Hello,
I've heard it said that Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works. What works do they have in mind? I'd like to get a Catholic perspective on this.
Rob
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Hello,
I've heard it said that Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works. What works do they have in mind? I'd like to get a Catholic perspective on this.
Rob
Rob - I'm not a Catholic but I see that the bible makes a clear connection between faith and works and that is exactly the argument that James is making in his letter.
In my opinion the arguments I hear regarding that we are saved by faith apart from works really stop short of the full import of what Paul was saying and totally misses what James is saying altogether.
What I believe Paul is saying in Romans is that there was this belief held by Judaizers which basically went like this: "I am a really spiritual person because I keep the commandments of the Mosaic law and therefore I am justified in the eyes of God." The Pharisees had their own interpretation of the Law of Moses and in their minds, they were keeping it so well that they had earned God's favor. This is exactly the attitude of the Pharisee Jesus mentions in his Parable: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
What I believe Jesus is doing here is contrasting the fundamental attitude of the Pharisees with that of real believers. Paul's epistle to the Romans is getting at this fundamental attitude even more and explaining that you or I are not justified by keeping certain rituals or rules but are justified by God apart from the law. That is, God is the one that justifies me in His sight, not me in my adherence to laws.
What James is saying is that the one who is justified by God demonstrates that he or she is a child of God by his or her works. Let me explain. If God were to be merciful to us and extend forgiveness, it is possible that none of us would ever know that He had been merciful to us. The fact that God had chosen to merciful to us would be hidden away in His mind without any of us knowing that He had been merciful to us. But the bible is saying that God has chosen to reveal this to us by marking us with His Spirit. And because He marks those whom He has forgiven, the result is a distinguishable change in the attitude and heart of a believer.
For example, in James, he is saying that rich people have entered into the assemblies of believers and the believers are treating the rich with high regard but showing contempt to the poor believers. Now the rich, as James puts it, "have dragged you into courts" and have even killed some of them. James is saying that if you really believe in Jesus and the gospel, why are you treating the cruel, unbelieving rich man better than your poor brother, who stands to inherit eternal life? James is saying, if you truly are a believer, prove it by your attitude to your brother.
Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.
This is my understanding of faith working together with works.
This is a good one line summary of what he is saying.
Most of the mis-understanding that I have seen of what James says regarding faith and works comes from people reading and interpreting from English rather than getting back into what the word "faith" means in Greek. In Greek, the word "faith" and "faithfulness" are one and the same. Thus if you take the relevant verses in james and use the word "faithfulness" where the word "faith" is, it will help to give a clearer perspective, and one in agreement with what you said above.
Essentially in the Greek it will read like this - If one truly has faith that is demonstrated by faithfulness. If one is not be faithful in their works, then can it be said that one has faith?
They are variously described in Scripture:
The commandments:
Matthew 19 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
The will of the Father:
Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Good Deeds/Good Works
Romans 2
7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Works of Charity
Galatians 5 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.
Matt 25 gets into specific deeds which we call "Corporal works of mercy".
Matthew 25 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
James continues:
James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The problem, De Maria, is this. No one other than Jesus has ever lived up what they should be doing with respect to any of those, therefore if those play any part in our salvation, we are without hope.
De Maria,
Thanks for weighing in. Appreciate the input.
By the way, I responded to your post in the discussion re: 1 Peter 3:19 and purgatory:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1332175
Rob
That is why it is necessary to remain on the vine. It is only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we can walk in the works prepared for us from all time. But Scripture is clear, we will be saved or condemned based on our works:
Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Eternal life who those who persist in good works
7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Condemnation to every man who worketh evil
8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
That seems eminently clear.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria is right.
There are also works Jesus commanded such as to be baptize, to partake of the Eucharist, and to "love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I like where this thread is headed. I see though, as tj3 saw, that there comes a point where we wonder just how many works we have to do to be justified.
I believe there are 2 guides to this:
The spirit of god in us, and love. We have faith in god, but the resulting works are of no use to god, unless they are done in his will, and out of love.
As de maria said, we are to remain in the true vine, jesus. This is a spiritual saying, in that we must hear jesus' will to do it, by loving him and listening to him. Also, reading scripture(bible), we'll understand the words in agreement with that will.
We will begin to act out of love, producing good fruit for the kingdom of heaven. We're transformed into that which jesus is, by obeying his word, and acting on it out of faith.
Then the fruits of his spirit are evident in us, and we are no longer under the faithfulness to law, but to that which is living, and full of love.
I'm glad you said that. That highlights a profound difference between Protestants and Catholics.
We (Catholics) don't give ourselves credit for works. We don't judge ourselves. God does. Scripture is clear on that score.
1 Corinthians 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
In complete contrast, Protestants JUDGE themselves saved. They take credit for the faith they claim to have. Usurping the judgement of God, putting themselves, in fact, above God:
1 Cor 10
12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Sincerely,
De Maria
So then, de maria, are you saying that works are judged of god for our salvation?
I ask because, as you say, that protestants judge themselves saved. I understand there are protestants that will say salvation is not by works.
There will always be a confusion about Faith & (vs.) Works. This confusion arises because we don't have enough teaching in the church today defining and explaining JUSTIFICATION & SANCTIFICATION.
JUSTIFICATION (the same word as RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Greek Bible) means that we who have no righteousness of our own have been made righteous by God through the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ for our sin/unrighteousness. God has declared us "just" through savior as we now have Jesus' righteousness without any works on our part, but completely by faith.
Just a few teachings on the above:
Eph 2:3-10
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV
Rom 3:22-28
There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood . He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
NIV
SANCTIFICATION (in the narrow sense of living as the holy person God desires now that we have been saved by Christ) means that we have been "set apart" by God to reflect His love and glory in the world. As God wanted Adam and Eve and all their descendents to reflect Him, we are now being restored to the image of God in which man was created.
Though we who have been born again are now very active in desiring and carrying out good work for the sake of our neighbors, we still need the Holy Spirit of God working in us to empower us to more and more separate outselves from sin (thoughts, words, deeds) and answer the call of God to minister to the world(the saved and the lost).
It is confusing and greatly dangerous to add works to achieving salvation. If our salvation is in any way dependent on us, we will always have room to doubt that God's love is sufficient to cover our lack. Our only "part" is receiving and keeping by faith what God has given us as a complete gift. No room on our part to doubt... or boast over others.
Matt 7:15-19
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
NIV
Luke 6:43-45
43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
NIV
John 15:5-6
5 "I am the vine ; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
NIV
James 2:14-19
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.
NIV
The point is that salvation is by faith in God's promised free gift... and those who being changed by the message of God's love WILL do good works.
As one of the church fathers put it: "Before a Christian can ask what good works he should be doing, he is already doing them".
Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.
This is my understanding of faith working together with works.[/QUOTE]
When the day of judgement comif then we will know in our hearts who's good and who's not. There is no one left to guide us now Jesus has gone so we can only hope that we are right!
Then we all go to hell for the following three reasons:
1) No one has kept the law perfectly:
Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV
2) If you fail in even one point, you have been found guilty of the whole law:
James 2:10-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV
3) Eternal life does not come through the law:
Gal 3:21-22
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV
It is true that if you keep the law and have never sinned, then you will be saved. But scripture says no one has done it, so if you depend upon keep the law, then you will end up in hell.
Lastly, who is the law for?
1 Tim 1:9-11
The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV
Thus if you place yourself under the law, then... read for yourself.
De Maria,
You hit the nail on the head well with that.
"Judge not lest you be judged" also applies to self judgment about being saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Tj3,
Right you are.
Thanks,
Fred
I understand here, that there's a hope of pleasing god through works. As with salvation, I believe that the works god gives us to do are even from him:
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, [even] our Lord Jesus,
Hbr 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
cogs,
You are right.
We can and should try to please God by doing what He asks and commands us to do.
Those are the works he want from us.
The bible does tell us to "WORK out our salvation."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Tj3,
Right again works alone does not save.
The bible says that faith with works saves.
Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.
Salvation come from the grace of God when we do what He says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
arcura, it seems we are in agreement that the work of jesus is ongoing in our lives. Therefore, as jesus said, that he only does what he sees the father doing, it's important to be able to see what the father is doing.
No Fred it doesn't. In fact it says the exact opposite.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
Right, and time and again the context of this, both in English and Koine Greek has been shown to you, but you ignore the context. First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?Quote:
Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.
This is in concert with the context in English also. Further, scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.
It is Jesus we look to not GOD those Jesus relays to us his blessing.
GOD will judge us but we will not judge the almighty the Messier shell relay info to God but only if he is not forgotten.
I'm just a Shire Lad
jakester:
Your views are well presented; most Catholics would have a hard time disagreeing with you. I didn't see anything that would stand out as different from my understanding of Catholicism except for our respective approach to God's grace of faith.
It's my understanding that God's graces are supernatural gifts to mankind for salvation, requiring the cooperation of the recipient. We can discern two types of grace. The first is actual grace which is a benevolent gift or an unwarranted gratuitous gift. Actual graces include those things we receive such as good looks, patients, intelligence, wisdom, etc. The second type is the supernatural sanctifying graces which are given men to obtain holiness. Sanctifying grace prepares for redemption in that it predisposes one to holiness.
In either event, grace is a gift. And just like any other gift, there is an effort to reach out on the part of the benefactor, and an act of cooperation in the receipt of the gift; it takes two individuals, two distinct wills; one giving the other receiving. There must be a synergism between God and man when these graces are conferred; the free human will and the will of God (the Holy Spirit) work together to bring about spiritual regeneration or salvation. [cf. Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon IV] An opposing view would be the Lutheran view would reject any type of cooperation with the concept of “once saved always saved”, the certitude of justification. The Lutheran views man as depraved and as such saving graces must be forced on man. Thus, Luther rejects “free will” while Calvin's views of a faith as fiduciary denying that man can be holy, a faith that merely covers sin. Catholics however believe in a justification through penance and good works actually removes sin. Consequently the Catholic “faith” is much different from the 'struck by lightning' knowledge that waits for a predestined salvation and requires work. Part of a continuing participation in faith, Catholics operate within the sanctifying graces offered in the sacraments; a “work” by most Protestant definitions. Whereby, Catholics hold that to achieve a supernatural end the “works” of the sacraments provide Catholics with the necessary supernatural means. Sacramental graces are effectual, unlike Zwiglian grace that memorializes a profession, or Luther's sacraments that are merely fiduciary.
The slight deviations held by some Protestants miss the essence of the two natures of Christ, man and God; faith and works. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God's merciful grace), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to personify, “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by most Protestant faiths. (cf Luke 8:21)
The Vatican Council (III, 3) says that "faith is a supernatural virtue by which we with the inspiration and assistance of God's grace, believe those things to be true which He has revealed". I often think of works as a requitement of faith and cooperation between gratuitous grace of faith and works. It takes both acceptance and cooperation with God's grace of Truth for salvation to be efficacious. Based on Scripture, it's not the usual nature of God to strike us dumb with an irresistible faith.
When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally. He didn't simply “believe” in God, he was a “doer” of God's words. So, it's no wonder that James gives us the same advice, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24.) Furthermore, Paul teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (cf Phil 2:12). In short live your faith; believing is simply not enough.
So, you can see that while we agree in principle, a Catholic would say that we are redeemed by both faith and works, not by “faith alone” as is sometime heard.
JoeT
A brief explanation:
We are saved by FAITH in the completed work of Calvary. We can and MUST know this.
Our FAITH is validated by our WORKS.
Simple, yes?
JoeT777,
Very well said.
The bible tells us often that we MUST work our faith for it to ve effective.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I don’t understand, explain why God would need for those who surround me, validate the grace of faith given me? Should we go to Church, pick up our validation cards, and when asked if we have faith, show our proper “validation”? Or maybe we should cooperate with the grace given by God for love of God?
JoeT
Tj3,
Wrong ! The bible says many places and ins several ways that works are necessary
Here's and example.
We are to bear fruit. That's work.
Those who do not bear fruit will will suffer.
So Jesus says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I note that you give no reference. Perhaps you mean this one:
Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV
Note that this refers to those who bear fruit who are not saved, in which case the fruit that they bear by trying to keep the law led to death; or those who are saved bear fruit by serving the spirit - but they are first saved, so the fruit that they bear is the result of salvation.
Indeed, Jesus says that we cannot bear good fruit unless we are first saved:
John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV
Where is the verse that says that works are required for us to be saved?
Tj3,
I see that you personally interpret that your way.
Of course that is your right to do so.
Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.
So you see I agree with what that passage clearly says and demonstrates.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No interpretation. I read what God says in His words. Let's look at these passages once again:
Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV
John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV
Do you have a private interpretation that differs with the clear reading of what the Bible says? If so, please explain how you can turn the meaning of this around to say something different than the clear reading of what the passage says?
If you are doing it with Jesus' help, then you are speaking as a person who professes to be saved, thus the works are not for salvation. You defeated your own private interpretation.Quote:
Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.
If I am wrong and if in fact you are saying that you are not saved and trying to earn your salvation through works, please advise.
BTW, I note that as of yet you have not posted a single verse which says that works are required for salvation.
Tj3,
I looked at them and did not change what I said.
Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.
WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.
A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!
So the bible says. So I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And you have so far failed to explain how your private interpretation changes them to mean the opposite of what they say.
Why won't you provide us with a verse which says this?Quote:
Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.
This is speaking to those who are already saved about how they should behave as believers:Quote:
WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.
Phil 2:12-18
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. 17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me.
NKJV
Once again, works follow salvation.
Why do you keep repeating this one after your private interpretation has been refuted so many times, over so many years on so many boards?Quote:
A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!
First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?
Scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
The Devils your angel!
You are trick by your own ways who wants to be religious.
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