How would you answer this question?
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How would you answer this question?
Mary the mother of Jesus was a Jew. Born a Jew, died a Jew.
There is no mention of her in the Bible ever becoming a Christian, nor Jesus' father Joseph, who was apparently already deceased before Jesus himself was crucified. However Jesus' brothers Jude and James became followers of Christianity
She was Jewish; Jesus was Jewish... they lived in a Jewish culture governed by Rome.
Paul(a Jewish student of Greek culture) founded the religion now called Christianity years after "Jesus-a Greek word" died. "Jesus" had no intention of founding a new religion; he wanted to drastically reform Judaism(thats why the Jewish leaders wanted Rome to kill him)
I don't think jesus even cared about advancing the jewish religion, because he spoke of a new covenant, that of the holy spirit within a person, teaching him his sins, and changing him from within. Jesus often focused on the spiritual, as opposed to worldly physical rites. As far as mary being a pentecostal, maybe she played pente, or had five fingers, but it was on pentecost that the believers met and spoke in other 'tongues'. If this is what you mean, then yes, the bible plainly states this.
The Book of Acts is a proven forgery according to Biblical Scholars.
It has to be ruled out when studying the real teachings and story of "Jesus".
Wow. That's hard to swollow. Can you back that up?
I'll 3rd it. There are no reputable scholars who suggest, let alone offer "proof", that Acts is a forgery.
Define Pentecostal? If you mean that she was spirit filled, then yes, she was spirit filled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
But no, she is not a member of the Pentecostal Church. That didn't come into being until the 1900's.
Mary the mother of Jesus was the first true Christian upon whom we must all model our faith.
Jesus said that we must love God with all our heart, mind and soul. Life tells us that a mothers love for her children is the greatest love known to man.
Mary loved Jesus with the greatest love known to man. Therefore, Mary loved God with the greatest love known to man.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I used "Pentecostal" in the generic sense, which seems to be understood by those answering.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rick, You are incorrect.
The identity of the author is debated, most agree the author was a Greek Gentile writing to Gentile Christians. There is evidence to indicate that the author of The Gospel of Luke also wrote the Book of Acts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
The most direct evidence comes from the prefaces of each book. Both prefaces are addressed to Theophilus, the author's patron and perhaps a label for a Christian community as a whole as the name means "Lover of God". The preface of Acts explicitly references "my former book" about the life of Jesus almost certainly the work we know as The Gospel of Luke.
Also there are linguistic and theological similarities between the Luke and Acts. As one scholar writes,"the extensive linguistic and theological agreements and cross-references between the Gospel of Luke and the Acts indicate that both works derive from the same author" Because of their common authorship, the Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles are often jointly referred to simply as Luke-Acts.
Similarly, the author of Luke-Acts is often known as "Luke" even among scholars who doubt that the author was actually named Luke.
This link may be of interest; a scholarly and traditional Catholic view of Luke.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeCory
JoeT
You guys sure derailed this in a hurry. If Mary needed to be filled with the Holy Ghost, don't you think it might be good for us to do the same? She spoke with unlearned languages when she was filled, and so does everyone else who is filled with the Holy Ghost. Not only was Mary "Pentecostal", but all the first Church was also. "Pentecost" is an experience, not a denomination.
She was not a member pentesotal church.
Choux, how can you keep making a claim without any reference?
The Mother of Jesus was a Jewess. Her parents were Jews and all of Her ancestors.
Jesus Christ as a man was also a jew, as well as His putative father, St. Joseph, whose line of ascentry goes all the way to King David. Mary could not have been a Christian because Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ. Christians were, consequently, those who followed Jesus' Gospels and teachings AFTER He died in the Cross.
Mary, and Jesus' brothers, did EXACTLY that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
The Virgin Mary was of the house of Levite, daughter of Aaron. Known as the Lords, and care takes of The House of God. The suppose father Joseph was of the House of David. Known as the Kings. Jesus was the begotten Son of God. In all three accounts Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords on earth, that does reigns in heaven on the right hand of God.
Can anyone say the Levite priesthood was Jewish? The House of Judah was separate from the House of David. The Levite was under God's ordained calling.
Sndbay,
According to the Encyclopeadia "In the Jewish tradition, a Levite (Hebrew: לֵוִי, Standard Levi Tiberian Lēwî ; "Attached") is a member of the Hebrew tribe of Levi. When Joshua led the Israelites into the land of Canaan, the Levites were the only Israelite tribe who received cities but no tribal land "because the Lord the God of Israel himself is their possession". The Tribe of Levi served particular religious duties for the Israelites and had political responsibilities as well. In return, the landed tribes were expected to give tithe to the Levites, particularly the tithe known as the Maaser Rishon or Levite Tithe."
The House of Judah was indeed separated from the house of David. But both houses were Israelites. According to the Bible, the Israelites were the dominant group living in the Land of Israel from the time of the conquest of the territory by Joshua in c.1300 BCE until they were conquered by the Babylonians in c.586 BCE and taken into exile. They were divided in twelve tribes, each claiming descent from one of twelve sons and grandsons of Jacob. So I would say we can surely call them either Israelites or Jews.
So the question still remains The House of Judah being the Judism/Jewish tribe which Christ refer as Jews were known as the brothers to the other 10 tribes, but did not follow the same God.
In fact the Jews mocked Christ with the sign over His head on the cross saying King of the Jews, and placed the crown of thorns upon His head to mock His words that proclaimed Him, King of Israel and The Son of God..
Israelites were indeed Hebrews under command of David, and the lordship of Levites..
It remains my question as to why some say Christ was Jewish? or a Jew?
Matthew 1 and Luke 3 both give the genealogy of Jesus as the son of Judah, son of Jacob, son of Isaac. So he was of the tribe of Judah. The complicated Jewish law forbid any of the 12 tribes to intermarry, they needed to marry only a kinsman of the same tribe. Only Benjamin and Judah worshipped in King David's city along with the Levites, the other tribes worshipped elsewhere and had their own King.
No I find the scripture directly tell us Jesus generations was of The House Of David. He was born in Bethlehem which was in Judaea, but that does not offer his hertiage to the throne which was of The House of David.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary
________________________________________________
Perhaps you thinking -- Jacob sons of Racheal 1. Joseph 2. Benjamin.- Genesis 46:19... Joesph son of Jacob set as head of the House, sold original by his brothers, came to live in Egypt- Genesis 46:6... and Joseph followed in his father's Jacob's foot steps as a servant to God.- Genesis 50:25...
Joseph sons 1. Manasseth 2. Ephraism - Genesis 46:20
______________________________________________
Both accounts tell of Isaac, Jacob aka Israel, and his son Judah. Names like Joseph and Saul and were common to all families. The splitting of the Israelites into two kingdoms is covered at 1Kings 12. There was a northern and a southern kingdom, each with its own king
The thread, the thread, the thread.
1. account of nationQuote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
John 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
2. Jesus himself
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
3. Hear truth
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
This world is made up of nations, and scripture offers the Jewish, and Gentile. Both of this world..
Do you disagree with this?
After much study concerning the tribes, I can offer a 12 tribe refer breakdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
A. Jacob sons of Racheal 1. Joseph 2. Benjamin.- Genesis 46:19...
B. Jacob sons of Rachael's maid servant Bilhah 1. Dan 2. Naphtali -Genesis 46:23-25
C. Jacob sons of Leah 1. Rueban 2. Simeon 3. Levi 4. Judah 5. Issachar 6. Zebulun - Genesis 49:3 49:5 49:8 49:13 49:14
D. Jacob sons of Leah's maid servant Zipah 1. Gad 2. Asher - Genesis 46:23-24
12 Tribes of Israel -Genesis 49:28 Sons of Jacob
The House of David comes out of Jacob from wife Leah to one of six sons born, to their fourth son Judah. 2 Sa 2:10 Ishbosheth Saul's son was forty years old when he began to reign over Israel, and reigned two years. But the house of Judah followed David.
The House of Levite known to Moses and Aaron was from Jacob and Leah's third son Levi. The Virgin Mary was a daughter of Aaron.
Known on earth by nation
Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Not Jew
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Is a Jew
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Another Nation
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
The thread, sndbay.
We are talking about Pentecostals and Mary here, not Jesus.
[It has been explained to me that one gospel gives Mary's bloodline, the other traces Joseph's which if you look at them start the same but branch off at about the time of Solomon and Rehoboam.
Of course since Joseph was his adopted father and God was his actual father his human bloodline isn't all that important, right?
Nehemiah and Ezra also gives an account of how the original temple was rebuilt by the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and presided over by the Levites. The Levites had no share in Israel they inherited the Temple service. The ten other tribes were the eight tribes descended from Jacob plus Manasseh and Ephraim which together came out of Joseph. The other ten lived in Samaria.]
So I am, and I find scripture helps define the question as well as giving the answer. So many posting jump to conclusion without the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Mary holds to a nation of Truth, unto the Kingdom of God.
My point is Jews are a nation who hold to Jewish faith. Jesus said to come unto Him of such is the Kingdom of God. So Chirst holds to a nation being of the Kingdom of God. Futher more Christ tells us that His nation of people are those who hear Truth.
Even when Jesus answered Pilate, John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the Truth. Every one that is of the Truth heareth my voice.
To say Jesus or Mary are Jews is not Truth. Mary was Hebrew, she was Levite and an Israelite. In American we are a nation of Christians under one God. But what do you find within this nation of Christians? Do all people follow the Christian faith?
As to whether Mary was Penecoastal is to also believe that the Penecoastal faith is built upon, and holds to the nation which is the Kingdom of God. And Pentecostalism is a religious movement within Christianity that places special emphasis on the direct personal experience of God through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as shown in the Biblical account of the Day of Pentecost.
This still remains under a nation of Christianity in faith and a man fundamentalist religious movement.
In choice of the mind, heart and soul, Mary was a child of God who heard and followed God, not man. So she was neither Jew or Penecoastal becuase she did not follow man.
Galveston 1,
As the Pentecostal movement is so important in the USA, and fast growing in the rest of world, I will try my best to answer the question posed by
As you know, the basis of Pentecostalism is Jesus Christ, with high emphasis in the explosive power of the Holy Spirit, specially as experienced by the disciples of Christ in the Great Pentecost of Acts 2,1, with the baptism with the Holy Spirit of Act.2:4 and speaking in tongues…
This is something we Catholics also believe in.
The "two main features" of the Pentecostals are "praising the Lord" and "service", which is also accepted by Roman Catholics.
Then, the Pentecostals assert the Virgin Mary is the first Pentecostal of the NT as shown in Mat.1 and Lk. 1:
They explain that by adding that:
Of the 7 Episodes of Pentecost in the NT, the first one was in Luk.1, when the Holy Spirit came to Virgin Mary, and filled her with Jesus, which is the essence of any Pentecost... and filled with Jesus, Virgin Mary did the two things every good Pentecostal should do:
1- She went to serve her cousin Elizabeth, when she was pregnant at old age (Luk.1:39-45).
2- She praised the glories of God wit the "Magnificat" of Luk.1:46-56.
- The "second Pentecost", occurred when Elizabeth and John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit at the Virgin Marys visit (Luk.1:41).
- The "third Pentecost", the big one, was in Act.2, when the Holy Spirit came over the disciples with Virgin Mary present, and the Church was officially born to the world. This is, of course, a point of view which, in my opinion, does not affect the Basics of Christiany beliefs.
On the other hand, the Parusia or the "Second Coming of Christ", is a preferred theme for the Pentecostals, as well as for the Baptists, Evangelicals... and also for many Catholics. Do not wait until the Second Coming to be saved, "now is the acceptable time, now is the time of salvation" (2Cor.6:2), in the Second Coming, Jesus will not come "to save", but "to judge", the good ones to Heaven, and the bad ones to Hell (Matt.25:31-46, Jn.5:29, Rom.2:5-10, 2Cor.5:10, 1Thes.4:15-18, Rev.20:11-15).
There are, of course, other aspects of this movement, where Catholics and many Protestant denominations do not agree of coincide with. But this is the problem Christianity is coping with since practically the very beginning. Differences of opinion, which is funny bearing in mind we all believe in the same GOD.
But these differences aside, and looking at what I said before I guess there is no basic problem in accepting the Virgin Mary was a Pentecostal.
What would be important for this world is for all to ask first what is the Will of God. You have labeled Mary Penecoastal, a judgement far closer to man's values then to Our Father's..Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
[Galveston1 agrees: This is a good answer. Do most Catholics agree? [/QUOTE]
There are an estimated number of over a billion Catholics in the World. How can you expect me to answer your question, when here, in this Board, where we may just few a few scores, we do not get to agree on some irrelevant (in my opinion, of course) fact such as whether the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a Pentecostal?
What I wrote is strictly my own opinion, and as I often say, I may be completely wrong. Still, I can imagine that not all Catholics may agree with me. There are some Catholics, who are quite fundamentalist too, and they are still living in the times previous to the Ecumenic Council II.
For instance, there are many who would love to celebrate the Mass in Latin, as it was done before, and with the priest facing the Altar, not the attendants...
Snd,Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I don't understand. He practiced the Jewish faith and HE was a Jew. (I remember once you said moses wasn't a Jew.) Are you suggesting that Jesus is not a JEW?
Jhn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? Because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come...
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Was not jesus' father abraham also?
Jesus practiced the Jewish faith, he taught and worshiped in the temple. In fact he called the temple his Fathers house, when he threw out the money changers.
Using the current meaning of "Pentacostal", she would be called Neo-Pentacostal or Charismatic.(non-denominational)
She knew that God was still active in the affairs of man and so could accept the words of an angel which were in accordance with the Scripture and could accept that God's plan for her would be accomplished through her.
I agree mostly. Certainly there was no such thing as a Cristian "denomination" when the Holy Ghost fell on those believers on that day of Pentecost. Believers were not even called "Christians" until later.Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
Frankly, I do not consider the name "Pentecostal" to mean a member of any denomination, even though there are several that incorporate it into their official names. Since many in those denominations have never been filled with the Holy Spirit, those members are not "Pentecostal" in fact.
I think Mary could not care less on how we label her . She could very well answear us like this '' All I know is that I gave birth to Jesus Christ , I am His mother!''
Here's one more question? Was Peter or Paul or any of Jesus' apostles Pentecostal?
And one more... Were they Catholics?
And one more... Were they Orthodox?
And one more... Were they anything else than Christians ( Christ's followers and believers)?
Were they baptized by the Holly Spirit?Yes they were ! Does this make them Pentecostals?Certainly not!
The question is not if those people were like Pentecostals or Catholics or Orthodox or anything else that we call ourselves but the question should be if we all are like them?
We call those people our fathers in faith, so we should be like them and not the other way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
I think you have hit the only point that really matters in this post that has been dragging for so long.
Are we like them, irrespective of how we wish to call them? The answer, of course, is that we are certainly NOT. Unfortunately, there is plenty of room to improve on our side and though we are well aware as to how to do it, we seem to be unable to follow their example!
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