If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?
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If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?
Well, since the question is not posted as requiring an answer from the trinitarian viewpoint I will provide the unitarian viewpoint.
It has absolutely no effect on the value of the ransom sacrifice since all that was needed in order to redeem mankind was the death of a perfect blameless man as Adam was before he sinned. The death of a demigod or a God-man was unnecessary for redemption. That's why Jesus is called the last Adam, because he was physically Adam's equivalent.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Now if Adam would have been half man half God, then we would have lost more than perfect human life and would have needed a demigod to die for us. But such was not the case. The article found at the site link provided explains it in detail.
BiblicalUnitarian.com - Christianity 101: Two Adams
Jesus Christ is the Last Adam, a man like Adam who could undo what Adam did. The Last... relationship between the "first Adam" and the "Last Adam." Even modern biblical...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/mod...rticle&sid=163
BTW
Being part of creation is not a defect. The angels are part of God's creation and are holy.
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Heaven is part of God's creation and is the holy abode of God.
I'd also like to make clear that I am in no way judging anyone's relationship with the creator based on their individual understanding of these matters.
Hi,
Salvation is:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in Him......."
Starman, Could the reference made to Jesus and Adam also be along the lines that Adam illustrates a separation from GOD, which is in effect "Hell". Jesus represents the path back to GOD or "Heaven.":confused:
In my opinion, this cannot really be answered. If Jesus were a created being, then nearly every basic tenet of Christianity would have to be not just re-written, bu thrown out.Quote:
Originally Posted by vincestyle
If a significant teaching such as the Deity of Christ were shown to be wrong, then any and all teachings of Christianity should be questioned.
From a trinitarian viewpoint that would be so, but not from a unitarian viewpoint. Trinitarians are not the only Christians. Not all Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision of the Council of Nicene at that time it was issued and not all Christians accept it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
BTW
It would be just as easy for Unitarians to call trinitarians non-Christians.
But it's wiser to leave that kind of conclusion in the hands of God.
There is much more involved in being a Christian than merely a set of beliefs.
Some have perhaps chosen to view it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
Actually, I do agree that Adam cast us away from God and Jesus leads us back. But in addition to this, I choose to accept the explanation that God followed the rule of like for like expressed in the Mosaic law and applied it legally to mankind's situation which required a perfect human life be paid for a perfect human life lost.
Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:20
Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
So in harmony with this divine principle, a perfect human life had to be given in payment for a perfect human life lost.
BTW
The death of Jesus was also the death of his potential offspring.
Vincestyle -
By the way you worded your question I would have to say that it doesn't affect or change anything regarding salvation, forgiveness (atonement) but maybe judgment, depending on the individual on judgment day. Jesus always was also. That is what is meant when the Bible says- AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
There is only the HOLY TRINITY in my opinion. Nothing else... :eek:
John 7:49
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. KJV
As long as we don't go around with upturned noses giving the cold shoulder to those we feel don't see things exactly our way and classifying them as eternally damned, then we are OK. It's when one believer in redemption based on Jesus' sacrifice looks down on another who also has faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice and assumes the status of judge that a sin is committed.
This is not to say that we shouldn't have an opinion concerning beliefs and conduct. Of course we should and we are entitled to our opinion. For example, we have every right to consider a certain denomination which we feel deviates significantly from the true Christian teachings as not being a genuine Christian organization, as a previous poster implies about those holding the Unitarian view, or as many Protestants feel about Catholicism and some Catholics feel about Protestantism. What we don't have a right to do is to assume that based on this we know the eternal fate of all Catholics and all Protestants and all Jews any member of any other religious group--for that matter simply because they are presently members of a certain organization or presently hold certain beliefs we feel are wrong. Only God is qualified to determine who is worthy of eternal life or not or who has the needed spiritual potential if given the proper opportunity under different circumstances of serving him for eternity.
BTW
Those who describe God as a mindless machine of destruction which mows down all those in its way simply based on denominational membership are actually defaming God's character by misrepresenting him as unjust.
The real question is why do people think The Prophet Isa(jesus) is not god?And there are real only 2 answers:
1. The bible contradicts its self so how can you trust what is in it.
2. The Prophet Isa(jesus) never told ANYONE that he is god, matter of fact he prayed to god to take away this burden!
now to answer your question posted is that no one has to die for our sins to be forgiven if that was the case then every like 100 years "a son of god" would have to die cause we sin every second of the day, the bible say thy shall not kill, but every time you breath in a breath of air you are killing cells in the air. The bible is a holy book but it was a holy book when it was in its original form! Now it is a book that has lies in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmadiyya
Well, I guess we agree in one area but disagree in another since I don't consider Jesus to be simply a mere prophet. Neither did John the baptist.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Neither did the Apostle Peter:
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Neither did the Apostle John:
John 17:3 (KJV)
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
About the sins you mention, Jesus' sacrifice paid for them once and for all times for those who avail themselves of it.
Romans 6:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all;...
So there is absolutely no need for a repetition.
BTW
The Muslims I have encountered have always spoken of the Bible in a respectful way and always say respectful things before mentioning the name of Jesus. Why do you differ in this area?
The Bible and the Qur'an are similar in that people who do not understand them can come up with a litany of apparent contradictions.
For example, I know well that most Islams are taught that only followers of Islam are admitted to heaven, yet the Qur'an teaches otherwise:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran...size=First+100
I do not cite this to bring an argument; as I can guess that you will have some explanatation for this apparent contradiction... but do you see the point?
I don't know if Jesus was a prophet, son of God, or what. But you'd have to be a fool not to acknowledge the profound effect he has had on those that follow him and on history itself. 2000 years after his death he still changes lives for the better and influences millions of followers. No matter what religion you belong to or whether you believe the bible or not you have to be in awe of someone who would die rather than follow the party line of the day and still find it in himself to forgive those who persecuted Him. Whether you believe or not there is a message in his story we all need to pay attention to.:cool:
Jesus (peace be upon him) was one the greatest of all Prophets and Messengers sent by God to guide mankind. Muslims believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for himself, i.e. said I am God or worship me; for that would be against his mission and a blasphemy unto God.
Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. He will be a proof against the divinity ascribed to him as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:
116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.
117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."
119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).
120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
Justification (made innocent) Atonement (suffering and death for sin) salvation (freedom from sin and enpowerment for life).. Was arranged and bought about by God by means of Jesus life and suffering and death... He was an innocent sacrifice that by faith we have our sins removed... The key to this is by grace( Gods loving provision) and by way of faith.. if God does not require that Jesus be Himself but rather represent and image God then we need to recognize that His suffering and death is what is needful.. We are made innocent by faith in his suffering and death and equipt to live according to Gods Will and by his Guidance...Quote:
Originally Posted by vincestyle
The only Begotten son( Born son) Monogenes is the means of salvation from Sin. We are saved from our a sins by the blood( death) of Jesus by faith.. We are not saved because he is God but by faith.. Anything that God offers to be accepted by faith will bring about what he intends for it if accepted by faith/ trust in Gods provision..
The jews understood that the lamb of God did not appease God it was suppose to be the offering of the repentant heart. Jesus is the offering of our repentant heart when knowingly we recognize he took our death as an innocent representative... Like Adam who bought death by representative headship of the human race.. Jesus becomes the head of the new Man to those who believe..
Definition of Monotheism or The Touchstone of Theology:
1. Say: "He is Allâh, (the) One.
2. "Allâh, The Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." [Holy Quran, 112:1-4]
As far as atonement is concerned, it is clearly mentioned in the Quran in no uncertain terms:
‘And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls (another) to (carry some of) its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for (the benefit of) his soul. And to God is the (final) destination’ [Holy Quran, 35:18]
And elsewhere, we read:
‘God does not charge a soul except (with that within) its capacity. It will have (the consequence of) what (good) it has gained, and it will bear (the consequence of) what (evil) it has earned’ [Holy Quran, 2:286]
So salvation is not in just having 'faith' but salvation is achieved by believing in God with the correct creed as Jesus (peace be upon him) did, worshipping God as Jesus did and believing in the glad-tidings that Jesus gave of the coming of the last messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)!
When jesus return to earth we can asked directly to jesus what is the reality. But one thing is sure that the bible prophecy is now happening. Many messengers, prophets had came to this world and lived. But any of them didn't able to a second coming to the earth. Only that credit goes to jesus. That means jesus is the son of god.
Yes, as I've mentioned earlier, Muslims do believe in the return of Jesus. In fact a muslim's faith is incomplete if he/she denies the second coming. But that in now way implies that Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has any share in divinity!Quote:
Originally Posted by cassini
In fact, Jesus will return to prove exactly the opposite. The Holy Quran, Chapter 5:
116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.
117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).
118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the AllMighty, the AllWise."
119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).
120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
Believing is faith...Quote:
Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
It's the taking of what God gives as informative and trusting that what is given is true..
That requires the right information of course..
But One cannot dismiss the information Given in the Good news that comes because of Jesus the Messiah..
He is the propitiation, The lamb that takes away sin.. the burden of sin bearer... As he is reported saying of Himself.. No man comes to the Father but because of Him( Jesus)..
No sin stained individual can stand in the presence of the Almighty holy God His Awe not only overwhelms but his light exposes the sin of the heart..
it's the one whom God has put forward to take from the sinner the guilt and shame that is exposed in Gods light.. This is where faith comes in..
The sin remains unless one believes God and His message of Grace in Jesus.. By trusting God that the Sin is paid for in Jesus' death He( God) alone implants the truth of freedom from sin.. All He requires is that we believe him , Trust him and thereby exercise faith in Him to receive that freedom.
Now the correct creed has freedom been that Jesus died for the sins of the world.. Its how that death is received that dictates its value..
If you do not believe there is a sin bearer.. the lamb sent by God to die in the place of all who will accept Him( Jesus) as the master and head and leader of a new race, a new people, a new creation...
The old has passed away behold I make all things new( As given in the bible as spoken by Jesus.. )
We all know where we have sinned.. its only that sin that bars our way into a living relationship with the eternal God.. BUt while that stain of sin remains a part of our lives we will remain separated from God.. " Your sins have made a separation between you and your God, your sins have hidden his face from you.. But YhVH has laid on Him( Jesus) the iniquity of us all..
No maybe its not logical according to some rules..Maybe its counted as unjust..But God knew from the beginning that death by sin would lead to eternal separation from Him and so knowing enacted a plan to provide restoration..We are reconciled to God by the death of His son( Jesus)Much more being reconciled we shall be saved by his life..That is in the Messiah God was reconciling the world to himself not counting their sin against them. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness from God..We implore you then on behalf of The messiah "BE reconciled to God"
It is hoped that all would fear the Lord and turn away from sin and be reconciled.. But alas not all do fear the Lord... Not sure how you think that one can purify himself... We are to to keep ourselves unstained from the world.. but what happens when one fails to fulfill the known lifestyle.. what happens when one is stained by the world... Apart from Jesus there remains a fearful expectation of eternal judgement.. Not even God in his forgiving heart can alter his image in man.. Sin alters Gods image in man and as far as I have seen there remains only one way out of that altered image. And that is to die.. God has provided a way to die that does not bring ABOUT THE FOLLOWING JUDGEMENT... He says to believe and have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus and by so doing you are geared to be an inheritor of eternal life..
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
I would suggest not..
There are many rationals as to what is accomplished on the cross and how..
Substitution
Sacrifice
Judicial
Representative
throwing out any one or all of these theories does not do away with what Saves from sin
Believing God and making Jesus the ruler over ones life.. " if you declare Jesus as Lord and believe that The God raised him from the Dead you shall be saved..."
The scriptures do not say you have to believe any of the theories of salvation...
Jesus dies for you..
His death is something Paul says we identify with and in so doing we die with him and raise with him.
Our old man is dead..
Our new life begins..
Its based upon faith, faith in The God.. not faith or belief in some man structured theory..
The Good news was very simple its no longer so..
The convictor and convincer of these truths is The one true God...
Those that believe Him and in the redemptive work accomplished through the life death and resurrection of the Son are the beneficiaries... Not because they understand the complexities of theology but because they are convinced that Jesus Death is their death...
If we died with him we shall also live with him... He has died to put away sin.. not because there is some eternal quality to his life but because God has declared it and we have believed it.. Not because we are Wise philosophers or powerful kings but because HE has made it simple to confound the wise and weak to thwart the strong and powerful..
The foolishness of The God is wiser than men and the weakness of God more powerful than man.. The foolishness of the cross.. Let us not forget that the cross foolishness to the wise..
I can't say I agree with all the thoughts of the unitarian... but they can no more turn over the truth of the Gospel( good news) than any one church that exists today..
Jesus Died and its by faith in that provision as led by the one true God that brings redemption.. As does believing that the God raised him up from death.. and exalted him to his own right hand and gave him all power and all authority.. The one we now serve until he himself sets all at the foot of The Gods throne...
The Bible does not ask any to believe that Jesus is an uncreated being.. thats a conclusion made by men..
It does in places seem to suggest that he existed before he was made man.. But even that is from limited texts and theologically inclined translations..
I much prefer to hold to that which is stated..
He is the almighty God's Anoited one sent by The one true God to redeem and reconcile the world to The God himself..
This is the premise of all sermons preached and presented in the scriptures and Jesus himself never attempt to exalt Jesus above anything but being Gods servant..
I know that our English and probably most translated text seem to show varied ideas that present Jesus as being beyond human. But in reality he could not have accomplished redemption unless he were totally human. For we all know that for death to have value the one dying must indeed be able to die.. As God cannot die it would be impossible for the one called Jesus to be God..
Jesus is God!
John 1vs 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
This Chapter tells us Plainly that Jesus IS God And He has always existed with God and Holy Spirit from the Beginning. Jesus is was Not created He is God and everything was Created By Him and Through Him.
This is Incorrect Because Jesus Did Claim to be God. That is the reason why he was crusified because the Jewish Scibes and Pharosies accused Him of Blasphamy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
It would be incorrect to suggest that Jesus died because he claimed to be The God.
That's not the reason the bible gives as to why they handed him over to Pilot or why they themselves claimed he was to die.
That conclusion is not represented in scripture.
The scriptures are clear
He died as the son of the God...
It is as the son of the God that he comes to us.. He is likened to Adam in being the second Adam... inaugurating the new covenant.. It as as the son of The God that he goes to the Cross..
And clearly there is no claim that there exists a tri fold God.. He speaks of the one true God and you read the English version, translated according to a theological rational.. When the Scriptures speak of The word they speak of Gods expressed thought, the logos.. And then goes on to state that it is by the expressed thought of God that all things are created..
The gender distinction of "He" does not exist in the Greek in the same way it is used in the English, and the application of the word becoming flesh is clearly not defining Jesus as being God but that Gods "expressed thought" becomes flesh... That Jesus himself is the very image of the invisible God...
That to see Him is to see the God, the Father of all life..
We are, according to scripture, children of God. Not brothers to God... We are never called Jesus children but Brethren to him, Like him a child of The God...
So In reality its how we have learnt to apply the lessons of scripture and what in fact we see in them , more than what was actually meant..
We live today under 1700 years of teaching that says that Jesus is God himself.. we have also been told that not to believe that God is a trinity excludes us from the household of faith..
But the scriptures never in fact say this..
They require a belief in the life and death and resurrection of the only Born son of The God.. By requiring a belief beyond the simple facts and guidelines of scripture, By erecting walls that prohibit inclusion because of men ordained ideas we are rejecting people from the kingdom not inviting them in.
You will find that nothing in scripture requires Jesus to be God in order for him to be The Gods provision for sin and life.. All that is ultimately required is faith in God because of the Lord Jesus... To believe that we died with his representative death and are raised to newness of life in his resurrection.. The theological whys andwherefores are not a requirement.
If we died with him we shall also live with him..
We are baptized into his death.. and raised to newness of life..
He came by water and the blood
on our behalf.. He is lifted in order to draw all men unto him..
As the children of Israel had faith in the saving power of God when looking to the bronze serpent on the pole , so we when looking unto him are by faith partakers of death to the old man and life in the spirit..
These are all themes of the NEW testament.. The theology created by man that has surrounded the church has done more harm that good. We should be looking for ways to include people in the results of the Cross not exclude..
talaniman-
That was such a good answer.
Atonement is not forgiveness.. Its much more than forgivenesss. Forgiveness is what Got offers out of Himself and that does not require atonement.. If one were in fact to read the scriptures one would find that God forgives anyone who turns from Their sins... But our salvation from sin requires much more than Gods forgiveness.If it only required The Gods forgiveness then all could easily be reconciled without the death of Jesus..Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Gods desire and willingness to forgive is the movement behind the means of reconciliation not the result of..
Salvation from sin is the result of believing God.. much like the Israelites believed God when looking to the bronze serpant.. The serpant on the pole carried no power in itself. But belief in God bought the promised result.. Later the people eventually began to worship the means of faith(The serpant on the pole)instead of God and received Gods wrath..
Likewise the lambs blood on the lintle in Egypt had no power to preserve the firstborn and the Angel of death pass over.. it was the demonstration of trust in Gods word that provided the passing over..
And like Abraham being considered righteous was not the result of any other action but believing the God.. Abraham believed God and it was acounted to him as Innocence..
Our salvation from sin and reconciliation to God comes because we declare Jesus to be master of our lives and believe God Actually raised him from death..
Does God forgive? Of course He does but His forgiveness is not the result of our faith in Him and in Christ... The word is remission of sins and that invloves the removal or the taking away or the covering of our sins..
So Atonement is not at all limited , if even representative of forgiveness...
Yor1 I think you are missing the Point of John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
It talks about the Word being with God, the Word was GOD and was there in the Beginning with God. Clearly the Word here is personified and if you read further to verse 14 it clarifies why John personifies the Word and it turnes out the Word is Jesus. The Word became Flesh.
So the Word was God, and Jesus WAS God and has always been there with God the father from the Beginning. Nothing was made with out HIM.
The Prophet Isaiah also prophesied that Christ is God.
Isaiah 9vs 6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
This Verse from the Old testament clearly establishes Christ as God.
"His Kingdom" denotes Kingship
"Judgement" Shows Jesus will be Judge and only God can Judge. Jesus IS God.
Sorry Sassy but these are interpretive renditions of the text you use..Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
John 1 and its point is not as much a rendition of deity but what Christ was to us..
The Isaiah
Text is just one rendition which in the Hebrew does not read so king James as most like it read..
" wonderful in council is the mighty one the father of eternity and ruler of peace"
You will find that no New testament scholar uses this text to convey a sense of deity when directed at Christ..
Likewise the Matt text of " he shall be called immanuel" does not actually use the word that we use in English when defining the name." which means the mighty one is with us"
Not unlike Hebrew the Greek uses god differently from us.. Elohim meaning mighty one used of angels and kings and judges as well as of The Almighty..
In Greek god is used of others besides The Almighty and most times when referring to the Almighty uses the definite article' THE" sometimes the use of the greek word "Theos" is actually being used as an adjective..
The Jehova witness stance on John 1
The Word was God
they render
the word was a God
But Sharps rule as orthodox christian scholar says that the line should be read in structure different from the way it actually is..
The actual Greek reads
a god is the logos
The use most make of the text today is from Greek philosophic form.The Logos being the rational being and thereby translate the word Logos as a personal being..
But in fact the word logos is a masculine greek word and carries with it like in French masculine words a masculine ending..But its supporting text reverts to standard language and can be rendered like most neuter words
"IT"
So what is the point???
that Our present reading of John 1 is to infer that the writer is making a person out of the term LOGOS" 'the expressed thought" And that this is Johns point. but I do not believe that he is in fact doing this as the use of the names from the oT are not identifying the individual who carries them but are identifying the God the represent.
Immanuel was the name of an individual of the OT carried over to Jesus by Matthew..
The word becoming flesh and dwelling among us is exactly what Jesus did ..He became Gods word in Human form...but to claim this means that he himself was God is beyond the text..God in these last days has spoken to us by way of his son "according to Hebrews"
But it is still God who speaks who's word we are hearing through the image of the invisible..
And human theology that determines anything beyond the scriptures as the church of antiquity has done, takes us outside of the revealed truth and into human meandering..
Jesus is the son of God born of Mary..Who lived and died..No true od that I have ever come to understand could possibly die..God is eternal and is as the Scriptures say.The one true God..Any inheritance that Jesus gains or we gain as descending from God is not a declaration of his deity but of his worth..
Hence we are born of God not because of the deity of Jesus but because of the promise of God accepted by faith..The religious wherefores of theology do not change the simplicity of the Good news..
We are reconciled to God by the one Man Jesus The anoited of God..
To change the Gospel and require that any or all believe him to be God himself is to change the Gospel..No one was ever asked to believe this when any sermon was preached by the apostles..ever..
This being the case it makes very suspect any rendering that is made that The John text is declaring the deity of Christ and not just his calling as Gods perfect representative upon the earth.. the Mediator of a New covenant the mediator between God and man.
If indeed Jesus is God then the Catholics are correct we need a mediator between us and him before we can have a mediation between us the Father..
But as the scriptures say
it is the man Jesus that reconciles us to God..
The text " God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself...
Is not speaking of Jesus as himself but God as himself..
Jesus reconciles us to God not himself.. He is the means of reconciliation the one we are reconciled to..
So when reading any text one must be guided by the realities of the gospel not the theological pretexts..
Jesus is the expressed thought of god manifest.. why? Because he is subject in totality to the Almighty and thereby as he himself says.. These are not my words but the words of him that sent me..
To then conclude that he is both the one being sent and the one sending kind of undermines the whole framework of the Gospel.. As God he would be included as the sender and not as some suppose the other members of the godhead send him as if he is not a part of that sending also undermines the idea of this trinity concept that is presented that is beyond the understanding of man..
Yor1
The text is simple and I think you are the one who is creating your own interpretation. Even if we take away the "He" it is still clear the Jesus is the word and therefore is God because it says the word was God. John makes it clear in verse 14 that the word is Jesus. So if the word is Jesus and the Word is God then Jesus IS GOD.
It simply says:
In the Beginning was the word
The word was always there in the Beginning with GOD
All things were Made through the word
With out the word nothing was made
In the Word was the Light of men
Darkness could not comprehend the word
The word was GOD
The word became flesh
The word dewelt among us
The word's Glory was the only one begotten of the Father.
So Because John tells us the word Became Flesh and dwelt among us that immediately tells us that the word is Jesus.
So because john has revealed who the word is we can replace "the Word" with "Jesus" in this verse.
In the beginning was the Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. 2 Jesus was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus nothing was made that was made. 4 In Jesus was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend Jesus.
14. And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Yor1
This is the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 9 vs 6
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;(councelor, Mighty God, Price of Peace)
7 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)
This verse is from Jewish translation and it is evident that the Child that is Given has Deity. "His Kingdom" denotes King ship.
If Jesus was God, who sacrificed their only son for our sins? If Jesus is God then why do we have passeges in the Bible of Jesus praying to God? Why did Jesus ask God "why hast thou forsaken me" if he willingly went to the cross for our sins? How is it even a sacrifice if he went into it knowing he would rise from the dead/of if God knew his son would rise from the dead?Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)
Is there any other way to interept this other than co-existence with The Father? I think Jesus knows who He is. He is God the Son who laid aside His attributes of deity to be born as a man, our kinsman redeemer as pictured in the O.T. Every aspect of His ministry was directed and empowered by the third Party, God the Holy Ghost.
I firmly believe that Jesus is God. But since we are speculating, I guess God could have saved us to any degree He wanted. And if He willed that Jesus were mere man and not God and Man, then we could have been saved to the degree from which we had fallen.Quote:
Originally Posted by vincestyle
Instead of eternity in Heaven and participating in the Divine Nature,
2 Peter 1
4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
We could have been saved to eternity in the Garden of Eden and participation in the earth nature.
1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly.
Sincerely,
De Maria
It is ONE God that consists of 3 persons. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Your Human mind will find this hard to comprehend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onan
You do know this go's against everything God told the children of Israel right?Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
In the OT there was only one God. Demi Gods and Gods in human form were pagan ideas. The Jews were warned about these pagan beliefs all through the OT.
The actual Hebrew Tanakh reads: “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us and authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God”Quote:
This is the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 9 vs 6
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;(councelor, Mighty God, Price of Peace)
In an attempt to insert a Jesus prophecy, the KJV changed the tense from the present to the future, making it, “A child is born, a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God”.
The kicker? In Hebrew Hezekiah means "the mighty god". So the verse you just quoted up there was about king Hezekiah, not about Jesus.
Onan, God in many instances through the prophesies actually told the Children of Israel to expect a messiah(Jesus) who will have an everlasting Kingdom of Rule. So no, it does not go against anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onan
The translation I quoted above was from the Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917) So even if we change the tenses, there are many instances in which Isaiah uses the past tense when giving prophesy so that is an irrelevant argument.
Yes, Hezekiah was a better man than Ahaz; Hezekiah carried out some good plans and policies BUT HE WASN'T GOD; he wasn't "Mighty God!" Hezekiah's reign came to an end - in fact, not a very pleasant end.
Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot possibly be referring to the reign of Hezekiah. For Isaiah says elsewhere of Hezekiah in 39:5-7, "Here the word of the LORD Almighty: The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon." This Happened! So this would be the opposite of the requirement that "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end." So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 must be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace.
.
The reason we know this verse is clearly messianic is because it refers to the everlasting throne of King David.
Lets examine the nature of the this child’s authority.
-Government will be upon His shoulder
-Increase of His government and peace There will be no end
-Upon the throne of David
-Over His kingdom
-Establish it with judgment and justice
-Even forever
Isaiah proclaims the Messiah would be a Son of man by being born as a child, and at the same time be a “son” given. He goes on to identify the nature of this “son” and “child” by identifying him as “Mighty God”, “ Father of iternity” and “Prince of Peace” terms only used here in the Tanakh, except for Mighty God (El Gabor) which appears two other times in Isaiah 10:21 and Ezekiel 32:21.
This verse ties in beautifully with Isaiah 7:14
One has to remember that the word Elohim does not mean God.. It means mighty one.Which was used to refer to Any exalted being including kings angels judges and rulers..
The text that says
Wonderful in council is the mighty one, the Father of everlasting ruler of peace, which the king James and those thereafter have rendered
Wonderful councilor mighty God everlasting Father prince of peace has one unanswered glitch.
If indeed it is describing The Messiah rather than presenting a name then What do you make of the part that calls him
Everlasting Father?
Clearly he is not the father unless you are from the Apostolic pentecostal thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by yor1
The Word Elohim is the plural of Eloah and is the first name of God given in the Tanakh "In the Beginning God (Elohim) created the Heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1
But the Word Used in 9:6 is EL Gibor which IS translated The Mighty God in Jewish translations.
El God Genesis 28:3; 35:11; Numbers 23:22; Joshua 3:10; 2 Samuel 22:31-32; Nehemiah 1:5; 9:32; Isaiah 9:6; Ezekiel 10:5 ad infinitum
El Gadol Gibor Yare Great, Mighty Awesome God Deuteronomy 10:17; Nehemiah 9:32
Elohay Elohim God of gods Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Daniel 2:47; 11:36
Elohim Plural God Genesis 1:1; 14:18-20, 22; 17:7; 6:18; 9:15; 50:24; Deuteronomy 5:23; 8:15; 1 Kings 8:23; Psalm 68:7; Isaiah 40:1; 45:18; 54:5; Jeremiah 31:3; 32:27
Elohim Shamayim God in Heaven
So Clearly El means GOD.
Yor1
In Isa 9.6, "Everlasting Father" translates the Hebrew 'abiy`ad. The literal translation of abiy`ad is "Father of Eternity."
When used in this context, "Father" of something means the originator and/or source.
Thus, Isa 9.6 is saying that Jesus is the originator and source of eternity.
You will find a similar idiom in John 8.44, where the devil is referred to as the "father" of lying and murder.
I just want to say this was a wonderfully thought out post, and you are a much better writer than I am. I really hate to keep this going here because it seems I kind of took this away from the original question. What bothers me though, is the loose translation of Messiah that christians have. You guys think there is only or will be only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
The word for savior in Hebrew is “Moshee’a’ah” which means “deliverer.” The word for “anointed” in Hebrew is “Mash’akh” which means “smeared” (with oil). The Greek Septuagint combined both meanings and came up with the Greek word, Messiah. Therefore, to be the Jewish Messiah, one has to be a DELIVERER (Savior), and one has to be ANOINTED with oil, and one major event must happen during the messiah's time on earth – there must be peace in Israel. Jews have always believed that the “Savior of Israel” would be a man of flesh and blood like themselves that would deliver them out of oppression, pain and suffering. There have been “saviors and “deliverers” throughout the history of Israel and many were even crucified on the cross. No where in the OT does it say it will take a second coming for what the Messiah is supposed to do. That's why Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. There was things the Messiah is supposed to do that quite frankly Jesus did not do. King Hezekiah was very much considered a Messiah to the Jews because there was peace in the land(for awhile) and he was anointed. Almost every Jewish King could be called a Messiah.
I just think it should be remembered that the Jews expected a human and most of the time a military leader. Jesus didn't fill the requirements here because he was a demi god and he was no military leader. I would also like to point out that he was not anointed either
Yes the text does lead to " Father of eternity"
But does it not seem convenient to change the translation from " eternal father when that rendering becomes complex to explain but retain the rendering Wonderful councilor rather than the Hebrew "wonderful in council" and to include the word GOD in mighty God instead of the Hebrew " Mighty one". There is not question that the word Elohim is a plural form but does not translate to Gods but to "Mighty Ones".. As Was indicated reflecting any who are in an exalted position..The Hebrew word that more nearly represents god is the word Baal.. But that is not used of the Almighty...
As for Immanuel That should rather be understood " the Mighty one among us"
" the mighty one With us"
Even the Greek word theos does not carry the same intent of divinity that Our English has come to mean ..
Jesus himself says Does not The Almighty call men gods..Taken from John.. Here he is reflecting off the idea that Judges were given divine authority..And its this that the Hebrew and Greek reflect in the usage of Elohim and Theos...They better infer ..One who is in dominion and is exalted..
Now I understand that most often the Word Elohim and Theos are indeed focusing upon the Almighty God, the One True God, the Father of all life, the Creator of the world.. But the word itself does not reflect this its the use and context that reflect the intent and focus..
As for John one
The text actually says..
Theos is the logos not the word is God...
Its mans interpretation od the grimmer that is being modified to present the rendering
The word is God..
But is actually written
God is the word.
Some conclude that the use of God here allows for its to be read
The word is a god
There is also the possibility that the leaving out of the article before theos makes it a subject to the word and would then read " The word is God"
But it can also be read as an adjective and read
Godly is the word..
The absolutism of the traditional reading does not inspire
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