Priest faces trial in nun’s stabbing death
Body of 71-year-old victim was found under altar cloth 26 years ago

Reuters
Updated: 10:35 a.m. ET April 15, 2006


TOLEDO, Ohio - A 68-year-old Catholic priest goes on trial Monday in the stabbing death of a nun whose body was found covered by an altar cloth in a chapel 26 years ago.

The Rev. Gerald Robinson, charged with murder and facing a possible sentence of life in jail if convicted, has been on leave from his priestly duties since his arrest in 2004. He has pleaded not guilty.

The crime occurred in a hospital chapel in downtown Toledo on Saturday of Easter week in 1980. Investigators said the nun, Margaret Ann Pahl, 71, was strangled and then stabbed up to 32 times.

The investigation initially centered on Robinson, the hospital’s chaplain and a priest of the Toledo Catholic Diocese. He was not charged at the time and presided over Pahl’s funeral Mass.

Police reopened the case in 2003 and arrested Robinson in April 2004. The cold case squad said it suspected that blood spatters left at the crime scene matched a letter opener in Robinson’s possession.

After his arrest investigators said they believed a “ceremony” had taken place inside the chapel in conjunction with the slaying but did not elaborate. Robinson is the only one who has been charged.

Several events led to the case being reopened. In June 2003, an unidentified woman went to the Toledo Diocese seeking reimbursement for her therapy. She presented officials there with a letter claiming she was a childhood victim of clerical sexual abuse by Robinson, according to the Toledo Blade, which obtained a copy of the letter.

The woman claimed to be the victim of Satanic ritualistic sexual abuse perpetrated by a number of priests who were involved in a cult, the newspaper said.

Prosecutors said they were unaware of the letter until after the woman who wrote it gave a copy to Claudia Vercellotti, a Toledo leader of the Survivors Network for those Abused by Priests.

Vercellotti forwarded it to the Ohio attorney general’s office in September 2003, saying she thought church officials were not moving on it. The state office in turn sent the letter to Lucas County prosecutors, causing them to reopen the case in December of that year.

Police have said they asked the diocese to voluntarily surrender all documents in Robinson’s file but only got three pages.

In September 2004, the diocese was served with a warrant and surrendered over 100 documents. The diocese has consistently refused to discuss the case, citing a court gag order.

Robinson has not faced any criminal charges of sexual abuse.

Prosecutors expect the murder trial in Lucas County Circuit Court to last from three to four weeks.

Copyright 2006 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

© 2006 MSNBC.com
__________________________________________________ _______________

Not to offend you Catholics out there but, the church has a long and colorful history of this sort of thing and many others. I belong to no organised religion simply because I get really bad "vibes" from all of them. The thing is I believe that the Catholic Church is really a cover for evil and that Satan has his throne somewhere in the Vatican. If you look at Mexico, where people are starving, they are told to have more children since it is a blessing from GOD. Now 99 percent of Mexicans there are starving and coming to America. Why does the Catholic church turn it's back on them and not help them? At least the Mormans will give you something to eat! Carl Marx predicted that America would be a Spanish speaking country in the future... much to the delight of the Catholic church! The Catholic church is trying to populate the world with Catholics just as the Mormon church is trying to populate the world with Mormons! You may hate my opinion and even hate me personally for my opinion but I know for a fact that the leaders of these organisations are doing more harm to the world and the people of it than they are doing good. The longer they can keep us brainwashed the longer they will sit on high suppressing anything they do not want us to know and telling us anything that keeps us docile. There is only ONE TRUTH in the entire universe and that truth is inside every one of us. Until we find that and come together as a complete community on our own and for the good of all, these tyrants will keep this world just as it is today... one big mess!:mad:

Reading the hate sites again I can see. Let me see Catholic Charities does more work, gives more food, more housing and more money than any other single group in the world. They were there at the hurricane helping but guess what, no one wanted to show them there doing more than most of the other groups.


And Mexico is the way it is because of its government, not its religion.

If you did not really beleve this bull I would have to laught because I guess the bigger the lie and the louder you yell it someone can fall for it.

The catholic church while it had its share of problems and political isssues though the years, without it, there would be no bible, since they protected and made hand copies for 100's of years. It was the councils of the early church (catholic and orthodox, east and west) that made up the creeds used by all christians and even were the ones to develop the bible and decide what books went and which did not.

Without the catholic church in history there would not be christianity today.

The Pope, esp the last one was most likley the most devout and earnest Christian the world has seen this century.

If it said "A 68-year-old School Teacher goes on trial Monday..." should we then ask

Could School Teachers be Evil?

There's always going to be bad people in every religion or organized group of any kind. And unfortunately bad news seems to get the best press. We rarely hear about the good. I know that the Catholic Church (and in Canada at least, the Anglican Church as well), is responsible for abuse of children in the Indian Residential Schools, orphanages, etc... no one denies that. But there's lots of good people too. I grew up in foster care and went to a Catholic boarding school run by nuns, and it saved my life. Those nuns never abused me. They did a lot of good for me and the other girls at the school. They definitely weren't evil, and I think more people in the Church are like my nuns, rather than those people that make the news.

Yes, locally in TN in the last year, we had several teacher issues, a preacher of a non catholic church, a karate teacher but none of them made even the state news, barely second page on the local news.

But a 20 year old case for a priest seems to get national coverage. But of course there are anti catholic groups that make sure it does.

Sweet Mary Mother of GOD! I am so sorry to offend. I am going down to the nearest Catholic church right now and get obsolved of my sins so I can start over with a clean slate. Like the Mafia hit man said, "It's nice being Catholic, you go to confessional on Sunday and start out clean on Monday."

Rickj: "We can all agree that some things are not written to be taken as fact. I would point to many of the Proverbs to begin with..."
I am not refurring to one "bad person" rickj, over and over there are terrible things coming from the Catholic church. How many children have been molested by priests? There is something horrible going on in that church and if you want to question my intelligence because I have the cahones to point it out then knock yourself out. The fact remains that it goes on every minute and these Catholics that puff up over my words seem to be getting puffed up about about the wrong things. I am a retired Federal prison guard and I also worked the state prison system. The worst scum I ever delt with were the baby rapers. When I hear about another priest that has violated a child I go balistic. I also know that we are not hearing about every case. So, what do the Catholic people think about the priests that are doing this and what are you doing to stop it?

Fr Chuck, no, I'm not reading hate sites again... just the newspaper.:(

Hi, Magprob,
No, I don't believe any Church is evil. Some do get more Media and Newspaper coverage than others!
You say you get "bad vibes" from all Churches, and mention Satan. Could it be Satan has you in his grips? I do not mean that to be offensive, just simply that Satan has a way of instilling thoughts which are, as you know, opposite the Will of God.
I do believe that all Churches, not just Catholic or any particular denomination, or belief, has those who do not follow the Will of God in their everyday life. A good example is a few of the TV and Radio Ministers; rich beyond most people, who own race horses, country homes, planes, etc...

MagProb,

You have some real issues. It is not with the church but yourself. All I have seen from you is judging groups of people because of some bad apples. Just because there are some bad apples does not make the whole bunch bad. I have been brought up as a Roman Catholic and have had no problems whatsoever. I do not agree with the abuse that has happened. It does not mean that it happens everywhere as that it is the way it is coming off from you.

There are teachers who sleep with their students, that is abuse. Does that mean all of the teachers are abusers?

Many people I have heard bring this up. On the news, the white man is usually involved in rape crimes. Black man are usually involved in Murder and shooting crimes. Okay does that make White Men mostly rapists and does that make black men mostly murderers? The answer is of course no. What you are doing is lumping everybody together in a body of church and for some reason you have Labelled the whole organizing evil. Do you think it is right for judgement like that on your part? No. What do I think about the abuse, the abuse is wrong and anybody that is found completely guilty without a doubt should be punished for their wrong doing, but then again there are others who are falsly accused as well, but people like you automatically feel that all is guilty which is a warped way of thinking of it.

P.S. My Wife and I had a very bad experience with a young punk cop threatening us and punching the car. He was very bad, did not do anything wrong. He was a crooked cop. Does that make all Cops bad. The answer again is NO.

Joe

Perfect! After this story about the priest that murdered the nun ran, the pope made a statement that we (everyone else) are all evil due to the television and the media we watch. Sex is everywhere and we are all a bunch of fiends. In other words, shifting the blame away from the church and on to the accusers. Kind of like you are doing to me now. But that's OK... that is the answer I was anticipating when I posted this article. You Catholics have not let me down! You have been taught by the best! I am now through with this thread as it will only turn into a crusade from here on out. Goodbye.:D

The following applies to all religious organizations. An organization can be considered evil if it officially approves of evil behavior. By evil behavior is meant behavior which is today universally considered a crime against humanity and which is universally condemned by the society of nations. If some of the organization's members, or even the majority, choose to go against an organization's rightious policies, then the members themselves are evil and not the organization which disapproves of their behavior.

For example, if a religious organization should officially condone evil, or else wink at it or ignore it, then it certainly cannot be considered a good organization. But this in no way reflects upon its members who might see the official policy as contrary to God's will or else follow an organization's guidance due to ignorance. In short, come Judgment Day, the organization itself might come under God's wrath while many of its members might be blessed.

Daniel 7:10
A stream of fire issuedand came out from before him;a thousand thousands served him,and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;the court sat in judgment,and the books were opened.


Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

It is so easy to read the bad news but so hard to find the good news. Unfortunately it is so easy to paint people and places with a broad brush and lump everything in a convenient little niche to explain why something is so bad. This is not truth but just another form of ignorance and an example of taking the easy way out and not having to find the truth. Why is it that people look at the bad things that happen in life and refuse to acknowledge all the hard work and effort that goes into good works by people who never make the evening news or the front pages. Hopefully we will not only know that bad things happen but also a lot of good goes on if we open our eyes and see the whole picture:cool: :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

over and over there are terrible things coming from the Catholic church.

---

Name one, then. You have only named one from an evil member of the Church.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

How many children have been molested by priests?

---

Good question. How many, magprob? And what is the percentage of children molested by Catholic Priests to all children who have been molested??

I say that parents and family are the biggest percentage. So following your logic, Parenthood Is Evil!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

There is something horrible going on in that church and if you want to question my intelligence because I have the cahones to point it out then knock yourself out.

---

I do not question your intellegence, just your logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

So, what do the Catholic people think about the priests that are doing this and what are you doing to stop it?

---

I think it is horrible, and think that any person who mollests a child should be punished with the maximum sentence.

One of three shepherd children who turned the town of Fatima into a pilgrimage site after telling of her visions of the Lady of Fatima in 1917 (the year of the Russian revolution), Sister Lucy dos Santos died in February 2005, just before Pope John Paul II did. The three prophecies she received became known as "The Three Secrets of Fatima", and the last of those secrets is, according to recently emerging reports, that Satan himself would soon take over the Vatican.

Vatican insider Malachi Martin also insisted that Satan was taking over the Vatican. From 1958 until 1964, Father Martin served in Rome where he was a close associate of Cardinal Augustin Bea and Popes John XXIII and Paul VI. Martin believed that the Vatican had finally been, after centuries-long efforts, infiltrated at the highest levels by Satanists.


"Anybody who is acquainted with the state of affairs in the Vatican
in the last 35 years is well aware that the prince of darkness has had
and still has his surrogates in the court of St. Peter in Rome"
- Father Malachi Martin, in The Fatima Crusader
In his books, Martin described a ceremony called "The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer" held in the Vatican on June 29, 1963. Martin never recanted his claim that this Satanic ritual occurred in the Vatican, repeatedly insisting that the ceremony did occur and that a general Satanic conspiracy exists within the Vatican. Martin continued to speak out about these things until his death in 1999, doing numerous newspaper and radio interviews (such as "The New American", the "Steel on Steel" radio show, and "The Art Bell Show").

Martin quoted Pope Paul VI as bemoaning that "the smoke of Satan has entered the Sanctuary". Martin correctly predicted, long before the American priest scandal erupted, that reports of pedophilia rites and practices would dramatically increase among Catholic clergy because, in his words, "The cultic acts of satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen rites." (Keys of This Blood, Fr. Malachi Martin, p. 632). Since Martin's prescient warnings, tens of thousands of children have reported being raped at Catholic altars and inside Catholic confessionals, forcing the Church to pay out billions of dollars to settle court cases involving child sexual abuse by priests. In the Boston Archdiocese alone 65 parishes had to close in order to raise the money necessary to pay these court settlements. One case alone involved more than 500 child victims and a mandated court settlement of over $85 million dollars. Martin foresaw all this occurring long before it appeared in our newspapers, but his central message, that these acts are warning sign that Satanists are commandeering the church, has been ignored. His 1976 book on exorcism, Hostage to the Devil, leaves no doubt that Martin believed that the devil existed and was gaining strength in the world.
Peter Novak

Going back to the original idea of the thread, it appears the case has some problems, news today, the DNA found at the scene does not match the priest, the "blood " on the letter opener could not be matched to the crime.

There appears to be basically no real evidence against the priest that the news could report on. In fact the evidence produced so far basically shows the priest should never have been charged. But of course hatred toward catholic priests could hurt him with the jury.

Sadly everyone had this priest convicted prior to any evidence

Reality Check:

In 1965, Mr. Martin received a dispensation from all privileges and obligations deriving from his vows as a Jesuit and from priestly ordination." [Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, 25 June 1997, Prot. N. 04300/65].

Martin was a disgruntled Catholic.

Or were the Catholics disgruntled with Martin?

Certainly both... but you know how things like that go. If a person with authority in any group starts disparaging the group publicly, then the group gets ticked off.

Bottom line, though. All talk and no evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

Certainly both...but you know how things like that go. If a person with authority in any group starts disparaging the group publicly, then the group gets ticked off.

Bottom line, though. All talk and no evidence.

---

And doesn't that go both ways? Even if it is as obvious as the nose on your face. Denial is the path of least resistance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

Carl Marx predicted that America would be a Spanish speaking country in the future...much to the delight of the Catholic church! The Catholic church is trying to populate the world with Catholics just as the Mormon church is trying to populate the world with Mormons!

---

Just my opinion... what exactly is wrong with trying to populate the world with <insert religion here>? Corporations try to populate the world with their product, i.e. they hope as many as possible people in the world will use their product so they can make lots of money. Are corporations in agreements with Satan? What is wrong with too many Spanish-speakers? What is wrong with too many Catholics? Too many "Tide" users?:eek: It's all relative.

And don't even start on a group of evil people being representative of a whole group (see: religious terrorists/suicide bombers)--it's just bad logic!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magprob

And does'nt that go both ways? Even if it is as obvious as the nose on your face. Denial is the path of least resistance.

---

Not sure what you mean by go both ways. When a member of an organization makes accusations, it's up to that person to show the evidence, not the other way around.

2nd, it's still about the error of calling a group evil because of an evil member or evil members.

No one with a brain can deny that the Catholic Church has some evil members, as does every organization, religious or not.

The holiness of a church doesn't depend upon the holiness of its members. Look at the teachings of the church, which condemns these terrible acts.

Have any of you ever read Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Charles Chiniquy? He was a contemporary of President Lincoln. It makes interesting reading, and I think you can get it on line. Not sure about that though.

But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered that, in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honour and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence. For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one's self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!

I know that Roman Catholics will bravely and squarely deny what I now say. I am aware also that a great many Protestants, too easily deceived by the fine whitewashing of the exterior walls of Rome, will refuse to believe me. Nevertheless they may rest assured it is true, and my proof will be irrefutable. The truth may be denied by many, but my witnesses cannot be contradicted by any one. My witnesses are even infallible. They are none other than the Roman Catholic theologians themselves, approved by infallible Popes! These very men who corrupted my heart, perverted my intelligence and poisoned my soul, as they have done with every priest of their Church, will be my witnesses, my only witnesses. I will just now forcibly bring them before the world to testify against themselves!

Fifty Years in the Church of Rome
By CHARLES CHINIQUY

I don't think dear Charles was buying it!

Don't go by the judgment of people but by God's Judgement. You ask a very wise questions. Let's start with this one. What is the worship day? Many say Sunday, but why? The say by instinct but they don't even know.

Gen 2:1 "
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

SO we understand that God did all these things, but does God really need any of this? He made this day for us right? He even emphasized it in the 10 commandments

Ex 20:8

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the lord your God"

By this time most people will say it's a Jewish Feast. But what day of the week is the 7th day in reality? After all we need to understand we are promised blessings only on the 7th day by God and not the 1st or 2nd but the 7th Day.

Dictionary: Sunday = 1st day of the week Saturday = 7th day of the week
Also look at a Calendar and notice the first day of the week is Sunday no Monday, and the 7th Saturday, not Sunday.

But let's see according to the bible what day of the week is the 7th day.

We understand a major Christian Holiday is Easter Sunday. But why Easter Sunday?

EASTER SUNDAY = Resurrection SUNDAY

Mark 16:9 " 9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

He rose early on the 1st day of the week. But Easter falls on Sunday which commemorates the Resurrection. So if Sunday is the 1st day of the week, then what's Saturday? The 7th Day of the Week. The day blessed by God Most High:) NOT Sunday.

Mark 16:1 "When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise... "

So right after the Sabbath what came? The First day (Resurrection Day = Sunday) Clear or not?

Why does the Catholic Church keep Sunday worship?

John 8:47 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
What did God say 7th Day Saturday Sabbath or 1st Day Sunday? By keeping Sunday worship we are not receiving the blessings promised by our creator,
then people wonder why so many disasters happen around the world, etc, etc. Because nobody follows a simple commandment.


They know clearly that Saturday is the worshiping day promised by God. Even Jesus kept the Sabbath day.

Luke 4:16 "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read."

What about is apostles, did they keep the Sabbath day? Let's see...
Acts 17:2
As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures....

NOT the first day but the Sabbath day. If the Catholic Church truly followed Jesus teachings, they would keep the Sabbath day holy:)


Mat 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


What is God's will? 7th day Sabbath worship or 1st Day Sunday? Catholic Church has no salvation, nor does any church that keeps Sunday Worship. Jesus established the Church of God. That's the church I attend to. The only church IN THE WORLD that follows the true commandments of Christ.

I will simply point out:

Mark 16:9
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
(KJV)
Jesus appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week (the day of His resurrection, morning and evening).


John 20:26
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
(KJV)

This was one week later when Jesus again met with His assembled disciples on the first day of the week.


1 Cor 16:2
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
(KJV)

If those churches were not meeting on the first day of the week, why did Paul specify that the offering be received on that day?

Of course, Paul went to the synagogue to preach Jesus on the Sabbath. No one would have been there on any other day!

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, that's evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit that's evil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, thats evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit thats evil.

---

Raping little kids, priests driving nice cars, religious leaders with golden cups and luxurious treats,
Is that God's will? Did Jesus not humble himself? Did Jesus established any other church other than
The Church of God? These churches do evil in God's eye, and it's no my judgment, but God's judgment.

God's will, 7th Day Sabbath. Not 1st day Sunday. If Jesus kept the Sabbath Day holy, everyone should, specially those who claim to follow Christ. After all, we are not Jewish, but yet we believe in Jesus? What shall we say then? Make up our on worship day (ex: 1st day worship) NO WAY! If it wasn't important to keep the Sabbath day holy, Jesus himself would not have done it.

According to Mt 7:21 only those who does the will of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven (7th Day Sabbath worship) not the evildoers (anything other than what God commanded us)

You may be able to point out a few verses when they met up on the first day, but you will not find any worshipping on the 1st day except for the Feasts of God and that's if they by coincidence fall on a Sunday. Other than that, God did not blessed the 1st day or made it holy. He Blessed the 7TH DAY SABBATH. You can go to church on Sundays as much as you can but you are not meeting with God to be blessed by him because that's why he appointed the 7th day Sabbath as a lasting ordinance. It's even in the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8).

If we don't keep Sabbath, we have no sign with God

Ezekiel 20:20
"Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."

God didn't say "keep my 1st days holy"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickJ

If it said "A 68-year-old School Teacher goes on trial Monday..." should we then ask

Could School Teachers be Evil?

---

I agree

This is just ONE article, and it could be any other group of people. I also agree with Father Chuck that The Catholic Church had its fair share in the past but so has anything else. Father CHuck made further important points, and although I can understand why people say the C. Church is "evil" I think a lot of other people simply believe it because they are fascinated with that kind of scenario.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, thats evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit thats evil.

---

Yeah, the Church and CHristian rulers and people are supposed to be good, but there are a few people with lose screws that tarnish the reputation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Will144

Raping little kids, priests driving nice cars, religious leaders with golden cups and luxurious treats,
is that God's will? Did Jesus not humble himself? Did Jesus established any other church other than
The Church of God? These churches do evil in God's eye, and it's no my judgment, but God's judgment.

God's will, 7th Day Sabbath. Not 1st day Sunday. If Jesus kept the Sabbath Day holy, everyone should, specially those who claim to follow Christ. After all, we are not Jewish, but yet we beleive in Jesus? What shall we say then? Make up our on worship day (ex: 1st day worship) NO WAY! If it wasn't important to keep the Sabbath day holy, Jesus himself would not have done it.

According to Mt 7:21 only those who does the will of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven (7th Day Sabbath worship) not the evildoers (anything other than what God commanded us)

You may be able to point out a few verses when they met up on the first day, but you will not find any worshipping on the 1st day except for the Feasts of God and that's if they by coincidence fall on a Sunday. Other than that, God did not blessed the 1st day or made it holy. He Blessed the 7TH DAY SABBATH. You can go to church on Sundays as much as you can but you are not meeting with God to be blessed by him because that's why he appointed the 7th day Sabbath as a lasting ordinance. it's even in the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8).

If we don't keep Sabbath, we have no sign with God

Ezekiel 20:20
"Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."

God didn't say "keep my 1st days holy"

---

That's a first. I've been trained Anti-Catholic? Wow And the Catholics have been trained Anti-Christ. Violating all the commandments beginning fro the first one. What do you call people who does not practice what the bible says? Lawlessness. I hope ELOHIM opens your eyes and allow you to realize that no church can give you eternal life but only the blood of Christ through the Passover.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Will144

that's a first. I've been trained Anti-Catholic? wow And the Catholics have been trained Anti-Christ. Violating all the commandments beginning fro the first one. What do you call people who does not practice what the bible says? Lawlessness. I hope ELOHIM opens your eyes and allow you to realize that no church can give you eternal life but only the blood of Christ thru the Passover.

---

More unfounded rhetoric. I don't blame you, though. Clearly you've been taught to say that without any effort to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and does.

Any chance you can point to an official Catholic teaching that supports what you're saying?

And I'm curious: Which of the 30,000 non Catholic sects, each of which claims to be right, do you belong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickJ

More unfounded rhetoric. I don't blame you, though. Clearly you've been taught to say that without any effort to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and does.

Any chance you can point to an official Catholic teaching that supports what you're saying?

And I'm curious: Which of the 30,000 non Catholic sects, each of which claims to be right, do you belong?

---

You are right. I've been taught by God. Do you wish to question God's judgment?


I do not belong to any 'sect'. We simply follow the teachings of Christ. For example, Passover, not communion, Remember the Sabbath day by Keeping holy, not Sun God worship (Sunday), Can any of you point out when Jesus celebrated the communion through the bible? Or when Jesus went to the synagogue on the 1st day of the week(Sunday)?

According to Rev 22:18, this is the last warning the Lord gave us:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

In other words, no need to change the bible or come up with your own bibles. Whoever believes in Christ should only used the bible left by Jesus Christ and nothing else. Let's see what the Catholic Church did.


Please go to this link Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

They changed the 1st commandment and made the original 1st and 2nd commandment into 1 commandment alone. 3rd commandment about the graven images and idols and replaced it with "no strange Gods before me" which is part of the first commandment. In other words, as long as your god doesn't have 7 legs and it's purple, it's ok:). The 4th commandment is the Sabbath, they changed it to the third and took out the word Sabbath out of it and called the "Lord's day", which to them is the "Sun-God's Day", in other words, Sunday. And last but not least, they split the 10th commandment by making it into two. They figured, hmm, we took one away, we need to add one. What did God say? Do not add, do not take away

God chose the foolish, because the wise think they are just that "wise". Jesus Christ came to seek the sinners, not the righteous. Get rid of your worldly knowledge and follow the humble way of Christ so that he may enlighten your path. For it is written that whoever tries to find his life (living happy in this world) will lose it, and whoever loses his life will find it (the kingdom of heaven). Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich man. He was rich in arrogance and didn't accept God's word because he probably thought he was too knowledgeable and wise just like the pharisees whom never got to enter the kingdom of heaven.



I only use God's judgement, not men's judgment. God's word is clear, then why change it? Why do we need a "Traditional Cathetical Formula" when God gave us the "10 commandments"?? I am not here to argue friends, but to proclaim the truth. Flee to Zion and get out of Babylon. These are not my teachings for men has no wisdom, these are God's teaching, they came straight from the bible, God's word.

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VERY interesting!

1. Christians have worshiped on Sunday for nearly 2000 years now.
2. "This book": The Apostle John, of course, was referring to HIS "book": The "book" we call Revelation, or The Revelation of John. The "book" that we call the Bible was non-existent at the time.
3. CHRIST DID NOT LEAVE US A BIBLE. A plain fact of history. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find His command to Write. The command was to Teach. See here.
4. The "Catholic Church" changed nothing. The order of the 10 Commandments is how it was in the Septuagint, which is what the Apostles, in the books of the New Testament, quoted 75% of the time.

Did I miss anything? Facts and History speak louder than zeal every time.

No "tone" is intended here at all. I do not intend to disparage in any way. I am very eager to discuss and debate issues such as these. I am always happy to "agree to disagree" when the disagreement is based on different interpretations of the facts... but when one makes claims that have no basis in fact, then that's where my weakness at tact and diplomacy sometimes falls short.

In my 5000+ posts here on this site I have not referred to my own site on more than 2-3 occasions, so I'll take this liberty. Check this out and learn a bit about what Catholic Christians are really taught before presuming that what you are told we are taught is correct: Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apolgetics

PS/Olive Branch :) : I take back my "sect" comment.

I am sure that you are aware that there are over 30,000 groups that claim to follow the teachings of Christ. With which one are you a member of?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickJ

VERY interesting!

1. Christians have worshiped on Sunday for nearly 2000 years now.
2. "This book": The Apostle John, of course, was referring to HIS "book": The "book" we call Revelation, or The Revelation of John. The "book" that we call the Bible was non-existent at the time.
3. CHRIST DID NOT LEAVE US A BIBLE. A plain fact of history. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find His command to Write. The command was to Teach. See here.
4. The "Catholic Church" changed nothing. The order of the 10 Commandments is how it was in the Septuagint, which is what the Apostles, in the books of the New Testament, quoted 75% of the time.

Did I miss anything? Facts and History speak louder than zeal every time.

No "tone" is intended here at all. I do not intend to disparage in any way. I am very eager to discuss and debate issues such as these. I am always happy to "agree to disagree" when the disagreement is based on different interpretations of the facts...but when one makes claims that have no basis in fact, then that's where my weakness at tact and diplomacy sometimes falls short.

In my 5000+ posts here on this site I have not referred to my own site on more than 2-3 occasions, so I'll take this liberty. Check this out and learn a bit about what Catholic Christians are really taught before presuming that what you are told we are taught is correct: Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apolgetics

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That's exacly what I mean. I do not need to read what your interpretation is (no offense), I only follow where the Lamb leads. Did you expect someone to be walking around writing down what Jesus did and his disciples and what they did not do? Does the creator not have the power to control what was going to be written in the bible which most of us use? Not the Catholic bible.

According to Dan's prophecy
Dan 7:25 "He will change the set times and laws"
Which is exacly what Constantine did in AD325 in the council on Nicea by abolishing Sabbath worship and Passover and replacing it with communion and christmas.

And that's a historic fact as well isn't it? Wasn't Constantine the founder of the Roman Catholic Church? Wasn't he the Pontifex Maximus which is the title of the Pope? Wasn't he (Constantine) a High priest for the Pagan God the "Unconquered Sun" ? It was prophesied friend. Did he not establish the Roman Catholic Church?


Set Time & Law: Sabbath Day (Saturdays) & Passover

Mat 5:17

""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(Old Testament); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

If you want to continue follow your own thoughts rather than Christ's. No scholar or Theology can give you salvation by what they think. Only God by what it is. God Bless You!

Ok, then... since you will not answer my questions, let me try this angle:

Someone approaches you on the street and says that he thinks Christ's teachings are the ones he ought to follow - and asks you for advice on which of the tens of thousands of groups who "follow Christ" he should seek for more information.

What do you tell him?

Or:

He tells you that he believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God without error but he has problems interpreting some of it's passages - and wants some guidance on who, or what Church, teaches correct interpretation of it.

What do you tell him?

Please don't tell me that you'd tell him that the Spirit will guide him to truth. Surely we both agree that's not the answer, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickJ

Ok, then...since you will not answer my questions, let me try this angle:

Someone approaches you on the street and says that he thinks Christ's teachings are the ones he ought to follow - and asks you for advice on which of the tens of thousands of groups who "follow Christ" he should seek for more information.

What do you tell him?

Or:

He tells you that he believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God without error but he has problems interpreting some of it's passages - and wants some guidance on who, or what Church, teaches correct interpretation of it.

What do you tell him?

Please don't tell me that you'd tell him that the Spirit will guide him to truth. Surely we both agree that's not the answer, right?

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No, I'd not tell him that the Spirit will guide him because we all know God will send him help somehow. I wouldn't tell him what I think. If he has questions about certain verses or prophecies, first I'd pray so that God can give me the wisdom to preach to that person correctly so that they may understand and show him the mate for the prophecies he's lacking in understanding. In other words, every verse has it's mate. All the answers are found in the bible but not in chronological order as we would want it. But, we also agree that we should only follow Christ and not a certain church right? Because I obviously belong to a church, but it is not because of the church itself that I attend, but because of the truth. They have never answered me without using the bible. They have even shown me why the water evaporates, through the bible.

When people leave it to what they think the Spirit is guiding them, then they just potentially add to the thousands of various interpretations. Again, see here.

So all answers are found in the Bible? Please show us where the Bible says that "all answers are in the Bible". It is, in fact, an impossibility since "the Bible" was did not even exist when the writers of what we call The New Testament were writing.

The Bible, in fact, teaches otherwise: See here. That is a fact that anyone can read for himself in the Bible.

I both agree and disagre on your last statement. Yes, we agree that the fullness of God's special revelation to mankind is in Christ, but anyone who reads the Bible cover to cover must also agree: The Bible is not (and cannot be because even it says so) the sole rule of faith for a follower of Christ. See here.

In case you have not or will not read the "see here" links, let me clarify from "your" Bible:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
" So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you."

2 Timothy 1:13-14
"What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."

The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as "the Bible alone".