that you and I have been forgiven all the mistakes/sins committed before and after we came to know Jesus; the sacrifice and propitiation for all our sins.

This message is the revelation of the love of God for you. You have eternal life. Celebrate it by praising God and seeking to be ever more obedient to our God. You are forgiven and are His called and adopted child.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by revdrgade

What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it sin?

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And what is sin?

"...sin is transgression of the law" 1John 3:4

This is the only definition of sin that I know. So you statement could read:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by revdrgade

What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it trangressing the law?

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Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Messiah is speaking to the "elect", these people are required to "overcome" or else they will be hurt by the second death.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It has got to be apparent that something more is required than just the forgiveness of your sins. You have to meet some standard or else you are hurt by the second death or blotted out of the book of life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Well see i disagree with you the KEY word is NEVER. He said he NEVER knew them. They professed Christianty and yet were not Christians. Look at this country today...how many people say yes, I'm a Christian..and they haven't got a clue what that even means. There are people going to church and working in the Church and doing good works and they are clueless as to a relationship with the Lord. I asked one who has been going to church for years what the gospel was...his reply? "the gospel is all the differnet stories in the Bible." Thankfully he NOW understands what the gospel is and is now Saved but there are many peopel who figure if they are pretty good in their eyes and go to church or at least own the name of Jesus somehow that will be enough. They are busy being good ( in their eyes) without a relationship with Jesus Christ.

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1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The above clearly supports what I pointed out in Matthew. You cannot "know" Him apart from keeping the commandments. It as though this verse were inserted just to clear up Matthew 7:23.