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My friend was saying that god thinks its okay if you have a baby when you are a teenager and that it is "gods will". What is the truth about that because I don't agree! I think that god doesn't want to put a baby into two young peoples lives that aren't even in love or married... give me some info people if you have the knowledge & facts! Thanks! :)
We chose to give in to temptation, but the Christian belief is God will not put more on our shoulders then we can handle We must pay the consequences for our unholy actions.
The fact is that Having Children. God has created Marriage between two people. To unite and create a family together.
Man and a Women leave their parents to unite in marriage witnessed by God, and only through marriage is when it is considered Right, to create a family.
Now before anybody starts nailing me to the cross with this answer. Those are the facts and rules according to the Bible inspired by God.
Teenagers getting pregnant is not God's will. It is a consequence of having sex. We have agency to make choices both good and bad and all will have consequences. Sexual relations should be saved for marriage. It is the act spoken of in the Bible as "becoming one". God will certainly help those who find themselves pregnant and unmarried as he loves us all but it is not his plan.
But doesn't God know everyone's destiny from the day they are born?
If they are married.Quote:
Originally Posted by brookeleigh
You are correct.Quote:
What is the truth about that because I don't agree! I think that god doesn't want to put a baby into two young peoples lives that aren't even in love or married..
Genesis 2 24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.Quote:
.give me some info people if you have the knowledge & facts! Thanks! :)
Ephesians 5 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.
You see, our marital embrace, that is to say, sex between man and wife is holy because it is a symbol of God's love for man. But sex outside of marriage is a sin because it is against God's will.
Sincerely,
Children are a blessing from God, but man has made sex a act of sin also.
If a couple is married, that is how God wants them to have children, outside of that, it is not always within Gods will.
And God would not want to people who are teens and not in love to be having sex.
Yes, but we don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Sincerely,
So you people believe that you can understudy Gods plan, for an individual? WOW! I wonder if God recongizes the union of two people spiritualy, or if it has to be on paper. I wonder if a child is not born of a paper marriage does he get anyf less blessings, from God? What about the parents? Hold on if one believes all sins are equal: what's the defferents between that and any other sin? Did Abraham have a son that was born out of marriage was blessed by God? Maybe I should let God be the judge? Omnipotent and Omniscient- I wonder what those words mean? Yes ,it is ideal to have have two parents in a child's life,but that doesn't guarantee Gods favor or disfavor.
Check your history only up until 60 years ago it was normal to have children in your teen years. I am talking 13-19, and often the man was considerably older then the child or young women. Do think those women were in love(real love ). What is marriage without love. Does a paper make it valid in the eyes of God? A lot of marriages in the bible were arranged, is that love? I think in the bible Gods states over and over again that only "The Omnipotent" knows his true will and plan. i.e.. See what he told Job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I don't know what you mean by "understudy"?Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
However, God has revealed to us His will in this matter.
Me too. God has revealed to us the ordinary means of salvation. Whether there is an extraordinary means He has not revealed.Quote:
I wonder if God recongizes the union of two people spiritualy, or if it has to be on paper.
No. But he gets less blessing from his parents. Since the child's parents are disobedient to God, they will probably teach their child to be disobedient also.Quote:
I wonder if a child is not born of a paper marriage does he get anyf less blessings, from God?
Since they are disobedient to God, they have forsaken the blessings of God.Quote:
What about the parents?
I don't believe all sins are equal. Scripture says:Quote:
Hold on if one believes all sins are equal: what's the defferents between that and any other sin?
1 John 5 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.
Yes.Quote:
Did Abraham have a son that was born out of marriage was blessed by God?
Wise choice. Same choice I made. But I decided to make friends with the Judge.Quote:
Maybe I should let God be the judge?
Omnipotent - All powerfulQuote:
Omnipotent and Omniscient- I wonder what those words mean?
Omniscient - All knowing
That is true. But children with two parents generally feel more favored. Every child that I know of who was raised without a father, misses their father. And every child I know of who was raised without a mother, misses their mother.Quote:
Yes ,it is ideal to have have two parents in a child's life,but that doesn't guarantee Gods favor or disfavor.
Sincerely,
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Correct.Quote:
and often the man was considerably older then the child or young women.
Yes. The custom also entailed a year's courtship.Quote:
Do think those women were in love(real love ).
No. But a ceremony in Church before God and His witnesses does make it valid.Quote:
What is marriage without love. Does a paper make it valid in the eyes of God?
Yes.Quote:
A lot of marriages in the bible were arranged, is that love?
I have no idea what you are talking about. But God has revealed His will for man. So, it doesn't take omnipotence to know His will. The Church can teach you.Quote:
I think in the bible Gods states over and over again that only "The Omnipotent" knows his true will and plan. i.e.. See what he told Job.
Sincerely,
What church are you talking about? The one that has misinterpreted Gods word 1000's of times throughout history? It's no doubt things will be missed if a child is raised by one parent, but that was not the question. 78% of arranged marriages said that they learned to love their mate, they were not in love at the time of marriage. I am shocked to hear you say that teenaged christains that are not married, will not teach their children right.WOW! I know many good single parent christains, and children from those parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
There are many christains that believe that all sins are equal. Are you suggesting that someone that is not married when they have a child is not friends with God? WOW! I consider myself friends with God. I also feel blessed. Did Abraham, David, and Solomon loose Gods favor? They disobeyed, or made many bad decision, in the eyes of man- but remained in Gods favor. Like I sugested we can not understand what's God plan for an individual might intel. Quoting a few paragraphs out of the bible does not explain Gods plan. But I don't want to get into a verse war. I understand why you fell the way you feelQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Replied to both posts here.
Anytime you want to discuss that topic, have a go. Start a new thread however. All I ask is that we take it one supposed error at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
But I was not addressing the question at the point I made that statement. I was addressing the comment thatQuote:
It's no doubt things will be missed if a child is raised by one parent, but that was not the question.
I answered that comment by saying:Quote:
Yes ,it is ideal to have have two parents in a childs life,but that doesn't guarentee Gods favor or disfavor.
That is true. But children with two parents generally feel more favored. Every child that I know of who was raised without a father, misses their father. And every child I know of who was raised without a mother, misses their mother.
I'm pretty sure I addressed your point.
I didn't say they were in love at the time of marriage.. I just said they loved the mate to whom they were married.Quote:
78% of arranged marriages said that they learned to love their mate, they were not in love at the time of marriage.
If they believe it is all right to have sex outside of marriage then they will probably teach their children it is all right to have sex outside of marriage. That is not according to orthodox Christianity.Quote:
I am shocked to hear you say that teenaged christains that are not married, will not teach their children right.WOW! I know many good single parent christains, and children from those parents.
Did I say there weren't?Quote:
There are many christains that believe that all sins are equal.
I'm suggesting that someone who has sex outside of marriage is committing a sin.Quote:
Are you suggesting that someone that is not married when they have a child is not friends with God?
Yes, but they repented and were forgiven.Quote:
WOW! I consider myself friends with God. I also feel blessed. Did Abraham, David, and Solomon loose Gods favor?
2 Kings 12Quote:
They disobeyed, or made many bad decision, in the eyes of man- but remained in Gods favor.
7 And Nathan said to David: Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord the God of Israel: I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee from the hand of Saul, 8 And gave thee thy master's house and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and Juda: and if these things be little, I shall add far greater things unto thee. 9 Why therefore hast thou despised the word of the Lord, to do evil in my sight? Thou hast killed Urias the Hethite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10 Therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Urias the Hethite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord: Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy eyes I and give them to thy neighhour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing in the sight of all Israel, and in the sight of the sun. 13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. 15 And Nathan returned to his house. The Lord also struck the child which the wife of Urias had borne to David, and his life was despaired of.
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Second Book Of Kings Chapter 12
Thanks.Quote:
Like I sugested we can not understand what's God plan for an individual might intel. Quoting a few paragraphs out of the bible does not explain Gods plan. But I don't want to get into a verse war. I understand why you fell the way you feel
Sincerely,
[QUOTE=De Maria]Replied to both posts here.
Anytime you want to discuss that topic, have a go. Start a new thread however. All I ask is that we take it one supposed error at a time.
The earth is the center of our solar system
[QUOTE=clinton mccoy]Are you insinuating that the Church ever had a doctrine that claimed the earth was the center of our solar system?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Please provide the data.
Sincerely,
It is easy to know what is right or wrong, there is a guide book, called the bible, not just picking one verse out of context to make your agreement.
1. sex outside of marriage is wrong
Then there is the social aspect in today's society, teens are not ready and really prepared to have children, since in reality they are still children thierself. It will hurt their abilities to get ahead in life and make their life much harder.
Trying to twist Gods word for you benefit is not changing the truth.
You're both right to an extent. It's true that God doesn't want to put a baby into two young peoples lives that aren't even in love or married. But God in his providence allows certain things to happen that aren't necessarily his will or seemingly in his (or anyone else's) best interests. Now please don't ask me why because I simply don't have an answer to that. God is infinite and divine whilst I am merely mortal and human so it is impossible for me to understand everything that God does. I can speculate to an extent but it would be just that ; speculation. The important thing that I try to remember is that I must conform to God's standards ; I cannot make him conform to mine. So many of us want to do just that ; instead of living our lives truly according to God's will, we try to bend and mold God to fit our standard of what we think God ought to be, rather than accept and live by his laws.
[QUOTE=De Maria]Yes I am saying that the church punished people who went against that theory. I am not saying it is the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Read what happened to Galiano. Come on I know you know the story. Does the doctrine of sainthood come from the bible?
That's the same point I was making.Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
This is just my feeling- Gods knows it is probably not the wisest decssion, so God advises against it. I just don't see the most understanding being taking blessings from teenagers, who are only babies spirirtualy. I agree with what you are saying, though!Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
You are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Do you mean Galileo? He was punished because he said the Bible was wrong. Not because he said that the earth rotated around the sun. Copernicus had made that discovery 100 years earlier and he was a Catholic member of the Jesuit order.Quote:
I am not saying it is the bible. Read what happened to Galiano.
I've never heard of a doctrine of sainthood. Please explain what you mean?Quote:
Come on I know you know the story. Does the doctrine of sainthood come from the bible?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Maybe you are not catholicQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Galileo's support for the heliocentric theory got him into trouble with the Roman Catholic Church. In 1633 the Inquisition convicted him of heresy and forced him to recant (publicly withdraw) his support of Copernicus. They sentenced him to life imprisonment, but because of his advanced age allowed him serve his term under house arrest at his villa in Arcetri outside of Florence. Please excuse my spelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Canonization (also spelled Canonisation) is the act by which a Christian Church declares a deceased person to be a saint, inscribing that person in the canon, or list, of recognized saints.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
In the Catholic Church (but not the Eastern Catholic Churches), the act of canonization is now reserved to the Holy See and occurs at the conclusion of a long process requiring extensive proof that the person proposed for canonization lived, and died, in such a way that he or she is worthy to be recognized as a saint. Originally, however, individuals were recognized as saints without any formal process, as happened, for instance, in the case of Saint Peter and the Blessed Virgin Mary. Other Christian Churches still follow the older practice (see, for instance, below on Eastern Orthodox practice).
Canonization, whether formal or informal, does not make someone a saint: it is only a declaration that the person is a saint and was a saint even before canonization. It is generally recognized that there are many more saints in heaven than have been canonized on earth.[( When you said orthodox christain I thought you you catholic).
It is pointless to try and compare the Church in the 1500 and 1600 to the church today, during many years the church was not only a religious body but also a civil government authority that was contoling a major part of the world. So often church courts of the time had little to do with religion, and more as a control for reasons of government.
The action of church leaders of that time, did not often follow the bible. With that the actions of anyone 500 years ago has little if any bearing on what is right and wrong today
I know that. I made a statement that the church have backed many doctrines based on what the situations of the time. Some of those decisions could not have came from Gods knowlegde, but what man felt was right. I was asked to name one, I did. My point is that the church is capable of making mistakes-it is my belief that the Omnipotent does not. So because we learn something in church doesn't make it 100% right. That was my other point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
You might want to read this article. It was written by a nonCatholic interested in the subject:Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Wil Milan is an astrophotographer based in Arizona.Though he is not a Catholic, he takes great interest in the history of astronomy. Some of his work can be seen on the World Wide Web at (site under reconstruction -- please return at a later date).
TWISTING THE KNIFE (This Rock: November-December 1999)Quote:
Twisting the Knife
How Galileo Brought His Troubles with the Church on Himself
By Wil Milan
If you ask people what Galileo Galilei is famous for, most will say that he invented the telescope, used it to prove the earth goes around the sun, and that the Catholic Church condemned him for his discoveries. That much is common knowledge, no?
In fact, none of those things is true...
Sincerely,
De Maria
There were men in the church that supported him, yes I know that, but not the church as an institution. We are talking about the institution.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I like chatting with you.
According to the two articles you have advised me to read your point of view seems to be right. I can admit that. But there are 150 articles that will say you are wrong. Is the majority always right we know that is not always true. But what can we go by for now. God does not make them mistakes man does. My point, we can put too much faith in institutional beliefs, instead of trying to understand God on a personal level. Many believe that we can not understand without the institution. I have a different understanding, as you can probably tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Thanks. I admire that.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Agree.Quote:
But there are 150 articles that will say you are wrong. Is the majority always right we know that is not always true.
As I understand the purpose of the Institution which we are speaking of, the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ put her on this earth in order to help us understand God on a personal level.Quote:
But what can we go by for now. God does not make them mistakes man does. My point, we can put too much faith in institutional beliefs, instead of trying to understand God on a personal level.
Yes.Quote:
Many believe that we can not understand without the institution. I have a different understanding, as you can probably tell.
Thanks for sharing your views.
Sincerely,
De Maria
He allows free choice. What He has planned for us and what we choose may not be the same. If we choose in line with His will for us then we get the blessings He has prepared. If our choices are not in line with His will, then He holds back the gifts He wanted to give. Premarital sex is definitely not in His will.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Ah, this is one of those questions that can never be answered as none of us can stand up and say 'This is what God wants!'
Without being rude I think it is arrogant to stand up and say you know what God is thinking.
A lot of the problems in the world come from people arguing and going to war over what they claim God said and wants them to do.
Follow your own conscience and spiritual path.
Any sin is against Gods will. So can anyone gain Gods favor and keep it? I do not think God takes his blessing from us. I think it is us who turns our back On God. Will God not bless you if you have a child out of wedlock I do not think so. Will he let you see the consequences of your action, more than likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
I like your answer, and I agree, but it is fun to hear people trying!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieman
^^^ GREAT ANSWER!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieman
There were many prime examples in the Bible, favored men of God, whom of which had relations outside of their marriage (s), had relations prior to marriage, had children out of wedlock, etc. and they were not punished by God nor society at the time.
The church and society have since demonized sexual relations.
When someone, anyone, suggests the church can teach you I call BULL! The BIBLE and ONLY the Bible can teach you. If you ask questions of man (human) you are likely to get opinion and their understanding. As we know humans are fallible thus their opinions and understandings are subject to being incorrect.
Your best course of action is to read EVERY word of the Bible from cover to cover, in order, without missing one word and to do this over and over again in order to gain understanding of the whole, rather than looking to one or two scriptures without considering their context to gain perspective as that can only lead you further astray.
(apologies for the run-on sentence... )
Best wishes.
Actually sex outside of marriage has long been wrong to society and has always been against Gods rules. It is often that they were punished by God in various ways, perhaps not lighting from heaven but for sure they lost favor in many ways, It is often their turning from their sin and asking forgiveness that got them back in God's grace.
And yes it is very easy to know and find God's will, it is called the Bible, it elss us what God wants and what is right and wrong in our life.
And yes the church can teach you, it does so by helping you understand the bible, since one has to know the customs and traditions of the varoius times to fully understand, And since most people do not know greek or hewbrew they need skilled and trained people to help them understand many thinga.
Using a Greek and Hebrew concordance will more than likely give you different view of what the bible says, than the standard church version. Most churches understand this, so they tell you don't read anything but the bible for info. About God. I believe that if it is the truth no matter where you look it will remain the truth. Truth does not mind investigation a lie does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Chuck,
While I respect your opinions, I obviously do not agree with them and as a human it is my right - just as it is yours to disagree with me.
I cannot, nor can you, guarantee that any church will teach the word of God as it is supposed to be taught because those teachings are coming from fallible men/women. Whereas, if you take the time to learn the Bible (God's word) as a whole by reading it for yourself, you are taking lessons from the Creator Himself regardless of what language the book is in as it was divinely inspired.
And for the record, men were not punished for producing with their slaves nor were they expected to repent for such. It was accepted practice.
I agree with you 90%. The other 10% is that I do not believe every word in the bible to be true, because man has played apart in its making. For example some christain bibles have 73 books and some have 64. If it was Gods word it would probably remain consistent even with the passage of time. Now I believe that the moral concepts of the bible are constant.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstkay76
This is true but then 99 pecent of the populatoin is not going to look up greek or hewbrew texts, or books to translate, They are not going to read a dozen of books on the customs at various times of bible hisotry, esp those on the NEW TESTEMENT times, so they understand about the planting, even turning the other cheek that is so often misunderstood.
They try to view things under today's standards or view points of words.
But yes every denomination has some points where man has issues in it,
And the bible is not one book, but a collection, the differene is the protestant and catholic, and the inclusion of the additional books that are between the old and new testment, Even the protestant religions accept the other books as valid just not to the level of the other scripture.
And of course they contain little that would have any profound help in christianity and mans understnading of God's word.
You and I have started this conversation on another thread. Let us continue there. I think a few of use are taking away from the original question. If you don't think so we can continue here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
God is interested in all.
2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The 8000 are now present with the Lord, whether that is good or bad depends on how they spent their life.
Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
The Scriptures record that frequently man did not obey God.
It is because the Will of God is disregarded that the situation occurred in the first place. However, it is the parents obligation to pass on their faith.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I see no one has mentioned that man has been given free will. This is given to him by God. Now I don't want to judge God :), but surely He knew what he was doing when He gave us free will. It is there to be exercised and which path you choose at any second of your day determines where you go and how you will live. This is the beauty of life.
You did not read all post. It is not spelled out, but I am sure the point has been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieman
I was responding to the previous post about God's will and part of God's will is that he gave us choice and the ability to choose. This is what makes us human, part of His creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton mccoy
Ok I misunderstood, sorry. I do that sometimes:=)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieman
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