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This has never sat right with me and it was drilled into my head when I was in catholic school. Why would God punish us all from what the first two people on earth did. Why does everyone come in to life with a sin. Just doesn't seem logical. To me that story of original sin is a scare tactic to get people to baptist a child and make them part of this religion. So what's the deal why are we all punished at birth from what the first two people on earth did.
I agree with you. It is a sad thing that many people fear God. God would like us to be friends with him. Instead, we are taught to cower before any and all Deity as if it were a punishing parent. A father figure who is angry and demands that all of us suffer because He has been angered. People can and do hold stupid grudges like that. But a God?
When Adam and Eve symbolically ate from the tree of knowledge, they discovered the duality of this world. They then understood that they were separate from God. They had not been aware of it before. Before they "disobeyed" they were "perfect." The question is why? Why were they told not to indulge? Why did they try it anyway? I believe that feeling the separation was necessary. Otherwise, God would not have put opportunity in their path.
Sadly people expect things to fit into the idea that they think is right. All though the bible, ( we can leave the old testement out of it, if you would like) Even in Pauls writing we are told that all people are sinners, and that none are saved without forgiveness of their sins.
We also see in the old testment that God's punishment is sometimes continued to several generations. We even see God's anger and punishment being applied to an entire town or nation because of the basic evil of the overall nation.
I may not like it, I may not think God should work that way, but it realllyis not up to me. God has given us warnings and has given us a way to get out of that punishment. To the early church before Christ, they were given a procedure to get forgiveness every year at a sacrifice
For man today, he has been given Christ to be their sacrifice.
So God has always either directly forgave man as he did in the very early part of the bible and mans history, or he always had a procedure that allowed man to decide if he wanted to return back to God.
God could have merely forced us all to do his will, but he wants those to follow him that want to, that is why there is free choice. Man has always paid the price for evil in others life, If a killer kills a husband, the widow and her children pay the price for his sin, Man in WWII paid the price for the evil and sin of Hilter, how many in the US suffered loss because of the evil of this one man.
So yes, we all suffer because of the evil of those that came before us.
You do not have to accept the teachings of original sin. You say that was drilled into you growing up Catholic. Well, surprise to you - it is also taught in Protestant religions too. However, it is not found in Jewish theology or in Islam teachings.
Original sin refers to the fallen state of humanity. Now you can choose to believe that or not. Maybe you want to read the writings of Augustine of Hippo, who believed original sin was the effect of the total of "world sin" brought via Adam and Eve's sin against God. Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You are an adult now and can decide these matters for yourself. If do not agree with your upbringing, that is only for you to decide. Attempt to make your life a growth experience with the Lord. If you do not agree with the Catholic Church's teachings, then search for a church who does teach according to the Bible - searching for a church that teaches what you want to hear is not going to get you very far.
There are Christian religions ( LDS) that do not believe that we are born into sin. From the LDS articles of faith " WE believe that man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adams transgressions." We do believe though, that we will all sin and thus need the gift of the Resurrected Savior in order for us to return to our Heavenly Father. WE have the gift of agency and will choose at times to live contrary to GOd's plan and so we will have consequences for those choices. I also believe that GOd loves all of his children and truly wants them all to return to him.
I cannot speak to what you were taught in Catholic school, but what you have described is not the Biblical position on the doctrinal of the original sin. The Biblical position (and I will provide scripture references if you need them) is that when Adam and Eve sinned, our nature changed and we gained an orientation towards sin, a desire to sin. As we see in scripture, God said that the heart of man is evil continually (Gen 6:5). The heart represents the innermost desires of man, and our desire is to things which are sinful. Thus the doctrine of the original sin is that through the original sin of Adam, all men and indeed all nature changed from a holy nature to a sinful nature which gravitates towards sin. Creation fell.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
That does not mean that we are born with sin or punished for sin that we did not commit. Absolutely not. What is does mean is that each of us has the desire to sin, and has made our own choice to sin, and has sinned (Rom 3:23). That is why today we find that porn on internet is more popular than Bible studies - the orientation of men is towards sin. We are held responsible for the sins that we have committed. That is why Jesus had to come as God in the flesh, the perfect man, to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins.
Paul describes it like this - in our sin nature, we are slaves to sin, and we can only be set free of that slavery to sin, but submitting ourselves to Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and then allowing ourselves to become slaves to His righteousness.
I don't believe in a lot of Catholic doctorine.
I look at it more like we were born into this world of sin so sort of by association
we are IN sin. Sort of like disease, if we are in a room that is contaminated we can not be totally free from the contamination. We have it within ourselves to grow up living a life of good or choosing bad because we have sin nature, but it doesn't mean we are sin punished at birth.
Hope this makes sense.
(American Standard Version)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Copyright © 1901 Public Domain
Yes original sin is in the bible, plus sin being based on to another generation is part of every Christian religions if they accept the 10 commandments and what the bible says
Exodus 20:4-7
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Ps 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conveive me
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spriit is spirit
Eph4:22 Put off concerning the former converstation, the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts
Gen 8:21 The imagination of mans's heart is evil from his youth
Matt 27: 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. *** In this the descendants of Ham ore the curse of their ancestors sin
Eccl 7:20 Thre is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not
Is 64:6 We are all as an unclen thing and all our righteousness are as filthy rags
But yes you can easily find a religion that will teach what you want, since man would prefer to go to churches that teath what they want to hear over all the truths in the bible
Original sin is not a Catholic doctrine ( OK it is but not just theirs)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
it is a Orthodox, a Anglican, a lutheran and I am sure a dozen more Christian churches, It is more accepted in all of Christianity, except for the newer churches of the last few 100 years that have developed their own teachings
And before one says Lutheran or other protestants don't, I am sitting with the small catechism of the lutheran church which I used for all of my documentation of bible verses. I can even give you page numbers it comes form where they teach original sin.
I know I am not saying I do not believe original sin but what I meant was I don't believe it quit ACCORDING TO the Catholics explanation.
Not sure what you call a Catholic explanation, thiers come from the bible
Let's have a look at these passages:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
This is not referring to the original sin. Note that it says that the children are punished for the up to the 4th generation of those who "hate me". Here are the problems with using this to support the belief that we are all held guilty for Adam's sin:Quote:
Exodus 20:4-7
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
1) Using this, you would be saying that the sin nature is not passed on to children of Christians (since Christians don't hate God. That is contrary to scripture, and indeed contrary to every orthodox understanding of the doctrine of the Original Sin (sin nature).
2) This does NOT say that the sin is passed on, but rather that the children are punished, or in effect that the children suffer as a result of the sin up to the fourth generation. Look at the children and grandchildren of people involved in drug abuse for example for an example of how this plays out in practice.
So in context, this verse does not support your position regarding the passing on of the actual sin of Adam as opposed to the sin nature.
Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned, so we know his mother sinned. This says nothing about the person being held responsible for Adam's sin.Quote:
Ps 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conveive me
John 3:4-8Quote:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spriit is spirit
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
In context this is speaking about what needs to be done to be saved. Again, nothing here about being held responsible for the sin of Adam.
This is speaking about lusts, which is the sinful nature, the sin orientation, which agrees which what I said, but says nothing about us being held to pay for the sin of Adam.Quote:
Eph4:22 Put off concerning the former converstation, the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
Gen 8:21 The imagination of mans's heart is evil from his youth
Matt 27:22-26Quote:
Matt 27: 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
22 Pilate said to them, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said to him, "Let Him be crucified!" 23 Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, saying, "Let Him be crucified!" 24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it." 25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children." 26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
NKJV
In context, this is an angry, anti-Christian mob asking for Christ's blood to be put upon them, not a declaration of doctrine from God, nor does it speak of us being held responsible for the sin of Adam.
Curses are often placed upon persons or nations for what has been done, but again, that goes back to the comments that I made above ion Exodus 20. Let's us also not forget that these curses are broken by receiving Christ as Saviour, but the passing on of the sin nature from generation to generation which is the topic at hand, will continue until the return of Christ because it is our flesh which is corrupt.Quote:
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. *** In this the descendants of Ham ore the curse of their ancestors sin
Again, this is the same as Romans 3:23, but says nothing about us being responsible to pay the price for Adam's sin.Quote:
Eccl 7:20 Thre is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not
Is 64:6 We are all as an unclen thing and all our righteousness are as filthy rags
The doctrine of the sins nature if true, but none of us will be called to pay the price for Adam's sin, however because of the corruption of the flesh that resulted from his sin, we all have sinned and will be held accountable for our own sin. That is why we must receive Christ as Saviour.
If it was only Adam's sin that we were paying the price for, then all that would be necessary would be for the blood of Christ to pay the price for Adam's sin and we would all be saved.
I do not dispute the Biblical doctrine of the original sin corrupting all nature and making us salves to sin, but scripture does not support the believe that all men are guilty of the sins of their ancestors. Indeed quite the opposite, for example:
Deut 24:16
16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
NKJV
Paul's teaching on the doctrine of the original Sin:
Rom 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJV
Note that through one man and one sin, sin entered the world, and through sin, death entered the world. Yet is is not sin which is is passed down, but the effect of sin, which is death, which comes through the corruption of nature. It is as a result of this, that even without sin, death is in our flesh, and death in this context speaks both of physical and spiritual death because as a result of the sin nature that we inherited, we are slaves to sin, as Paul goes on to explain in Romans 6:
Rom 6:16-23
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV
When we are born, we have the sin nature and are slaves to sin, and thus we all sin (Romans 3:23). But we have the freedom to come to Christ, accept His free gift on the cross, and to become slaves to righteousness by submitting ourselves to His Lordship as our Saviour.
We therefore sin, and are held responsible for our own sin which results from us being slaves to sin, due to the sin nature inherited since the original sin of Adam. God is not unjust and does not hold us responsible for the sins of others (Deut 14:16), but we are fully responsible for our own sin. And because all have sinned, we are all on our way to hell and have all condemned ourselves if we have not received Christ as our Saviour.
John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
NKJV
Christ's sacrifice on the cross breaks the curse of sin.
Yes, after they have accepted Christ and are baptised, they are forgiven, does not mean that the flesh is not still of the world and contains sin.
And since sin transfers though the father ( that is why Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, thus the transfer of sin did not take place)
Baptism is not essential for salvation (but that is a different topic :) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I cannot agree to that since I see no scriptural validation that sin transmits from parent to child. The sin nature, on the other hand, I do agree is transmitted.Quote:
And since sin transfers though the father ( that is why Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, thus the transfer of sin did not take place)
The Doctrine of *Original Sin* is closely associated with St. Augustine of Hippo who was an influential theologian in the fourth century. For a complete biography written in layman's terms of St. Augustine, check out Wikipedia from which this snippet is taken:
"Augustine taught that Original Sin was transmitted by concupiscence (roughly, lust), weakening the will[20] and making humanity a massa damnata[20] (mass of perdition, condemned crowd). In the struggle against Pelagianism, Augustine's teaching was confirmed by many councils, especially the Second Council of Orange.[20] The identification of concupiscence and Original Sin, however, was challenged by Anselm and condemned in 1567 by Pope Pius V.[20]
Augustine's formulation of the doctrine of original sin has substantially influenced both Catholic and Reformed (that is, Calvinist) theology. His understanding of sin and grace was developed against that of Pelagius.[21] Expositions on the topics are found in his works On Original Sin, On the Predestination of the Saints, On the Gift of Perseverance and On Nature and Grace.
Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all human beings inherit. As sinners, human beings are utterly depraved in nature, lack the freedom to do good, and cannot respond to the will of God without divine grace. Grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.[21] Augustine's idea of predestination rests on the assertion that God has foreordained, from eternity, those who will be saved. The number of the elect is fixed.[21] God has chosen the elect certainly and gratuitously, without any previous merit (ante merita) on their part.
The Roman Catholic Church considers Augustine's teaching to be consistent with free will.[22] He often said that any can be saved if they wish.[22] While God knows who will be saved and who won't, with no possibility that one destined to be lost will be saved, this knowledge represents God's perfect knowledge of how humans will freely choose their destinies.[22]... "
Best wishes,
We inherited their sin as a result and it was imputed to the rest of us. It may not seem "fair" by mortal human standards but we have to remember that we are dealing with God's standards here, not our own. And because we are sinners it is impossible for us to fully understand or think like God, which is precisely why so much of what God does seems "unfair" or "illogical."
"GOD" doesn't punish anyone, that is something created long ago by people who didn't understand the nature of reality and the politics of the time that wanted to control the masses by eradicating free thought and having control over the populace at large.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Ive been alive for quite a while and I have thought of these religious things. The reason so many things in the bible sound "illogical" is that so much of the bible was stricken away or not added, because of the political emperors of the past.
Ive thought about it and as I am a hypnotist and past life regressionist and I have seen anyone go back into their past lives, whether they are religious, believing in nothing, or believe in something between the two, they've all had past lives. I think that the phrase that "Noone is born without sin" is a reference to reincarnation of course.
How else would it make sense that a baby be considered sinful when its not had time to sin? Lol Obviously it's a reference to the lives before, and that this child while innocent in its OWN body, has a soul that contains all the memories of all its journeys its been on in the past.. or possibly in parallel realities.
BTW mathematicians have just proven that parallel worlds exist, did you hear about that? This is the first time they have been able to prove what was a theory by scientists, using math.
Of course people aren't being punished at birth from what "two people" who were supposedly the only two people on the Earth did. No one even knows if it happened on this planet. They weren't the only two people anyway. Remember Adam had a GF/wife before.. lilith, and there was an entire city near Eden. Why is it that Adam can have sex with someone beforehand? Well Eve might have as well, these were male dominated times you know.
Anyway Im not sure if you are serious w/ your questions or if you are simply writing to see what you get. If something DOES NOT MAKE SENSE... do not make it a belief, that is a good way to go through life. Consider what you know and use that to piece together this very fragmented set of ideas from days gone.. but do not use some edited references and take them to heart because it will only sully your own life.
Yes we've had past lives before, I should know that Ive seen it every time and I have regressed and helped enough people, and its hard to believe in 2007 anyone is having these issues with understanding but I think it's that people are passing on their beliefs to their children and never allowing them the freedom of thought and to explore their own minds themselves. Some say "They can make up their own minds when they grow up" but by that time they are so conditioned to not question that they don't bother questioning at all.
It's a good thing that you are questioning because that is a mind that is truly GOD LIKE..
The God concept would never have a mind that only accepts beliefs from others without question because the "God concept" is MULTIFACETED so how is that possible? A multifaceted mind explores.
God would want proof in various different ways. She/He/It would be exploring and creating and comparing. That's what it means to be so strong and fearless.
For someone to think they "know it all" without any research whatsoever and compelling debates.. that is something left to those that just are too fear based to evolve and have been relegated to what was left behind. That's why they are fighting in the mid east so much.. its male dominated,and everyone wants to kill each other based on their religious beliefs, THIS IS LAUGHABLE as nothing that is spiritual would ever involve any kind of VIOLENCE to animal or humankind!!
I've known many people who become atheists because religionists turn them off so much, and that's just the opposite of being religious, they really haven't made any strides in their thinking.. they have gone from believing what they are told, to believing in nothing and not venturing to find out anything either.
Minds are like parachutes they only function when they are open.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to answer your question, spitvenom.
Catholicism/Christianity is faith/belief... it is not fact or knowledge. I gave up Catholicism when I was 18, and I am leaving life as a happy atheist!
Basically I mean what Tj3 said. Catholics make original sin sound more like you are doomed IN sin. I believe it is more that we have a sin nature and we are not born with a spiritual connection with God. I don't believe original sin means it is like you are born punished and hopeless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
What I had wondered at one time that is sort of along the lines of what you are asking is why weren't we all given the opportunity that they were? If we all had that opportunity then surely not everyone would have chosen sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
But then I thought about this, and my thoughts may help you as well... If everyone of us had the same opportunity they did then we could not have been born by man. God would have to create us all as He did Adam and Eve. Not only that, He would have had to separate us from those who chose to sin. The reason being is because we could not know sin at all like Adam and Eve did at first. If we are born to sinners then we see and know sin. Therefore we would have to be completely away from sinners, not knowing sin, then we could be provided the opportunity to listen to God or not. When I thought about it, I realized how ridiculous that would be. And also, it is not necessary for Him to do that since He sent Jesus to die so that we may have eternal life again. I also thought that God could have simply done away with His creation altogether if He wanted to. So rather than wondering why I didn't get the opportunity Adam and Eve did, I am grateful that God provided a way that we can go back to the perfection He intended from the beginning, because He could have very well done away with His creation on the spot when Adam and Eve sinned. There is nothing better, that greater shows His love for us, than keeping us around after what we did and still do, and providing a way that we can have eternal life again.
You are punished at birth because you are a sinner at birth. Have you ever known anyone, besides Jesus, who was sinless? More so than that, have you ever known a child who was sinless? I'm not talking about accountablility here. I am just talking about sin.
From Mark 10
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
Is he referring to their innocent, "pre fallen like" state? :confused:
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Like all prior posts mention we are sinners and have that weakness regardless of what Adam and Eve did.
You don't even have to believe in the Bible or religion to know that this world is not perfect and never will be. Look at all the suffering and misery.
God is Holy, perfect, good. He cannot be with those that are not - just His nature.
Some may see this just judgement as punishment, but consider...
As Moonlight mentions...
He sends the solution - His love, His Son, Jesus Christ. :D
A truly evil God would let us get what we deserve. :(
Well of course we can each exchange verses that the other will not accept as proof. The bible is one faith, you can not merely dismiss verses you don't agree are clear on Gods ability to hold all mankind as unclean,
This verse obviously is talking about the faith of the child to believe, not any innocent state. It is just a matter that man is sinful, if you don't believe at birth, well shortly as soon as they are aware, since sinful nature of man There is nothing man can do, to clean that sin without Christ,
This differnece is why a portion of the protestant churches do not do infant baptism, and the remainder of the protestant, catholic and orthodox do infant baptism. You will never convince me, and sadly I will not convince you, if that was possible then entire denominations would change.
Fr-
I was not trying to be contrary.
I do appreciate that other Christians have differing views on certain topics or versus and I try to learn from all of this, because not to infrequently I'm not quite sure what the meaning is. Thanks.
Grace and Peace
I agree with Inthebox.
My point is that if we are born in a doomed state of sin punishment then 'innocense of a child' and faith of a child would be a contradictry thing.
You can say The bible is one faith, you can not merely dismiss verses you don't agree are clear on Gods ability to hold all mankind as unclean,
if it is that simple there wouldn't be so many different doctrinal beliefs.
I have to agree with Chuck on this one. We are to come to God as a young child comes to their Father, believing what he says without questioning whether it is true, and without questioning His authority. There is nothing in the passage that says that children are innocent, nor are we told that we have to be innocent - we cannot be. But taking this passage to means the faith of the child is in concert with what scripture says about faith of the OT saints in Hebrews, and I am reminded specifically of the faith of Abraham:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
James 2:23
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV
Too many people come to God saying that they do not believe the Bible because they cannot understand so much - but God asks us to come to Him as a child. You do not have to understand everything, just as you can ride in an aircraft and believe that it can do what the airline claims without understanding everything about how it happens.
The second topic which is not explicitly mentioned, but which is inherently part of your comment is whether children are saved - and that is a different topic all on it's own.
I don't have a big problem with sin, original or otherwise. I understand it as a sense of profound alienation and separation from the source of our truest and highest Self. Living on the material plane makes it hard to avoid such an illusion.
What sticks in my throat is the idea that a loving Father would require the death of an innocent being as a condition of being reconciled to his children. As I see it, the doctrine of sacrificial atonement by the death of an innocent is fundamentally at odds with the doctrine of a loving, forgiving, and merciful Father.
First, keep in mind that God did not require the death of another innocent being. He, and Almighty being, the creator of the universe Himself, He came to earth to take the penalty upon Himself (yes, God Himself was that innocent being who took the penalty) that was required as a result of our disobedience. And He did so while man was in sin and in rebellion against Him. He made the first move, and did so to provide a way that may could be reconciled, when man was ready to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Keep in mind that God is a Holy God and cannot abide sin in His presence. So what does He do about our sin? When we receive Him as Saviour, He covers our sin by imputing His own righteous into us.
Can you imagine a situation where you had committed a serious crime, a murder or robbery, and the person responsible for putting the law and penalty in place, be it President, Prime Minister or Queen came themselves and said - "release him, and I will take the penalty myself in his place"?
There is so much more that I could add, but I cannot imagine a human with so much love - how could anyone say that this is not the act of a loving God?
I'm sorry, Tj, no amount of contortion can make this palatable. Believe me, I tried for years. Where could a required death penalty come from, that God would be powerless to commute it and to forgive whomever He will?
I note that you did not even address the points that I raised. Rather than address the points, you just reject them outright for no stated reason as "contortion". Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Can God forgive sin? Absolutely. But God also said upfront what the price was and to be just, the price must be paid. Then He said that He was prepared to pay that price Himself and would forgive whosoever would receive it. And you accuse Him of not being forgiving? What else is forgiveness than accepting and absorbing the price for a wrong committed against you and then choosing to forget that sin. So He did pay the price for sin, but if I read you right, you don't agree with HOW He chose to forgive the sin. Since He took the full penalty, what does it matter to you?
TJ3 So according to what you are saying that we are born punished in original sin as though we did the sin ourself?
I believe that we are born with the sin of human nature within us but other than that this is how I see 'original sin'
By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".
As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").
No absolutely not. I cannot imagine for a moment how you could think that I was saying that after what I have posted in previous messages on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
We are born with the DESIRE to sin because of the sinful orientation that came due to the corruption of all nature resulting from the Original sin. But we are held responsible for the sins that we commit and only the sins that we commit.
The doctrine of the original sin in scripture DOES NOT say that we are held to account for Adam's sin, but rather that the Original sin corrupted all nature giving us a sin nature (sinful orientation)
I hope that my position on this is now clear!
okay that is a word we agree on but that isn't what I take the Catholics definition of original sin to mean. And that was my point. May not have worded it very well.
Okay. I agree. I believe that the difference between what I read in scripture and the Catholic position is that they do not believe that it is possible to separate out the sin nature from sin. I believe that I am correct in saying that they believe that the sin nature is sin inherited from Adam, in which case your description of what they believe would be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I will still argue that it is not merely a "Catholic" position, while they do also teach it, it is a Chrsitian position, since Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran,
Episcopal and several other churches teaching also.
Why must one call it a "catholic" teaching of original sin, not merely the Christian teaching of original sin. Or the Lutheran teaching of original sin.
I, for one, do not agree that it is the Christian position. There may indeed be some denominations who choose to hold to this position - that is not in dispute, but I do not see it in scripture and have shown verses that explicitly teach against it. That is why I would disagree that it is the Christian position - that and the fact that it is far from being universally accepted by professing Christians. One could certainly call it a position held by certain, or even a number of professing Christian denominations, but that is as far as I believe that we could go on labeling it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
If you ask Christians if they believe in the Doctrine of the Original Sin, I believe that all professing Christians will agree - but as we see here when we get into what we mean by that term, we see that we are far from being in agreement.
Well you didn't answer my question either, so I guess we're even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Not at all. I'm quite sure He forgives whomever He deems worthy, and does it fully, freely and willingly, without any necessity for a gruesome death by anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, I agree completely with how He does it. What I disagree with is the Christian explanation of how He does it. I don't think the "criminal justice" analogy fits the actual situation. Estrangement and separation are consequences of sin, not punishments or penalties for it. Forgiveness is reunion and reconciliation, not some kind of judicial determination. The reason it matters to me is that I think the "atonement" doctrine misrepresents His character and attitude toward human beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Well if the majority of all Christians accept it as their teachings, it would make it Christian, I doubt if you talk to the local Lutheran seminary they would view it as a non christian belief.
It is merely not your denominations teachings, but as for as pure numbers, it is accepted by the largest number of chirsitains as their teachings
I do not have a denomination, nor do I believe that numbers or indeed even denominational teachings establish orthodox Christian beliefs, but rather that is why God gave us the Holy Scriptures (Assuming that anyone could validate that the majority of Christians actually personally hold to this belief).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
If a denominational belief does not align with the Bible, which do you believe should be considered the standard?
Rom 11:4-5
4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
NKJV
When it is millions against the 7000, will it be numbers, or God's word who will decide which side we are on? That day will come:
Luke 18:8
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
NKJV
Actually, I did. Maybe you did not read far enough down.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Let's see what He says:Quote:
Not at all. I'm quite sure He forgives whomever He deems worthy, and does it fully, freely and willingly, without any necessity for a gruesome death by anybody.
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV
Do you believe that you are in a position to judge whether God is right?
Why don't we go to God's word and go by what He says?Quote:
No, I agree completely with how He does it. What I disagree with is the Christian explanation of how He does it.
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