Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
Since Saul was not baptized until Acts 9:18 which is clearly after Jesus came to him, he prayed, Jesus heard him and Jesus healed him, I believe that is how you know Saul was not saved when those things occurred.
There is another Saul which we can consider which illustrates what I'm talking about:
Now, if you know Scripture, you know that Saul was once faithful and God heard his voice:
1 Kings 10
6 And the spirit of the Lord shall come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be changed into another man. 7 When therefore these signs shall happen to thee, do whatsoever thy hand shall find, for the Lord is with thee.
But power went to Saul's head and he became unfaithful to the point that God departed from him and would no longer answer his prayers. And Saul had to resort to sorcery:
1 Kings 28
15 And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up? And Saul said, I am in great distress: for the Philistines fight against me, and God is departed from me, and would not hear me, neither by the hand of prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest show me what I shall do.
Note that even though Saul believes in God, he is not being faithful to God and God has departed from him.
Quote:
If what De Maria says is believed by the OP and she accepts God does not listen to her prayers because she is unfaithful then I offer the following to her: if Saul was faithful by obeying God law’s given to the Jews then he would not have gone against God and listened to the Pharisees and broke the first commandment given to the Jews and committed murder. The Pharisees "thought" they were doing a service to God so De Maria says he "would say that God saw his misplaced zeal"... Hitler felt killing Jews was right.
Huh? Where did that come from?
That comparison is completely invalid and I beieve, unfair. Hitler did not believe in God. If you have studied his entire story you will find that Hitler pretended faith in God in order to lull believers into a state of confidence which would make them easier to dispose of.
To compare the devout and overzealous Jews of Jesus' time to Hiter is completely off base. I know you have bowed out of this debate, and I respect you for that, but you might want to qualify that statement.
Quote:
He was wrong. The Bible says that the heart is deceitful and untrustworthy (Jer. 17:9). If you could come to know truth by what you felt, then the Bible, which is the revelation of God, didn't need to be written. But it has been written, and it has revealed that only God is the Source of truth, not your feelings. So, my stance is not that God listened to Saul because he was faithful but rather it is evident in the scripture that he was not faithful and God listened to him and answered him anyway. God saw a usable heart in Saul and showed him great mercy and grace knowing that He could use Saul to do great things for God.
Actually, the Bible kind of tells you whom you should turn tu:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
That is why separating yourself from the Church is the same as separating yourself from Christ.
Ephesians 5 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.
Quote:
JesusHelper, I sincerely appreciate your objection to our debate with the belief that it is not directly helping the OP. I hope maybe the following will allow you to see my reason for continuing the debate in an effort to help the OP.
I feel the same for the opposite reason of course.
Quote:
It has been said “So, don't expect your prayers answered until you go to Church, ask forgiveness, turn your life around and begin doing the will of God”
Correct.
Quote:
I have said “You don't have to prove yourself for God to answer prayers. God answers the prayers even of those who have not accepted Him. When the alcoholic has hit the bottom of the bottle and cries up "Ok God if you are really up there, save me!" God does!”
The OP stated, “It's not that I didn't believe in God I just stopped going to church when I entered University.”
Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt when she said she believed, for the purpose of answering her, I took the stance that she has accepted Christ and salvation. So, I addressed her as a saved person when I gave my opinion. My point in saying that God hears even an unsaved person was to show that He would certainly hear her, being righteous through Christ. That her salvation is not conditional upon works, therefore God listening to her would also not be conditional upon her works.
However, this is an unscriptural stance, Scripture is clear that faith is expressed in works and without works of faith we are not justified:
James 2 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Quote:
My belief, unlike De Maria’s, is that once we accept Christ we are covered by His blood and thereby already forgiven for all the sins we have committed and the sins we will commit, unconditionally.
That remains an unscriptural stance. Yes we are cleansed by the blood of Christ, but we must persevere to the end. We don't just say, I believe and get into heaven no matter what we do thereafter. Scripture is clear:
Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein?
Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:
Therefore, her not going to church would not cause God to stop listening to her.
Not only that but worse.
Hebrews 10 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Missing the Mass is a mortal sin. Why? Because if we don't accept the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross, if we don't value His Body and Blood and long to be united to Him at least every seven days, then we have insulted the Spirit of Grace.
Quote:
De Maria’s difference of belief seems to be in that he believes that you must prove your faith by your works and my belief is that through your faith your works will automatically be evident in your life because Christ resides in you.
Except it doesn't work that way in real life. How many people do we all know who claim to be faithful yet engage in all types of sinful behaviour. And they don't intend to stop.
Works of faith are transformative. The more you do them the more you love God and the more you love God the more you want to please Him by doing His works. That is why works are so imporant. And a person who lets his faith show forth in his works is more trustworthy than one who simply claims to be faithful but produces no fruit:
John 15 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Quote:
I believe that if Christ lives in you your life can not remain unchanged. So you will “have done works” pleasing to God. But there are areas in all of us that will continually need improvement to become more Christlike. And my point was maybe going to church was one of those areas for Davejag, that maybe God has been working on other areas of her life and now He was tugging on her heart and letting her know He wants her to work on that issue. I believe God moves us into compliance with His laws by convicting us to obey a little more all the time.
I agree. But this is not the same as answering prayer.
Quote:
Therefore, not ignoring her prayers for “her rebellion of not going to church” but rather that 2 possible things are happening. Satan was doing what he does best and sending his kingdom of minion to attack her. And, God was answering her but because God gives three answers to prayer, yes, no and wait, that since things seem to get worse for her the answer was not yes right now, that the only answers left would be no or not yet. I don’t presume to know which one of those God was telling her. Davejag- It is possible that God, knowing your heart and that you have faith, is just pulling you in line with His will for your life by wanting you to re associate with other believers by going to church and may find through that, help with your personal issues. But my point was that God does hear her and answer her. I was allowing our debate to show the reasons of both sides between my beliefs and De Maria’s to give the OP as much information as necessary to decide what she believes. De Maria was saying that the OP is unfaithful therefore being unheard by God, it is his opinion “that Scripture shows that God does not answer the prayers of the unfaithful or unbelieving” and he has stated why he believes that. I don’t believe that she is unfaithful and wanted to show her the reasons I believe the way I do. So, if she believes what De Maria says and that God has not been listening to her because she is unfaithful she has his supporting reasons for that. And if she chooses to believe that she is not unfaithful then she has the reasons to believe that and possible explanations for what is happening with her. What she decides to believe will be between her and God.
I am truly not trying to convince De Maria of my beliefs through this debate. I believe it is quite clear De Maria is convinced what he believes is true. I respect that.
Amen! I feel the same way in regards to you.
Quote:
Only God can make Him see different. (I have learned a bit more about Catholicism through De Maria, and I thank you for that.) But through this debate the OP can possibly better see the reasons, evidence to believe something said here if she chooses to believe any of it.
Exactly.
Quote:
I hope I have explained why I feel this debate, although lengthy and seemingly off track, does in fact apply to the OP’s question and situation. And is important to the subject at hand for anyone reading who may be in the same position as the OP. At least in my opinion. I believe I have said all that needs to be said though, so, I respectfully end my participation in the "debate" and offer only one more thing to the OP...
My advice is not to be hindered by condemnation and fear from satan but obey God and move closer to Him and seek out a good church and to not be afraid to pray, God is listening to you. Have faith that God's will is best for you even if it seems to be getting worse, He has a great plan and knows what is best for you. Our salvation is evident to God through our Hearts, our salvation is evident to others through our "works". Our salvation is a free gift from God and will be evident by our works it we truly have accepted His gift.
Ephesians 2:4-10
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9not by works, so that no one can boast.
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I agree with the end of your message. I also bow out at this time.
Sincerely,
De Maria
