What does the Immaculate Conception mean and is it in the Bible?
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What does the Immaculate Conception mean and is it in the Bible?
The doctrines of the Catholic Church need not be EXPLICITLY in Scripture. It is enough that they don't contradict Scripture and are consistent with Scripture.
The doctrine of the Immaculate conception is one of those. This doctrine says that Mary 1. was born without original sin and
2. never committed sin in her life.
Does Scripture say that Mary was born without Original Sin?
For that we must know what is Original Sin? Original Sin is the absence of Original Justice.
What is Original Justice? Original Justice is the condition in which Adam and Eve were created. They were created in a condition of friendship with God.
Adam and Eve lost Original Justice when they betrayed God by listening to Satan's suggestions rather than to God's command. At that moment they entered a condition of Original Sin. A condition of opposition with God.
When Adam and Eve lost Original Justice, they lost the condition of friendship with God and could no longer pass it down. Man now had to earn that condition by making a conscious effort to turn to God.
However, even in this condition, Scripture says that men existed who did not sin:
Romans 5 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
This takes care of condition #2. If men have existed who did not commit sin as Adam had done, then it is consistent with Scripture that Mary could as well.
But how about Original Sin, was Mary born in a condition of opposition to God? According to the Protoevangelium, the first Gospel, Jesus would be born of a woman and that woman would be the enemy of Satan.
Genesis 3 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Therefore, since God has always destined the mother of Jesus to be the enemy of Satan, we believe that she was born without original sin.
There is another verse which says that Mary is the Kecharitomene. Its kind of complicated, so I'll let you read it here:
The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)
Sincerely,
De Maria
Why did adam and eve sin? Didn't they have it perfect, so they
Could have just told satan where to go? It's because they were
Tempted by their own lust, pride, etc. that's why satan didn't
Shove the apple in their mouths, because he only had to entice
Their will. Same with mary, she was not born without this ability
To be enticed through her will.
It is not in the Bible. It is Tradition. Not unlike the doctrine of the Trinity: Not in the bible, but recognized as truth.
Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(KJV)
Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(KJV)
Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)
These verses certainly seem to be all-inclusive. For you to say that Mary was born different from everyone else has no basis in scripture or logic. Mary was also present on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was given to the Churh, and she spoke with "tongues" as did the other believers present that day. She was a PENTECOSTAL!
I will ask the same question here that I asked in another thread. If you say you accept the Bible as the Word of God, then how can you also say that tradition or dogma is equal to the Bible? Did God say what He means? I submit that you can't have it both ways, because that becomes mutually contridictory.
Do you believe then, that every single person without exception has sinned? Have little children who died in the womb sinned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Do babies sin who die before the age of reason?Quote:
These verses certainly seem to be all-inclusive.
Pentecostals did not exist until the 1900's. Mary was the first Christian.Quote:
For you to say that Mary was born different from everyone else has no basis in scripture or logic. Mary was also present on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was given to the Churh, and she spoke with "tongues" as did the other believers present that day. She was a PENTECOSTAL!
Because the Bible says so:Quote:
I will ask the same question here that I asked in another thread. If you say you accept the Bible as the Word of God, then how can you also say that tradition or dogma is equal to the Bible?
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
We believe the entire Bible. We believe 2 Thess 2:14 just as strongly as we believe every other part of the Bible.Quote:
Did God say what He means? I submit that you can't have it both ways, because that becomes mutually contridictory.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Can you prove that Mary sinned?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Perhaps I can clarify my question. When dogma is contrary to scripture, which takes precedent?
All:
The doctrine of Immaculate Mary was first recognized by Pope Pius IX in his pronouncement:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854
Which was re-affirmed by Vatican II, finding Mary free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. 1 Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death .( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59
And
Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 66)
How is this “contrary” to Scripture?
JoeT
Recognized by some denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
I cannot prove that mary sinned. You cannot prove she did not sin. Only god knows. How can you tell if anyone you know has sinned or not? If you have never seen them sin, you might conclude they have never sinned, nor will ever. But in my own life, I have sinned, and the people I have been around have sinned. That's the whole reason jesus came to atone for, our sins. Mary had the holy spirit available to her. I hope god helped her walk closer to himself. What was available to her, is available to ourselves. May we hope to be as holy as you're saying mary was.
Recognize this?Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)
Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)
This is what I am talking about. Dogma says Mary was not concluded under sin. Which will you believe?
Does your Bible say Mary ascended to Heaven? Mine doesn't. Again, do you believe Bible or dogma?
If Mary is not included in the "all" of unbelief above, then she cannot be included in the "all" receiving mercy.
Can you explain? I don't understand how these verses deal with Rick's commentsQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Unknown as scripture as it is posted, DeMaria.. Where did you get this?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
KJV God is talking to satan..
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
God is still talking to satan
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; [ it ] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Eve was beguiled by satan.. God will put enmity between satan and Eve, and between satan's seed and Eve's seed.. [It] meaning Eve's seed will bruise satan's head, and satan shalt only bruise His heel...
Proof of beguiled... There was no apple...
Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. KJV
II Corinthians11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
Who was satan's seed. The first murderer in the beginning, and why didn't God find favor in his fruits?
John 8:4 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Eve's seed would bring forth the generations to Abraham Isaac, Jacob.. on to the birth of Christ. thr the daughters of Aaron Levite Priest.. plus [the supposed father] of Jesus, Joseph.. This is the meaning of ( King of Kings, And Lord of Lords)
That is why Eve was called the mother of all living.. Because Christ would come thr the generations.
Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
This is not a debate.. This is Truth
But why would Mary be included in “unbelief” when she was told by Gabriel that she would bear the Son of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
JoeT
These verses show the three in "One" Trinity is a word description of the three in One.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.
On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One.
So finish the thought…and this has to deal with …and it means…? If you make me put words in your mouth, you'll find yourself turning Catholic all of a sudden.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
The Words in those scriptures posted are the Spirit of Truth which say all that is necessary. Read the scriptures. Who would man be to think he can or could say it better then what God, Himself has offered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
And I need not be anything other then a child of God who follows Christ Jesus.
We consider this a prophecy of Mary and Jesus. God is telling Satan that He will be crushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Mary being the woman who bore a Son. Her seed. In the Douay version based on St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate, Mary crushes Satan's head by giving birth to the Saviour.
In the other versions based on the Greek Septuagint, Mary gives birth to the Saviour and He crushes Satan's head.
Eve had no seed of her own. It was Semitic custom to name the Father's seed. Only Mary is ever called the Woman with seed.Quote:
Eve was beguiled by satan.. God will put enmity between satan and Eve, and between satan's seed and Eve's seed.. [It] meaning Eve's seed will bruise satan's head, and satan shalt only bruise His heel...
But Mary was not beguiled. And Jesus is her seed.Quote:
Proof of beguiled... There was no apple...
Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. KJV
II Corinthians11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
But you forgot to mention Mary, who is the Mother of those who keep the Commandments of God:Quote:
Who was satan's seed. The first murderer in the beginning, and why didn't God find favor in his fruits?
John 8:4 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Eve's seed would bring forth the generations to Abraham Isaac, Jacob.. on to the birth of Christ. thr the daughters of Aaron Levite Priest.. plus [the supposed father] of Jesus, Joseph.. This is the meaning of ( King of Kings, And Lord of Lords)
That is why Eve was called the mother of all living.. Because Christ would come thr the generations.
Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
This is not a debate.. This is Truth
Apocalypse 12 17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And the Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ:
Luke 1 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
And He just happens to be God:
Luke 1 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Sincerely,
De Maria
All seriousness aside: I interpret the use of these scriptures to mean:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
• 1 John 5:6-7: Christ came by blood and water [the blood he shared with his mother in the womb and the embryonic waters of his mother’s womb]. The Spirit breathed life into him [he was conceived by the Holy Spirit]. All of which was witnessed by the Holy Trinity.
• 1 John 5:8: Considering the preceding verse this means the Trinity recorded this event and revealed them to Peter.
That wasn’t so hard after all. Is this what you mean by the Scriptures are all that is necessary?
Seriously, wouldn’t clear communication be made better by stating your beliefs and support them with Scripture?
JoeT.
I can - she said that she needed a Saviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Wisdom is The Father of Truth, give ear to wisdom.
Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Proverbs 8:14 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Due 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Twisting of scripture ( watch for it )
Warning of satan followers, full of pride which God hates (proverbs 8:14)
Deu 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
This is talking about satan followers, they twist scripture (perverse) just as satan exampled in his tempting with Christ..Matthew 4... Watch for twisting or perversed scripture in these postings.
1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Door Closed withdraw
Let's go at this from a different perspective. It is obvious that you believe that Mary was perfect, without sin. How did she attain to this? If you say immaculate conception, then EVERY mother back to Eve would have to be able to so conceive, but we know Eve could not. (Do you know that there is a harlot in Mary's ancestry?) If you say that Mary was righteous by her own efforts, then you destroy the need for a Saviour. If one human can be sinless by their own efforts, then anyone can be sinless by their own works. You know that is not possible. Either argument falls flat, whether you look at it from a Biblical view or from reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Face it. Mary was a virtuous girl who kept the Law as well as she could. She was honored by God's selection of her to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. She was conceived just like everyone else, and born the same. She was there with the rest of the obedient believers when the Holy Ghost was given to the Church, and she spoke with "tongues" like the rest of them.
I certainly honor and respect Mary. I'm just not accepting any "immaculate conception" or bodily assumption for Mary. She will be resurrected and rise with the rest of those who died in faith.
Correction. She said that God was her Saviour. Past tense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Luke 1 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Who said that she attained to this by her own efforts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Please explain. Are you saying that there is one way to salvation for Mary and another for the rest of us? No one was justified by the Law, and that is what everyone lived under until the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore Mary could not have been justified under the Law.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
"By a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ" she is protected from sin. She was “full” of grace. Like a container, every void was filled with grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
It was a grace from God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
That's illogical. How if one person, of their own will, decides to become the Lord's handmaiden, then all would be Eve? While I would agree that Mary was the “new” Eve, I don't think I mentioned it. I thought it might be too complicated to explain in this format. Why do you bring it up here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
What's being suggested here? If this is headed where I think it is, you can save your insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
You're letting your Protestant raising show through. Who said she was righteous of her own volition? It has never been suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Did it ever occur to you that if Christ wasn't born of Mary, then we wouldn't have had a Savior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
These concepts were never offered as evidence of the truth; so yes it falls flat, but only because you've misstated elemental concepts in the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
This is what I face:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
"[I embrace] the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
JoeT
If Mary was not born with original Sin why did she have to die then? As God said the wages of sin is Death, Mary lived 9 years more after Jesus was Crucified then died. So she had to Die like everyone else, I can only assume she is also one of adam and Eve's seed just like we are. Its just that, she was a virgin when she was engaged to Joseph, so she was without " Sexual Sin " and was conceived by the holy spirit and gave birth to Jesus Christ.
First - where do you see past tense? My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour also - are you saying that I also am born without sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
See if the following response helps explain:Quote:
Originally Posted by In Sorrow
Eve…”having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22
And remembering that salvation includes being risen, body and soul, into heaven we see why many believe in the Assumption of Mary into heaven.
Irenaeus goes on to say,”… also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22, 4
St. Jerome adds that, “In those days, as I have said, the virtue of continence was found only in men: Eve still continued to travail with children. But now that a virgin has conceived (Isaiah 7:14) in the womb and has borne to us a child of which the prophet says that Government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6) now the chain of the curse is broken. Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary. And thus the gift of virginity has been bestowed most richly upon women, seeing that it has had its beginning from a woman. As soon as the Son of God set foot upon the earth, He formed for Himself a new household there; that, as He was adored by angels in heaven, angels might serve Him also on earth.” St. Jerome, Epistle 22, par. 21
In my opinion this best describes the new Eve. (Cf. CCC, 494)
JoeT
Interesting that scripture attributes the cause of salvation to Jesus, while you chose a quote attributing it to MaryQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
This is contrary to scripture. Where in scripture do we find anything remotely suggesting that Mary was assumed?Quote:
And remembering that salvation includes being risen, body and soul, into heaven we see why many believe in the Assumption of Mary into heaven.
Again, scripture says that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. I wonder why men try to replace Jesus with Mary.Quote:
Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary.
Romans 5:14-19
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
NKJV
Do you know that there are even Bibles that change "he" to "she" in Genesis 3:15 to make it appear that it is Mary who crushes the head of Satan?
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV
Mary was saved by Jesus sacrifice on the Cross. Just like every body else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
The only difference is that Jesus, in obedience to God the Father, honored His mother by permitting her justification before she was conceived.
This is a justification by GRACE. That is what kecharitomene means. Full of Grace from the beginning of her being.
Sincerely,
De Maria
What is the Bible passage that supports this, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That's because you don't have the "Offical Scriptures", the Vulgate which read as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Gen 3:14, Et ait Dominus Deus ad serpentem:
Quia fecisti hoc, maledictus es inter omnia animantia, et bestias terræ: super pectus tuum gradieris, et terram comedes cunctis diebus vitæ tuæ.
15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem,
et semen tuum et semen illius:
ipsa conteret caput tuum,
et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.
Translated by Douay as follows:
Gen 3:14, And the Lord God said to the serpent:
Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Obviously you don’t have an “official” bible. Check out the Council of Trent, I think its session 4; it lists the “official” bible and what books go into it.
Which Council was the KJV "made offical"?
JoeT
Its in Scripture:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Luke 1 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Here Scripture is telling you that it is because of Mary's obedience to God's Word that Jesus was born to her. Jesus is our Savior. But without Mary's cooperation, He would not have been born.
Therefore, the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS interpreted Scripture to mean that both Jesus and Mary were the cause of Salvation. If Mary had said no, Jesus would not have been born and we would die in our sins.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:Quote:
This is contrary to scripture. Where in scripture do we find anything remotely suggesting that Mary was assumed?
And we find that this idea of assumption to heaven is not contrary to Scripture:
Enoch was assumed:
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
So was Elijah:
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Who is trying to replace Jesus with Mary. We are simply obeying the Scripture which says:Quote:
Again, scripture says that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. I wonder why men try to replace Jesus with Mary.
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
So although you want to thumb your nose at the Mother of God, we note that even God sent an Angel to praise her:
Luke 1 26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
If God Himself finds Mary worthy of praise, why do you belittle her?
Romans 5:14-19
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,....
I believe that is based on the most ancient Bible known. St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate.Quote:
Do you know that there are even Bibles that change "he" to "she" in Genesis 3:15 to make it appear that it is Mary who crushes the head of Satan?
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV
In either case, the logical ramification is the same. Either Mary crushed Satan by giving birth to Jesus. Or Jesus crushed Satan after being born of Mary.
Same difference.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Luke 1 26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
In Greek, Kecharitomene, she who is always graced.
The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)
Sincerely,
De Maria
I not only have the official scriptures (they are not from your denomination!). And the official scripture are clear that it is is HE (Jesus) who crushes the head of Satan - both in the local context and if that is not enough - the gospel is clear that it is Jesus alone who defeated satan.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I don't believe that you actually read this. It does not say that at all. And scripture does not contradict itself. The quote from Romans is explicit in gthat it is Jersus not Mary that brought about salvation through obedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You have a low view of God. God would not have been stymied if Mary did not cooperate.Quote:
Jesus is our Savior. But without Mary's cooperation, He would not have been born.
And the Gospel is clear that Jesus is born of Mary. And if Mary had not born Jesus, we would die in our sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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