There have been many questions of late that revolve around, "If I/he/she does (pick your sin and place it here), will hell be consequence?" Because of this, I can't help but wonder if all people are taught to love God by using the fear of hell.

I know the importance of knowing the consequences of actions taken. But why does instilling fear of the consequences seem to be the forefront of stopping bad actions?

When you were a child and your parents told you not to pick on other children...Should it be, "If you do this you will receive such and such punishment" Or should it be, "It is cruel and wrong to put other people down. This is not how anyone should act." Are they both just as effective?

Maybe both ways are just as effective, but if you choose people's fear of punishment, then they don't gain understanding of why such action shouldn't be done. I feel that is what is most important. The understanding of why a bad action shouldn't be done teaches morals, it teaches us how to be good persons because that is how people should be and NOT because something bad will happen to you if you do the opposite.

In my own observations I see how people being taught to love God through their fear of hell causes them to equate God with hell. God should NEVER be equated with hell. Hell has nothing to do with any discriptions of God. I have seen too, that people seem to have a harder time understanding the whole point in Jesus' death. They also don't understand the "door of grace". Many of them think of God as cruel, stern, no sense of humor, stiff and even unfriendly. How can anyone ever be expected to grow close to God when these are the distinctions in the forefront of minds when thinking of Him?

Yes, God is strict and He is the epitome of strength, as well as He should be. But He is more than that too. He is grace, mercy, kindness, forgiveness and LOVE like you've never been loved before. God is the only reason there is love and goodness because that is who He is. Without God there is no good in this world or in people.

Why do so many people use hell to scare people into loving God instead of allowing God to truly shine through and be loved on His own accord, because He is deserving of it simply because He is God and not because you will go to hell if you don't?!?

There is no doubt that religion uses FEAR to keep people on the straight and narrow.

What could be worse than thinking you are going to burn in hell for eternity, as a way to keep you from doing something the religion believes is wrong.

I don't think it has anything to do with loving God, just a way to scare you into going to church and being a good boy or girl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

Why do so many people use hell to scare people into loving God...

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Frankly, there isn't much to motivate non-believers. Other reasons could include inability to let another make their own decisions without input. Desire for control. Belief of moral obligation/duty to convert non-believers. Note my low opinion of religion in general may be influencing my response.

Fear is a poor motivator anyway. You can only be afraid of something or someone for only so long, then you begin to get comfortable with the thought and the fear diminishes. Only love is a permanent motivator. In some instances, fear of Hell may bring some people to an altar, but if the connection with Jesus Christ is not made, that person will drift away before long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Fear is a poor motivator anyway. You can only be afraid of something or someone for only so long, then you begin to get comfortable with the thought and the fear diminishes. Only love is a permanent motivator. In some instances, fear of Hell may bring some people to an altar, but if the connection with Jesus Christ is not made, that person will drift away before long.

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I completely agree with you Galveston. And that is my point... If people use fear, which seems to be too common of an occurrence, then people aren't understanding Truth.

I'm not condoning sin. Nor do I ever want to put off the impression that one should rely on forgiveness so they can feel okay about sinning. But the truth is that we all sin saved or not. God knowing this sent Jesus to keep us from damnation, yet by the recent questions it seems as though people are oblivious to this. It seems as though the reason for this is because they have misconceptions of who God is... and it's probably because of how they were taught. (Note: I mean understanding and knowing God as much as one can in this body and mind. I know we don't have the capability to completely understand God, but He doesn't hide Himself either.)

As I said before, knowing consequences is important and I'm not saying it should be omitted when spreading God's Word.

Let me ask this... When reading about punishments in the Bible... Do you think God said this with the intentions to scare us into asking for salvation? Do you think this is the way God would want people to come to Him?

The monotheistic religions... Judaism, Christianity and Islam... ARE BASED on the original GodAlmighty, a god who punishes human beings capriciously!! (see the story of Job)!. the paradigm is that GodAlmighty is a parent/father and human beings are flawed children who are kept in line by fear and laws and rules. Of course, in Christianity, all this is glossed over by protestations of "God Is Love", "Jesus Loves You", BUT there is always the threat of punishment(*eternal* in some cases!) lurking in the shadows. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by progunr

I don't think it has anything to do with loving God, just a way to scare you into going to church and being a good boy or girl.

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And don't forget to bring money!

Tom, it is the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY. Do what you are told *or* you will burn in hell for eternity.

Jesus, If what happened to Job isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then I don't know what is!

Cri, What happened to Job, no matter how you rationalize it or how the story rationalized it , was **horrific and unusual punishment by a capricious and callous god!** You see, that was the real GodAlmighty's "personality"... master puppeteer, cruel beyond measure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choux

Tom, it is the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY. Do what you are told *or* you will burn in hell for eternity.

Jesus, If what happened to Job isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then I don't know what is!

Cri, What happened to Job, no matter how you rationalize it or how the story rationalized it , was **horrific and unusual punishment by a capricious and callous god!** You see, that was the real GodAlmighty's "personality"...master puppeteer, cruel beyond measure.

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If you don't believe the absolute TRUTH of the Bible as a whole (which you have stated many times); how can you now pull a complete book out of the Bible (Job) and misinterpret it and then base that on the whole foundation of Christianity. Does that sound resonable to you?

MM, The question is about the FEAR OF HELL in Christianity... that is the core of Christianity... to get "salvation" so you don't GO TO HELL.

Hell is GodAlmighty's *eternal* punishment. Heaven is "his" reward.

The God I believe in is a forgiving, kind, caring God, and yes, I do believe in God. The bible, that's a book written by men, not God. Church, I don't go, yet another mans interpretation of God's word. I worship God at home, I believe in his kindness, and that he loves us all. So if I'm wrong, then I guess I'm going to hell, I won't be alone, of that I am certain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choux

Tom, it is the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY. Do what you are told *or* you will burn in hell for eternity.

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Choux,

I don't know who told you about Christianity, but you heard wrong.

Man willfully chose to go stray, and willfully chose to go to hell. God never wanted that. Hell was made for Satan and His demons.

Matt 25:41-42
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV

And why? Because they rebelled against God and deceived men into following them into hell. Hell was created as a punishment for Satand and the demons in part for what THEY (not God) did to men in leading them to hell.

In response, what did God do? God chose to come to earthy as a man and died on the cross for us, that we might have a means by which we could have another chnace to escape the torment of our choosing.

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Jesus did not come to condemn, but rather to die for us that we might live in an eternity free from the punishment that we chose.

John 3:15-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
NKJV

Jesus choice to die on the cross for us once again gave us a chance to consider our choice to spend eternity in hell.

I don't know who misled you by misrepresenting Christian teachings, but I fear that millions will go to hell having been misled in like fashion.

To answer the original question.
I think you are partly right, that fear IS used to get people motivated and moved to belief in and obidience to God.
But I was raised to love a God who loves me and many other people were also raised that way.
"Jesus loves me this I know,
Because the bible tells me so."
Is the first song I was taught to sing in Sunday School.
I think people who teach by fear are missing the boat,
There is far more in the bible about a loving, helpful, merciful God than hell and damnation.
Basically Jesus taught by attraction with both words and deeds.
Punishment for being or doing wrong is found in all societies throughout history.
So it is standard procedure.
So is explaining why one should be good without the threat of fear.
Loving brings love.
Hate and fear brings hate and fear.
The whole GOOD story is that love eventually triumphs, some times sooner, some times later so the golden rule applies significantly in a person's life and versions of it is found in most religions.
For my and my family that is the best way to go.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

Tom, You are totally mistaken.

It is God/Almighty who created everything in your worldview of Christianity ESPECIALLY the rules of salvation. Christianity is based on the paradigm of GodAlmighty setting rules that allow for a human being to gain salvation(enter heaven after death), and GodAlmighty has the power to send people to burn for *eternity* in hell if the rules for salvation are not followed.

That is the basis for Christianity, from which all the rest of scripture follows, whether you like it or not.

It's like raising a small child. The parent doesn't tell the child, "Love your sister," because the child doesn't know what love is. The parent gives specific rules as the child behaves negatively: "Don't hit your sister" and "Don't spit on your sister" and "Don't step on your sister's dollhouse furniture." Only when the child has matured enough will he know how to show love to his sister, and that will come only after years of finding out what NOT to do and practicing with the parent's suggestions on what TO do: "Please help your sister find her orange socks" and "Mr. Smith next door broke his leg. I want you to cut his lawn every week until he can do it himself" or "Please help me carry in the groceries." Someday that child will be driving and will be cut off by another motorist (especially if he lives in the Chicago area), but because he understands love, he won't retaliate. Someday that child will find someone's lost possession, but instead of keeping it, will do his best to find the owner and thereby show love.

The OT has ten commandments that guide us, and the NT has two commandments that sum up the ten. God had to start with the ten rules and regs as training, so we could eventually do the two spontaneously.

Hellfire is man's construction--sinners in the hands of a God who is angry with them for never "getting it."

Fear of going to Hell is why I knew as a child that I needed Jesus. This did not keep me from sinning. You an read my profile to learn more about the way that I chose to go if you want to.

When I started going to church this time, I met God. I felt His presence for the first time in my life. I was hooked. How can one get more? I have been on a journey seeking the Face of God and Jesus presence in my life every day. I need Him in every part of my life. This is love and this is motivation to be with someone. Not fear of Hell. Yes, Hell is real and is a consequence of a life of disobedience, but living in a real relationship with the Creator and Savior is the BEST. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is better than being on anything else! This is what we need to share with the rest of the world and not fear. To fear God in a Biblical sense is to love and respect and revere Him above all else so that when He speaks we stop what we are doing and listen and obey. Not be so afraid of Him that we cower in His presence. He loves us so dearly, he came to live with us and then took our sins on Himself and then died our death so that He would not have to spend eternity without us!! Who else does that for humans? What other god loves its people? None but the LORD Jesus Christ!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choux

Tom, You are totally mistaken.

It is God/Almighty who created everything in your worldview of Christianity ESPECIALLY the rules of salvation. Christianity is based on the paradigm of GodAlmighty setting rules that allow for a human being to gain salvation(enter heaven after death), and GodAlmighty has the power to send people to burn for *eternity* in hell if the rules for salvation are not followed.

That is the basis for Christianity, from which all the rest of scripture follows, whether you like it or not.

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Choux,

Like I said, I don't know who gave you these false ideas but your view is not scriptural and I note, you have not provided any validation for your claim.

To suggest that because someone gets punished that it is the fault of God is like saying that it is the fault of the police because a person who violates the rules of the road gets a ticket. Any reasonable person would say that is ridiculous.

But it get more ridiculous yet because Jesus came and paid a penalty that He did not owe on behalf of the guilty person so that He might be found blameless. So your position would be analogous to blame an innocent person who sacrifices to pay a fine that he does not owe to help a person who is guilty.

I feel sorry for you. I don't know who mis-led you into mis-understanding Christianity, but don't let that person cause you to reject your one and only hope.

The OT has ten commandments that guide us, and the NT has two commandments that sum up the ten. God had to start with the ten rules and regs as training, so we could eventually do the two spontaneously.



Very nice post wondergirl... I'm curious though what are the NT two commandments?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Choux

Tom, it is the BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY. Do what you are told *or* you will burn in hell for eternity.

Jesus, If what happened to Job isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then I don't know what is!

Cri, What happened to Job, no matter how you rationalize it or how the story rationalized it , was **horrific and unusual punishment by a capricious and callous god!** You see, that was the real GodAlmighty's "personality"...master puppeteer, cruel beyond measure.

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You have missed the whole point of the book of Job. It was Satan who took everything from Job. Job did think it was God for some time, as he didn't know all the facts. Satan issued a challenge to God that could not be ignored.
That challenge was the claim that even the best man alive at that time did not serve God because he loved Him, implying that God was not qualified to be supreme because he had no real following. In the end, Job proved Satan wrong. Now go back and read the book, maybe it will make some sense to you. You sure didn't get it before.
P.S. God is NEVER capricious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

You have missed the whole point of the book of Job. It was Satan who took everything from Job.

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Ummm, check Job 1:12.

YOU have missed the whole point of the book.

For those, like Choux, who have heard an erroneous version of what Christianity teaches, let me add the following.

Choux believes that if we don't do what we are told, that we go to hell. Well, one way to be saved is to never sin, but so far no one other than Jesus has ever lived on earth who has managed to go through life in the flesh and not sin:

Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV

So, if Choux was right, then there would be no hope - we would ALL be on our way to hell. But God provided another way by coming to earth as a man, manifest in the flesh. And why did He come?

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
NKJV

Note: God did not choose to condemn anyone - it is each person's decision to choose life through receive Jesus' sacrifice on the cross; or choosing death by choosing to spend eternity in hell.

Those who receive the sacrifice that He made on the cross are no longer under the law, as Choux suggests. The purpose of the law is not to condemn us, as she suggests, but rather to point us to Christ:

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

When we receive Christ, we are no longer under the law because it is His righteousness that is imputed to us:

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

We see God's love when Jesus was on the cross, pounding nails into the hands of God in the flesh, and rather than condemning them to hell, what does Jesus (who is God) say about these evil me?

Luke 23:33-34
34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
NKJV

That is not the god that Choux describes, but this is the one true loving God who cares for each one of us and who desires that each one of us receive the sacrifice on the cross so that we might spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Choux,
Whether you believe it or not people do bad things and always have.
The foundation of Christianity is that God is merciful and offers forgiveness.
People like to and need to be forgiven otherwise the guilt of what they have done often eats them up and ruins their lives.
We KNOW that very often what we have done get punished in some way.
What goes around comes around.
I happens all the time.
If a person is forgiven a person can have a happy life, otherwise often not.
That is they way things are,
It is called the law of balances.
Whether a person believes it or not it does happen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

You can't expect for someone who doesn't believe in God to get what it's about. Just like we as people who believe in God don't understand atheists beliefs. It's oil and water, they don't mix.

What I don't understand is this, why can't people just let others have their beliefs? Why do we have to argue back and forth? This is ridiculous, and it's all over this site. Arguing, name calling, the bible says this, I say that, God does this, I do that. Where is it getting us? No where, that's where.

Argue if you want, for those who believe, well, believe, for those who don't, don't, we all have the right to believe what we want. Quote scripture, the atheists will come up with something else to dispute it, tell them your beliefs, they'll come up with a way to dispute that. It's a lose, lose situation, no winning, just fighting. Why can't we just let it be already and agree to disagree?

Enough already, I'm sticking with my dads advice on this one. Don't ever discuss politics or religion if you want to avoid a fight.

To the rest of you, good luck with your losing battle.

Tj3,
Right!
Many people refuse to accept that for human beings doing bad this is a fact of life.
Also that often being punished for that is also a fact of this life.
Choux says that she does not believe in a spiritual "after this life".
But what does happen during this one strongly points to that fact that there IS a next life where what we do now is dealt with then.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Altenweg,
I for one do let people believe as they want to.
But in a discussion such as this those different beliefs come to the fore and are expressed by the believers on how they believe.
It is how we get to know each other.
I have some atheist friends whom I like and they are welcome to believe as they wish. It does not change my liking of them.
They have made their choice as I have mine, and discussing it from time to time seems to be a normal thing to have happen.
That should NOT cause ill feeling or name calling or bigotry.
If it does it is time to stop.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred, go around the site, see all the arguments that are going on in the religious discussion board. The same offenders, time and time again, saying the same stuff, giving the same arguments, getting mad, name calling, picking apart arguments, beliefs, and each other.

I agree with you, believe what you want, and if you can have a mature rational discussion about your differing beliefs, then great, go for it, but I've never seen a mature rational discussion on religion on this site, not once, it's war and they will fight to the death any way they can.

I'm just so tired of it. Why do some people just have to be right, no matter what, for something they cannot with 100% certainty prove or disprove. It's belief, and it's everyone's right to believe or not. Stop fighting about it, it gets you no where, that's what I think.

I know it won't stop, some people just love to fight, love to belittle others, put down their beliefs and faith for their own entertainment. Until those people stop and realize that all they are doing is causing dissention, there will continue to be fights about religion. Personally, I'm done. I'll stick to the sexuality boards and the discussion boards, they're safe. :)

Good luck everyone, no matter what you believe, or whether you believe, I believe in your right to believe it. Just remember, you beliefs are yours, not everyone else's, so show some respect, okay?

When the bible speaks of hell or sheol, it is actually a place where garbage was burned and dead were sometimes buried. Hell is not a real place of toture for sinners. Christianity has lost it's roots in Christ and has used fear of damnation for centuries. This can not be reconciled with the blood of Christ or an all loving God. Just allow yourself to believe that God loves you as you are, flaws and all, and that Christ's blood was shed for all sinners. We are renewed once we believe that. Ignore all the damnation stuff. It isn't real.

Altenweg,
I'm sorry to see you go.
I do respect you and all others here.
I do believe that belittling others is wrong and counterproductive.
It is wasteful to boot.
Please reconsider ans sick around.
It is voices like yours on that subject that NEED to be heard often.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thisnthatshoppe

When the bible speaks of hell or sheol, it is actually a place where garbage was burned and dead were sometimes buried. Hell is not a real place of toture for sinners. Christianity has lost it's roots in Christ and has used fear of damnation for centuries. This can not be reconciled with the blood of Christ or an all loving God. Just allow yourself to believe that God loves you as you are, flaws and all, and that Christ's blood was shed for all sinners. We are renewed once we believe that. Ignore all the damnation stuff. It isn't real.

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Hell is a real place and will be tossed into the Lake of Fire which is eternal.

Rev 14:10-11
E shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NKJV

They were created as a place of punishment for Satan and the demons, but Satan managed to convince men to follow him into hell.

Quote:

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Galveston1 disagrees: Job 1:12 clearly says that God ALLOWED Satan to test Job. Satan was happy to do so!

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I didn't say anything about who allowed whom to do what. Please reread what I wrote.

Apparently you too have missed the point that the Book of Job makes.

Wondergirl,
Clearly God allowed Satan to test Job and Job passed the test.
From the New Jerusalem Version.
Job 1: 6. One day when the sons of God came to attend on Yahweh, among them came Satan.
7. So Yahweh said to Satan, "Where have you been?" "Prowling about on earth," he answered, "roaming around there."
8. So Yahweh asked him, "Did you pay any attention to my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth: a sound and honest man who fears God and shuns evil."
9. `Yes," Satan said, "but Job is not God-fearing for nothing, is he?
10. Have you not put a wall round him and his house and all his domain? You have blessed all he undertakes, and his flocks throng the countryside.
11. But stretch out your hand and lay a finger on his possessions: then, I warrant you, he will curse you to your face."
12. `Very well," Yahweh said to Satan, "all he has is in your power. But keep your hands off his person." So Satan left the presence of Yahweh.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Clearly God allowed Satan to test Job and Job passed the test.

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Yes, dear Fred. I agree. That wasn't what I was saying.

What's the point of including the Book of Job in the canon?

If someone or something gives me free will to live the life I choose, that doesn't seem very strict. If we are to believe that Job only lived that one life, then yes, God is capricious and cruel. The story was an example of faith, Job's faith, not God's cruelty.

Wondergirl,
I and many others think that it is a marvelous ancient poem which presents an extraordinarily good story on suffering through great loss, challenges and trials to be eventually successful in achieving blessing and redemption from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I've often wondered about this...

What if, through the Bible, God taught us that to love Him would ultimately end with eternal damnation to Hell. However, we are to love Him anyway... a true test the love for our Creator.

Those that loved Him would have to suffer and burn in Hell for Eternity... those that didn't, would dine in Heaven for the rest of the ages.

How many of those who call themselves Christians would still Love their God?

DrJizzle,
That is a good question but it is unfounded.
The bible is the basis of our information about God.
In it we find much more that God ks loving, forgiving, and merciful much more than a being who wants to punish people.
It is far more easy to love a God like that than the sort that you post mentions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

The bible is the basis of our information about God.

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Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

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Au contraire! God gave each person a conscience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

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Rom 1:18-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
NKJV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Au contraire! God gave each person a conscience.

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My point exactly. Direct personal knowledge is the primary source. Placing the Bible above it is idolatry.