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When St. Elizabeth greets Mary the Mother of Jesus, she says:
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
I believe she is recognizing that Jesus is God and therefore means Mother of my God.
What do you think she means?
Lord simply means a person in authority. It's use is not exclusive to God. If you want to see someone refer to God, look at what Thomas said:
John 20:27-28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV
If "my lord" meant "My God", then Thomas would not have added the "My God" comment. But He did because it is important to note that Jesus is not just Lord (which could mean that He was just a man with authority), but He is also God.
Mary is referred to as "mother of my lord", not "mother of God" or "mother of my God". She was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not the mother of His divinity. Jesus' divinity pre-existed Mary and therefore she could not have been the mother of God.
Yes I agree with Tj. 1 Pet 3:6 speaks of Sarah calling her husband Abraham "Lord" but I'm sure she didn't think he was God. It was a sign of respect and recognision of authority as Tj mentioned.
That is a Hebrewism. Thomas is simply emphasizing that Jesus is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Why else would she speak of the child in Mary's womb as a person in authority?Quote:
Mary is referred to as "mother of my lord", not "mother of God" or "mother of my God". She was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not the mother of His divinity. Jesus' divinity pre-existed Mary and therefore she could not have been the mother of God.
Are you saying that Elizabeth is denying that Jesus is God?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Does anybody think that Abraham is God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
What do people mean when they say, "Jesus is Lord!"?
Sincerely,
De Maria
That is your assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Jews, in Hebrew use the word "YHWH" which has been translated as Lord in the OT in many Bibles. It is, however, not the only word translated as lord, which is why you find that when it is YHWH that is translated as "lord", most Bibles put it in capital letters as "LORD".
In the NT, you will see that God is often referred to as lord, but so are others who are not God. That is why we find frequently use of the term "Lord God" to designate who is being referred to. We also find other indiactions when it is God. But lord does not always means God in either the OT or NT. Examples of exceptions are:
2 Sam 24:3
3 And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?"
NKJV
Note the contrast between the submission to the lordship (authority) or God versus the lordship (authority) of the king? This is not suggesting that the king was God or thought to be a god, but rather it refers to the authority.
Matt 25:19-20
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
NKJV
Again, the lord of the servants - basically their boss.
The same is true of the House of Lords in Britain - are they all gods? Or is it with reference to their authority? Any person can be a lord, but there is only one who can be called "My Lord and My God".
Let's look at the dictionary definition:
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Lord
1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.
2. a person who exercises authority from property rights; an owner of land, houses, etc.
3. a person who is a leader or has great influence in a chosen profession: the great lords of banking.
4. a feudal superior; the proprietor of a manor.
5. a titled nobleman or peer; a person whose ordinary appellation contains by courtesy the title Lord or some higher title.
6. Lords, the Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal comprising the House of Lords.
7. (initial capital letter) (in Britain)
a. the title of certain high officials (used with some other title, name, or the like): Lord Mayor of London.
b. the formally polite title of a bishop: Lord Bishop of Durham.
c. the title informally substituted for marquis, earl, viscount, etc. as in the use of Lord Kitchener for Earl Kitchener.
8. (initial capital letter) the Supreme Being; God; Jehovah.
9. (initial capital letter) the Savior, Jesus Christ.
10. Astrology. A planet having dominating influence.
–interjection
11. (often initial capital letter) (used in exclamatory phrases to express surprise, elation, etc.): Lord, what a beautiful day!
—Idiom
12. lord it, to assume airs of importance and authority; behave arrogantly or dictatorially; domineer: to lord it over the menial workers.
(Source: Dictionary.com)
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Notice that every definition refers to a position of authority. Only 8 and 9 are specific to God, and even then it only refers to how Bibles choose to translate a present the text with all capitalization when, for example, YHWH is translated to LORD in the Old Testament.
So, No, despite your claim, "My Lord" does not mean the same as "My God"
They can mean many things. Some do not believe that He is God and are simply referring to His authority which they claim is simply delegated by God. Others speak of His authority as God. But in both cases, it is in reference to His authority, not His nature. Unless we had the specific indication in scripture that he is God, if all scripture said was that Jesus is a "lord", we would be hard pressed to claim, as a doctrine that He is God. The reason that we know for a fact that Jesus is God is because, from Genesis to Revelation, we are told that Jesus is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
All:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Holding the view that Mary was NOT the mother of God is akin to the error Nestroianism. Nestorius (circa 425 A.D.) held the unorthodox view that the essence(s) of Christ were separated into two natures, the man Jesus and the God that was Christ. In failing to recognize that Mary is the Mother of God, this leads to the rejection of theotokos (Mother of God) replacing it with (Giving Birth to Christ) khristotokos. The Council of Ephesus rejected Nestorianism in 431 A.D.
To claim that Mary only carried the human nature of Christ is the same error. Mary didn't give birth to the nature of a child; she gave birth to the person of Christ.
Concluding, we see that by holding Christ as God, then Mary is the Mother of God. Hence, St. Elizabeth being in the presence of God, exclaimed to Mary, “…the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
JoeT
No it is not. No one is saying that Jesus is separated into two natures, but rather accepting the reality that Jesus is God and always was God who took upon Himself human flesh. He is therefore fully God and fully human, but was not always human. This doctrine is summarized in scripture:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV
On the other hand, to claim that Mary is the mother of God expresses, in essence, 3 heresies:
1) Denial of the Trinity
If one argues that Mary is mother of God by giving birth to Jesus because Jesus is God, then the argument actually also by default says that God is Jesus. The second is a heresy because it omits the truth that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
2) Denial of the Eternal pre-existence of God
The claim that Mary is mother of God presumes that she pre-existed God. If she is in fact the vessel through whom jesus entered the world in the flesh, it expresses the Biblical truth that the eternal son of God also became man when born of Mary.
3) Exaltation of Mary to Godhood
If Mary was the mother of God, she also had to be God.
If you say that she gave birth to Christ, are you saying that Jesus was not Christ prior to His birth?
It is amazing how the same word can merely mean a person in Authority, so that is all Jesus is to you all, a person in authority?
And is it not the same wordas used in Luke 1:25, when he was speaking of God, or perhaps some other man of authority did all the works in Luke 1.
How silly one will not take the obvious use of the bible because the doctrine of your denomination refused to accept the bibical teachings of the Catholic Church.
1. About the most silly teaching, because Mary gave Birth to Jesus, that denies the entire trinity??Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, it means to many of the newer man created doctrines wishes to put limits on Gods power by defining a limit on what God can do in the creation of the Trinity, and of course forget that it is the Same Catholic church that helped in the defining of the Trinity. So in no way would they deny the trinity. What it does mean is that if the Trinity does exisit ( and it does) then that baby was Jesus , was God and was the Holy Spirit, and the baby had to be born,? So what else is Mary but the mother to all.
2. And again, there was not always a baby in her womb, it was created and Mary gave birth, he was not hatched, he was not beamed down, So Mary gave birth to Jesus, and thus ends that silly idea
3. Mary is honored and the bibie itself says she is blessed above all women, No one calls her a God,
Trying to show it as heresies merely goes to show the false nature of your claims to be any catholic expert at all, and in fact proves somewhat a false advertising since it is obvoius you know nothing of the true meaning and faith.
To believe in anything other than Theotokos is to believe that Jesus Christ was made and not begotten:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, both those in heaven and those in the earth. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man. He suffered, and rose again the third day. He ascended into the heavens, from thence he shall come to judge both the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost: But those that say, There was a time when he was not, and, before he was begotten he was not, and that he was made of that which previously was not, or that he was of some other substance or essence; and that the Son of God was capable of change or alteration; those the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes. Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)
And
If anyone says that the Emmanuel is true God, and not rather God with us, that is, that he has united himself to a like nature with ours, which he assumed from the Virgin Mary, and dwelt in it; and if anyone calls Mary the mother of God the Word, and not rather mother of him who is Emmanuel; and if he maintains that God the Word has changed himself into the flesh, which he only assumed in order to make his Godhead visible, and to be found in form as a man, let him be anathema. . Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)
JoeT
You missed what I said. I was quite clear about the nature of Jesus. Scripture is also quite clear. I also do not think that scripture errs in the description that is given of Mary's role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Let me try an analogy for you. If you ran a packaging company and you were sent widgets to package, would it be correct to call you the manufacturer of the widgets because you put the widgets in the final packaging? Of course not, and a similar situation is true here. Jesus did not change - He was, and is and always has been, and always will be God. Mary was the vessel through whom He entered the world in the flesh.
Scripture is right to call her "mother of my lord" rather than "mother of God".
I have no denomination. I stand by what God's word says and that is why I reject the doctrine - it has nothing to do with what denomination put forward the doctrine. I would reject the doctrine on the basis of what scripture says regarding of whether your denomination says it, or Baptists, or Lutheran or any other denomination. The authority of God's word overrides any denominational authority. That is because God is Lord.Quote:
How silly one will not take the obvious use of the bible because the doctrine of your denomination refused to accept the bibical teachings of the Catholic Church.
Is God limited to being just Jesus? That is a form of modalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
That is right - the baby (flesh) that Mary gave birth to was created. God was not. Mary therefore cannot be the mother of God.Quote:
2. And again, there was not always a baby in her womb, it was created and Mary gave birth, he was not hatched, he was not beamed down, So Mary gave birth to Jesus, and thus ends that silly idea
Mary was indeed honoured to be chosen by God to be the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world. And whether anyone calls her God, if she is the mother of God, that effectively makes her God. One of the doctors of the RCC, Alphonse Liguori gives Mary the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. He says that she must be worshiped and that even God bends His knee to Her. Sounds pretty much like he is making her God.Quote:
3. Mary is honored and the bibie itself says she is blessed above all women, No one calls her a God,
Jesus was careful to keep the distinction between Himself and the Father clear. While on Earth, he BECAME man, the firstborn among MANY Brethren.
Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(KJV)
Jesus did no works or teaching other than by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(KJV)
If He needed the anointing of the Spirit of the Lord, then He was not functioning as God, therefore Mary is not the mother of God, but of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 13:55 we see the clansmen of Christ, called brothers and sisters as was the custom, who were children of Mary of Cleophas, sister of the Ever Virgin Mary: refer to Matt 27:56, and John 19:25. With proper Hermeneutics we see in the Old Testament the word “brother” to express a broad kinship or clanship as well as the word indicating siblings. Following are selected thought from St. Jerome who argued vehemently that to hold that Christ had siblings was an error:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
17. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
If we were to argue for the literal interpretation of brother so as to insist on Jesus having siblings in this instance, then wouldn’t that redefine John 19:26-27? Jesus says to John, “Behold thy Mother.” Being redefined in our errant insistence on a literal interpretation would add John to James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude as siblings of Christ; which of course is nonsense.
Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that moment Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy. Being literally full of grace, would we, could we, expect less.
I’ll go a step further, not only was Mary Ever Virgin, so was Joseph.
… Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication… the conclusion is that [Joseph] who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
Mary is Ever Virgin.
JoeT
Joe,
You are posting on the wrong thread.
Tom
I agree my post was a bit off topic. But, I was responding to Galveston1 comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
I don't see the relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Why else would she speak of the child in Mary's womb as a person in authority?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Are you saying that Elizabeth is denying that Jesus is God?
Galveston1 brought it up. He simply followed that line of thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I think Joe mis-understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh! We have been through this loop so many times. You keep asking this question and it keeps getting answered. So I cannot believe that you are serious in asking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?
Hopefully yes.
Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.
Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.
Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.
God was not created.
As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.
Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.
Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.
Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.
Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.
I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.
You keep avoiding the questions. Just answer them directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
EXACTLY!! Mary's role is mother of God.Quote:
Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?
Hopefully yes.
Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.
AMEN!!Quote:
Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.
Correct.Quote:
Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.
God was not created.
Bravo Fr Chuck!!Quote:
As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.
Oooooh too bad. You were so close. Mary did give birth to God. Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus. Therefore, Mary gave birth to God.Quote:
Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.
Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.
It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.
Are you saying, that inspired by the Holy Spirit, she meant "how does the mother of my human authority come to me?" Then why did the child, John the Baptist, jump in her womb?Quote:
Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.
Because He is God. If Jesus were simply a man, I wouldn't be a Christian and I would not call Him Lord. Simple as that.Quote:
Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.
Would you?
Are you saying that Jesus was not God when He was born?Quote:
Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.
When did He lose His Divinity, when He was conceived in Her womb?
The logic is very simple.Quote:
I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
And St. Elizabeth recognized that Mary is the Mother of God and therefore called her the Mother of my Lord.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I can post them, but unless you read'em...Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.Quote:
Mary did give birth to God.
Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion. But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.
You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.
Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:Quote:
The logic is very simple.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.
Now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.
Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.
I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.
Post what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:Quote:
See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.
Quote:
Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.
It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.
Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.Quote:
Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion.
When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.Quote:
But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.
You answered them before?Quote:
You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.
No. You skipped over those portions of my message.Quote:
Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:
1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.
That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God. But that isn't the Catholic Teaching. Mary is the mother of Jesus therefore she is the mother of God.Quote:
now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.
Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.
You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.Quote:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.
But that isn't true. Mary is the Mother of God because you can't say that Jesus was ever not God. And Mary is Jesus' mother. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
As Luther would put it:
"God did not derive his Divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's Mother . . . She is the true Mother of God and Bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc."
"For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . .just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
Deployment journey: The veneration of Mary isn't as offensive to Protestant reformers as I was led to believe
There is no fallacy in my approach. Your approach seems much like the Muslim approach.Quote:
I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sigh! Please read the previous posts and keep up with the thread. We were talking about the answers that I keep posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then she cannot be mother of God.Quote:
Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:
That is your claim. But we are still waiting for your proof from scripture that she pre-existed God and gave birth to the trinity.Quote:
Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.
Again, your claim. Facts are not created because you declare them to be so.Quote:
When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.
See what I mean - I can answer them (as I have), but unless you read 'em...Quote:
You answered them before?
That was my point - these syllogisms of yours may be cute, but they omit some key details that invalidate them logically.Quote:
That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God.
Again, please stick with defending your position rather than trying to mis-represent and attack my faith.Quote:
You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.
A = Gabriel said to Mary, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus (C.f. Luke 1). So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave brth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. We can confidently say Mary is a Mother. Do we believe it; sure we do!
B = Gabriel continued saying that He, “born of thee shall be called the Son of God … Son of the Most High…And the child grew and was strengthened in spirit (C.f. Luke 1). We can confidently say, Mary gave birth to God; the Son of God, Son of the Most High, the second person in the Triune. Do we believe it; sure we do!
So, we can examine the axiomatic property of closure and say that the sum of A+B=C
Mary is a Mother + Mary births God = C ===>>> Holy Mary is Mother of God !
Do we believe it, sure we do! It’s in the Bible. Now that we’ve finished with the hard math, let’s turn to something a little easier.
Biblical meaning of Lord = God.
Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith teach from scripture; when Elizabeth asked why, “the mother of my Lord should come to me?” We can assertively say that Elizabeth was addressing, “the Mother of God.” Why? Because it’s in the Bible.
[Corollary: Now get this; with A, B and given that the throne of David will be given to Him by God! Consider, Throne ->authority -> keys –> get it? We’ll do this one some other time; just thought I’d point it out.]
All of which might help explain why we call the Blessed Virgin Mary,
Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God
Most honored of virgins
Mother of Christ
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mother most pure
Mother of Chaste love
Sinless Mother
Virgin most wise
Virgin rightly praised
Cause of our joy
And why we say:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
I hope the logic wasn’t too much.
JoeT
You said:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "
Your (faulty) logic is:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.
But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!
Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV
So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
I don't buy it. It is a heresy because God pre-existed Mary, and Jesus was God from eternity (Micah 5:2). But if you are going to use that faulty syllogism, this is where it leads.
Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.
Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceived God. God already existed.
Sorry, but I do not base my doctrine on the tradition of your denomination, but rather I base my doctrine on scripture.Quote:
Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith...
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
KJV
BTW, what was Mary Queen of, according to you?
Fr Chuck,
I agree with you 100% on that.
It is silly that people will try to twist what the bible says just because they disagree with Catholic teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
No, that's not what I said. What I said was, “Holy Mary is Mother of God.” (It contained 21 letters and was divided into six words.)Quote:
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
It's not for sale.Quote:
I don't buy it.
So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)Quote:
Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.
Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceive God. God already existed.
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
Tj3,
For some reason your posts seem to say that you do not believe that "with God all things are possible."
You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.
I find your post denying that silly and amazing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Yes, to deny that Jesus was born of a virgin and her name was Mary, is to deny part of the bible. To deny that Jesus is Lord and Saviour is to deny part of the bible.
And if we do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then there would be no real salvation coming from his death.
And if he is not True God, then there is no real Trinity.
A person can not really have it both ways, if Mary gave birth to Jesus and the bible tells us this is true, she was and is his mother.
Sadly arcura this sounds like almost cut and paste out of some of those "chick publications" that spew hate of many christian groups. Sadly too many groups have less teachings of their own and more teachings against other groups.
That is what YOU said. Scripture says that nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Good! Then I hope that you will understand that God was not conceived by Mary.Quote:
Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
No I said nothing of the sort - reread.Quote:
So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)
Byut I note that you avoid the question that I asked. Let me ask it again:
You said:
"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "
Your (faulty) logic is:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.
But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!
Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV
So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
It is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.
Answer the question.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Just because all things all possible with God, does not mean that God must do all things. That is a logic fallacy.
Scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus. Did Mary conceive God? Using your "logic", it is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.Quote:
You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.
Joe apparently did not want to answer that question - can you?
Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.
Catholic teaching (and some others) miss the fact of Jesus' HUMANITY. Jesus was NOT God in disguise, teaching and working as the Almighty, but rather as perfect man anointed by the Holy Ghost. The Son left Heaven to become ONE OF US, otherwise He could not have been the "kinsman redeemer". If He were not man, then His sacrifice on the cross would have been invalid. The sacrificial lamb had to be ONE OF THE FLOCK. He had to be human. If that were not so, then explain this part of His prayer to His Father:
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)
This clearly shows that Jesus did NOT have that glory that He once had, and needed to have restored to Him. You fail to see the difference between The Son in Heaven, and The Son on Earth.
Jesus is not divided. Jesus is man and God. There is not one Jesus who is man and another who is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Sure. Mary conceived God the Son in her womb. But Mary did not conceive Eternal God in her womb. That would be impossible by definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.
Here's the question for you, did God take flesh in her womb?
She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.Quote:
Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes I can answer the question. But, just to be clear ask it again.
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
Tj3,
Perhaps you should star reading the bible fir what is says. It does tell us clearly that Mary us the mother of Jesus Christ the God/man not what you say.
For some reason you can not understand what the bible clearly says about that.
By denying that Mary is the Mother of God The Son you are denying that Jesus is divine.
It is a simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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