As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D
|
As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D
Many people THINK they are saved because they said the sinners prayer or they grew up in church or they religiously do good works but Matthew 7 says
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
Iniquity.
So I believe if you are truly saved then you can not lose your salvation
THE "LOSE" YOUR SALVATION MISDIRECTION
You know, words mean things. They often quite specific. The word "lose" is one of those pretty specific words. In the Christian debate over the permanence of the salvation experience, I get pretty frustrated when the phrase "lose your salvation" is tossed around. It's awfully vague and inaccurate. It misdirects the whole debate.
I really wish we could get EVERYONE to stop people from asking "can you lose your salvation"? Anytime you hear it, you stop, and correct the premise. Salvation isn't a set of keys to be misplaced. It's not a wrong turn leading you to the wrong address.
The real issue here is "once you have experienced God's grace on your life, once you have accepted His gift and claimed him as your Lord, can that ever be undone?"
To answer that, I often have to correct another slight misgiving people have about becoming saved. The Bible tells us that we are not saved by anything man does, but we are saved by what God has done in sacrificing His Son so that we do not have to experience the punishment for our sins ourself. Ok, fine and good.
So your salvation can't be "lost" accidentally along the way, but it can be forfeited on purpose. So the answer to the question "can salvation be undone?" I believe is "yes"... but only through intentional free will at work.
BUT, we actually DO have to do something to be saved. MAN has to make a choice, MAN has to choose to accept the gift given. So, we are participants in the process. We can choose God, or choose not God.
Once we acknowledge our required part in the "finding salvation" process, AND we've corrected the question about permanence removing the inappropriate word "lost", I believe the debate is simpler.
My belief is you cannot "lose" your salvation, if you sin after Christ has established himself in your life (and you WILL sin), then those sins are covered by the blood sacrifice. But, I believe you can CHOOSE to walk away from the gift. Free Will says this must be the case.
You choose to accept Christ, and you can intentionally choose to deny him forever at some point in the future. You can walk away. You cannot lose your salvation through sin alone, since all sin is equal in God's eye and thus all sin is covered by the grace gift.
... and the Bible says they are given over to a reprobate mind meaning they have no desire to *come back* to God. If they still have a desire to come back then they are more like the prodigal son.
YES a person can loose his/her salvation.:eek:
I’ll try to keep this short, but a small book could be written to cover all the different ways.
If we believe what the bible says about salvation.
Once saved always saved (or know so salvation) is a heresy.
The bible tells us in several ways that faith alone does not save.
The clearest message about that is in the book of James.
It says that a faith without works is dead.
A dead faith is and unproven faith. It is merely a claimed faith with nothing to back it up.
Another of the several ways a person can loose salvation is shown by statements Jesus made in several ways.
Basically it is this you must be forgiven of your sins and if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Also, the Lord’s Prayer Jesus taught us gives a clear understanding of that, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
In that we actually ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.
If we don’t He won’t.
If we forgive with reservations such as, “I’ll forgive them only when they apologies and ask for forgiveness then I will do so.”
How many of us can remember every sin we commit?
How many people who have sinned against us can remember or even KNOW that they have sinned against us in thought, word, or deed?
In that stipulation we are asking God to forgive only the sins we confess and are sorry for, not those we have forgotten or don’t realize that we sinned.
Another way to lose salvation is for a person who once DID accept God and Christ’s salvation latter rejects them such as a once believer who turns to become an atheist.
Such does happen and often it happens to those who are converted to godless science beliefs.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)
I agree that "lose" is an inaccurate term as been said you don't just drop your salvation and then forgot where it fell, losing it forever. It is clearly an act of free will and you can choose to abandon or turn your back on the gift God has given.
I have been challenged by this key theological issue by a book I am reading (Driven by Eternity) and am in agreement with the author and what you all are saying. This message should not be overlooked in our churches as we all need to have a firm view on this foundational premise and have a healthy fear of the Lord.
Thanks for your feedback.
We are not to set stumbling blocks before others or we ourselves do sin. But to follow Christ is acknowledgement of all that is written as truth about Him. Christ was worthy as the begotten Son of God. Walking with Christ is loving God as He loves us. We are told that even as believers we still are sinners but those sins are wash clean in Christ. Humble yourself in knowing you can not rid yourself of those sin. God knows what is within your heart. You must be accountable to your actions
The answer to your question is that I was making the statement shown because of the quote below or part of it. This idea quoted is a traditionally taught way of looking at what the scripture have said. They were taught to confess each sin as they knew it. He has even questioned how anyone can know them all.. So he ended it that he has only confess sins that he knew... This is such a sad stumbling stone that was taught. For Christ Truth has brought so much more...Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
I hope that God brings him closer to the Truth in knowing all sins are forgiven when you repent and humble yourself knowing you are a sinner, and it is not confess to each that makes or breaks your salvation. As I said you can not rid yourself of sin by confession. Jesus is the judge and no one else.. . what is in your heart and soul is what matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
OK, that makes sense. We're just drifting slightly (not far) off topic, so I got lost. (easy for me to do... hehe).
sndbay,
It is not I who said that your sins are not forgive IF you do not forgive others.
Jesus Christ said it in several ways.
I believe Jesus he made it clear that If we forgive others only then He will forgive us.
That IS in the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness
Yes Jesus told us to be of pure hearted. Loving one another and not causing harm to one another. It is also a commandment. So in being forgiving to others is another way of saying be pure hearted to others. And Christ is not likely to find forgiveness in someone that holds no love for others in his heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
`In Chirst
sndbay,
Very good observation on that.
Well said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
The Bible is CLEAR on this... IF you are a Blood bought, born again Christian, IN CHRIST, CHRIST IN YOU, sealed with the HOlY SPIRIT of promise, there is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING that can cause you to LOSE your salvation! Period...Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I will ONLY add this... I said... IF!
Lose accidentally or sin away = no.
Walk away from intentionally or forfeit = yes.
As I explained presiously here, there ARE ways that a person CAN lose their salvation. The bible makes that clear. Jesus Christ's words on it make that clear.
You must be forgiven to get into heaven and IF you do not forgive others you will NOT be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
If they 'lose' their salvation and never 'find it' again they were never really 'saved' and only believed they were.
If they were truly 'saved' and lost it then the verse about God giving them over to a reprobate mind applies and you have to do some really serious sin for that.
If you do not forgive then you have not grown spiritually and most likely never really saved to begin with.
Many people think they can say the sinners prayer, or a bunch of hail Mary's or do good works, or even say I am saved because my grandma told me. So really it is a fruitless argument as long as we do not know the persons real heart and do not know IF they were ever truly 'saved' to begin with.
I agree. You cannot lose your salvation!Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
And anyone who "walks away" from salvation wasn't saved to begin with.
I can't help but wonder if those who think salvation can be lost truly feel the strength and power of the Holy Spirit.
If anyone could go from truly saved to not saved then Jesus' death would not be good enough. I feel pity in my heart for anyone who believes such a thing. The only thing Jesus' death does not cover is those who don't accept God's free gift of salvation through the Son Jesus. Jesus' blood covers ALL sin.
Therefore salvation cannot be lost, and anyone who is truly saved wouldn't walk away from it!
Jesus tells us in several ways that one must forgive others to be forgiven.
He talk us to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass against us."
It is clear that salvation is NOT for those who refuse to forgive.
Whether you want to call that lose salvation or never had, the fact of Jesus Christ's words remains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Arcura:
I admit this is, at times, confusing to me,
Does faith come first then the deeds, as referred to by James, such as forgiving others, come after?
Or is the deeds that lead to faith?
I appreciate your opinion.Quote:
John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
Grace and Peace,
Gerry
If we examine the Greek text we find that the word in the NT translated as "faith" and "faithfulness" is the same word (in Greek it is pistis). This will help us understand that our faith, if it is real, will exhibit itself in faithfulness (thus deeds). To be faithful, one must first have faith. It would make no sense to suggest that one could exhibit their faithfulness to God before they had faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
If we consider scripture this way, the relationship between faith and works becomes clearer. For example, the passage that is often used to suggest that works are necessary for salvation suddenly loses the apparent ambiguity:
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV
If we replace the word "faith" with "faithfulness", we read:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faithfulness without works is dead also."
This makes sense. If a person truly has faith, that faith will exhibit itself in faithfulness by means of works. If a person is not faithful by acting on that faith, then one could rightly ask if they have a true or living faith. Read with this understanding of the original Greek, we can see that there is no passage which, read in context, suggests that works comes first.
Further, scripture is clear that woprks without first having faith in God cannot please God:
Rom 8:7-8
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NKJV
Thus it is first faith, which results in faithfulness, which produces works pleasing to God.
inthebox,
It appears to me that what Tj3 is doing is twisting Scripture to fit the idea that faith alone saves.
That ignores the very many passages which tell the Christians to do go works, thus working their faith.
Yes, a truly strong faithful person will try to do as Jesus and the apostles tell us regarding doing go works, but the other side of the coin is that not doing works is a dead faith as scripture clearly says.
Doing good works also lays up a treasure in heaven where niether thief breaks on or moth destroys.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Rather than attacking the person, why don't you get into the Bible, go to the Greek, and if you feel that I erred then demonstrate that from the word of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Attacking a person with accusations of "twisting" because they fail to agree with you is not convincing. If we truly want to hear what God's word has to say, we need to be willing to allow it to speak to us, and not force fit our personal views or those of our denominations on to what scripture says.
Why don't you show us why you believe that the Greek does not say what I indicated? Do you have a lexicon reference to show us?
I don't mean to start a debate.
I appreciate both Arcura and Tj3's input. Thank you both.
Sorry Mountain Man - good question.
Grace and Peace all,
Gerry
Not a problem Inthebox! You became passionate no harm.
I appreciate all the feedback and responses.
We should be clear that this is a much debated topic which very mature Christians still sometimes have to "chew on" for a time.
It is a "chicken or the egg" type debate that leaves a lot of IF's in question.
This question was raised for me out of a book that I am reading (Driven by Eternity, John Bevire). Before the book I believed you could not "forfeit" your salvation BUT now I believe you can. BUT still very interesting takes from all of you.
Stay strong in your faith until the end and have a healthy fear of the Lord that created you and this will not become an issue.
Revelation 3:5
All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.
Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 7
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Yes. Salvation can be lost.
savedsinner7,
Yes. Good post.
You posted some of the many bible teachings on that subject that some people do ignore.
Know-so-salvation is un-biblical and a heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Could you define what you mean by "know-so-salvation"?
I am sure that you are aware that God provides assurance of salvation to those who have receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:
1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV
Therefore I presume that this is not what you mean. But it is not clear what you do mean by "know-so-salvation". Please clarify.
Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation) IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
That is what I believe; the bible.
And I WILL NOT discuss it further with YOU.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It seems to me that you raised the point and since the term has not been defined previously, I believe that it is important to do so to avoid mis-understanding. Check your accusations at the door when you come in!
This sounds like you are saying that you are defining "know-so-salvation" (which you say is a heresy) is the Biblical assurance of salvation. Is that correct? Because if that is what you are saying, I must explicitly disagree that scripture teaches heresy.Quote:
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation)
This is why I think that we need to be clear on terminology.
I agree that faith does not save - It is believing in Christ that saves.Quote:
IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV
I trust that you understanding the differentiation between "believing" and "believing in Christ".
Are you saying that there is something other than believing in Christ that is essential for salvation?
Tj3,
As I said, I will NOT discuss it further with YOU!
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You are always welcome to believe as you wish. But I trust that you are aware that this area is for discussion, and I and others who may or may not agree with you have an equal right to believe as we wish and to provide the scriptural basis for those beliefs.
If you chose not to respond to what I post, that is okay with me and that is your option. But that will not stop me from posting and validating my position.
Tom
No. You can Not lose your salvation. We are made perfect and justified by the blood of Christ. Many Christians say otherwise, but that is because they have either not studied the Bible closely and have listened to what others teach, or just don't fully understand the teachings. The Bible tells us that all we need to do is believe that christ is our saviour. Our human bodies will never be perfect, nor will our carnal actions. God does not expect them to be. It is our spirit that is perfect and that is what he is most interested in. God is not petty nor vindictive as some would have us believe. God loves us as we are.
There is no such thing in the bible as "Onced Saved, Always Saved". In fact, even saved, there is possibility to go back to perdition as stated in Hebrews 10:38-39
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
One perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot who sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver.
Criado,
Excellent passages and example.
The reason I will not discuss his subject farther with Tom Smith (Tj3) is that I have been on boards with him and others like him where it has been shown be me and many others that the bible clearly tells us in may ways and passages that the idea of once "saved always saved" is not in the bible and indeed is a heresy.
Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.
I an many others are certain the Judas loved and believed Jesus up to a point.
He THOUGHT that with Christ's power he would resist arrest which he could have done or call a leagion of angels to protect Him.
But that would have been a conflict to Christ Jesus' mission.
Judas could not get that through his head so he lost the salvation that he once had.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Thank you for a great example of why there are problems in communication on boards like this. We (you and me, though you may imagine others) may have discussed many things, but you have not taken the time to read what I have said. I see it over and over when you mis-represent me. Indeed, though we have had discussions, I do not remember you ever asking me my views on this specific topic. Maybe you just guessed?
Now listen clearly:
I do not believe in once saved always saved.
Is that clear now?
However, I also do not agree that it is a heresy, and I can receive those who disagree with me on OSAS as brothers in Christ, though I do not agree that their position accurately reflects what scripture says. What we do find in scripture is that we can not "lose" our salvation (i.e. John 10:28), but we can reject or turn away from it wilfully (1 Tim 4:1, 1 Tim 6:10, Heb 6:4-6).
Now let's see if you continue to make that mis-representation. Perhaps if you take the time to actually read what I said, and interact respectfully, we can have a dialogue, as I have suggested many times before.
This is another problem. You accuse people of believing this, but you consistently refuse to define what you mean. That is a logic fallacy known as a "straw-man"Quote:
Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.
No. Scripture is clear:Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Sin.Quote:
or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation?
Galatians 5 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.
I hope that helps.Quote:
Very interested to get your feedback.:D
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tj3,
Thank you for making your belief on that clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Thanks for the input on the topic I posted. I do believe as most of you that you can turn your back on God's assurance of salvation or reject it. There are many passages in the Bible that support that theology and we should live accordingly with fear and reverence to a God who has offered such a wonderful gift and promises eternal rewards for great faith through the long race.
To Tom and Fred: As brothers in Christ I find it very hard to listen to your bickering regarding this principle and only see a division occurring between you, when you both love and follow the same Saviour. Put aside the small differences and focus on unconditional love and respect for one another.
Mountain_man, Fred has denied that he follows the same Saviour as I do, and has suggested that by following the Biblical gospel that I am unsaved.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
There is no bickering from my side, but I am concerned about Fred. As Fred well knows, I have told him many times that I bear no ill will towards him, and remain hopeful and willing that someday that he will put down the hatchet and accept my offer. I have even offered to take whatever he has against me off line and discuss it with him, but he has rejected each attempt.
Nonetheless, my sincere offer to keep the door open for him will never expire. I remain hopeful that someday he will take me up on it. I do hope that he will be with us in heaven to spend eternity worshiping God.
As you have all quoted bible and verse very admirably ( I commend you all ) I will just put my simplistic view...
If you turn away from the hand that feeds you, it is very difficult for that hand to open up again, however the option is always there, for the hand to re-open
e,g born again
Blessings
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:15 PM. |