Hey Guys!
I was wondering about how you thought about prayers in school. This topic is very important to me, and I would love some other's opinions on it! Please, everyone, reply with your thoughts!
Thanks so much!
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Hey Guys!
I was wondering about how you thought about prayers in school. This topic is very important to me, and I would love some other's opinions on it! Please, everyone, reply with your thoughts!
Thanks so much!
Christian prayer is OK.. in a christian school.
Why do you think so?
People can celebrate their religion in schools that are devoted to followers of that religion. Public schools are for everyone, all races and religions, so it isn't right to select one religion to celebrate when you know that the atudents are from either several differnets religions or practice no religion.
What do YOU think?
.. I think that all religions are welcome in public schools, because they should be able to have a voice and be heard. This is america, and its what its about.
If students who don't believe in christianity don't like the fact that there is prayer, then they don't HAVE to pray with them. They can ignore it.
Actually you're wrong on all counts there but this debate has been done to death. Read more here: The Case Against School Prayer
I personally vote for the "moment of silence." Those who wish to pray (silently, and in accordance with their own faith) may, and those that don't----well, a "moment" isn't TOO long to be quiet and respect others.
Well, thanks. I wanted opinions, and that includes opposing ones. I would like some thoughts on prayer and why it should be allowed...
I can play both sides of this one, but since you asked for reasons it should be allowed...Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyH
1. The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment. All one has to do is read the Federalist Papers (assuming one has read the Constitution) to get a very good feel for that oft-debated "Founders' Intent." It seems to me to be rather clear that the founders were absolutely dead-set against the central government (the feds) mandating any specific religion/denomination. I do NOT see public schools allowing prayer as being an endorsement by the central government of any specific religion. If anything, it's only an endorsement by that school, or that principal, or that teacher.
2. Freedom of expression/speech. If I want to pray before I start my classes, who's to say I can't? In fact, by saying I can't, isn't that a very real breach of my freedom of religion as well as my freedom of speech?
Really, though, I don't get that hung up on this issue. The way I see it, my God doesn't need Washington's approval to exist. He doesn't need for the Department of Education, the various state boards of education, the superintendents, the principals, the teachers, or the PTA to acknowledge Him for Him to exist. He's big enough that if they want to kick Him out, they can--but as soon as one child or teacher calls on Him (silently or aloud), He will be there.
I personally worry a whole lot more about those who are trying to force religion out of schools than those of us who practice our faith. Like the song says, "My judge will judge us all one day," and I fear for those people at that time.
"Praying in school is not against the law. In fact, the U.S. Constitution guarantees students the right to pray in public schools; it is a protected form of free speech. A student can pray on the school bus, in the corridors, in the cafeteria, in their student-run Bible club, at the flagpole, sports stadium, and elsewhere on school grounds. They can even pray silently before and after class in the classroom. They are not allowed to pray solely Christian prayers as an organized part of the school schedule. However, they may be able to hear or read prayers from a variety of religious traditions and inspiring statements from secular sources. Prayers cannot solely be from a single religious faith group."
Bold added by me. Read more here: How to have prayers in public schools -- legally
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
You're right, of course.
Like I said, I can play both sides of the card on this one.
I, for one, prefer student-led activities/organizations. That way, I know the students' hearts are in it, and they're not being coerced by parents/teachers/whoever.
Do you guys think that by having prayer taken out of schools... much would be affected? Other than the hysterics who would go off the wall. Do you think that the school itself would go through much change, if any?
I don't think much would happen at all. We don't have school prayer here in Canada and all is well.
No, not really.
How much religious education is in public school as it is? Pretty much zero, unless you count the percentage of schools (not many) who teach a segment of "comparitive religion," in which they outline the tenets of the three biggies, and toss in a smattering of Buddhism and Hinduism.
No, for the most part, the schools would roll on just as they have been, which ain't all that great. (Being a public school teacher, I figure I can get away with that last)
I'd have no problem with prayers in school if EVERY time there was a prayer, it was taken from a DIFFERENT religious background.
Monday, Christianity. Tuesday, Buddhism. Wednesday, Hinduism. Thursday, Islam. Friday, Judaism.
Monday, Paganism. Tuesday, Satanism. Wednesday, the Roman Pantheon. Thursday, the Norse pantheon. Friday, the Celtic pantheon.
Monday, ancestor worship--are you getting the idea here?
I think that if Christians were allowed to be represented about once every 3-4 weeks, they'd be MUCH less likely to want prayer in school.
I have always stood by the statement that if you want your kids to pray in school, send them to a parochial school.
Students who wish to pray on their own during school hours, as long as it does not interrupt class time is fine. In other words, praying before you eat lunch, or taking a moment in the hall to pray before a big test, no big deal. As long as it is not led by a teacher or administrator, there's nothing wrong with it, and it should not be prohibited. The problem I see with having a moment of silence is that it still indicates the endorsement of religion. Not a particular religion, but religion in general, and we all know public schools should not be endorsing religion of any type. Also, what time do you choose for this moment of silence? Is it to take place at the start of the day? The end? What about the Muslim kids who then can't pray at their designated times? Then there's the inevitable conflicts kids are going to have - "YOU didn't pray" "What god did you pray to?" "You pray differently than me" and so on. I used to work in a daycare where there was one Jewish girl who would pray in Hebrew before snack time. The other kids would make fun of her because she wasn't speaking in English, and one girl actually came up to me and said, "Sally is weird, she's Jewish. She doesn't believe in god like you and me, that's why she prays like that." Do we really need that being introduced to public schools as a result of a moment of silence?
I personally think organized prayer or moments of silence have no place in public schools. Our kids need as much time learning as they can without things like prayer and conflicts over what god who prayed to or didn't pray to (which you know would happen) interrupting things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Woa, that's an idea I would have never thought of. That's a really great thought, but too bad not many schools would be too excited on participating in that. Could you imagine the outraged parents? Which would, I guess, show how close-minded people are. It would be a good oppurtunity to teach the kids about religious differences and such though. Thanks so much for your reply.
I don't necessarily think people are close minded simply because they would protest the prayer of all the religions on different days. There is a difference in learning about other religions and actually participating in that religious belief/worship. Even as Christian I agree with prayer being taken out of school as a set time. The reason I am okay with it is for two reasons, 1- What if instead of Chrsitian prayer they were praying another religious prayer. I too would want prayer taken out. Secondly, our children can still pray in school if they want to, no matter the religion. That freedom has not been taken away. It is just the set time and involvement of all that has been. Which is fine because individually we can still pray in whatever religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyH
What I wish hadn't been done away with is religion elective classes. In high school we were required to have so many elective courses. There were many to choose from which allowed you to choose those classes you were interested in. I don't think having a class that teaches different religions is a bad thing. Matter of fact it is a wonderful opportunity. And best of all it is elective. No one has to take it if they don't want to. I wish that were still available for children. And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be. It does no violate any rights. Churches usually only teach their religion and denominational beliefs therefore learning about different religions from church is out. So our children must learn either through parents, there own studies or they will have to wait for college. And you know that people don't usually take theology college courses unless they plan to get a degree in theology. Therefore a great opportunity for children was eliminated when they took religion class out of schools as well.
I agree with all the reasons here for not having prayer in school... well, not a "scheduled" time. Time should not be taken out of academic time to pray. If they want to pray, they can do it at times already mentioned above... like lunch, before class begins, recess, etc.
If prayer in school is so important, then those children should go to a school devoted to that religious belief... like a christian school, a jewish school... etc.
Moon, I just have to say I agree with you about offering an elective to students on the major religions of the world. I think it would be so helpful for students to learn about the diversity of religions, and the class could easily be taught without focus on a particular religion, or being taught like a sermon. If the origins and influences of the major religions of the world are taught, basic beliefs, etc, it could really promote tolerance in this country. Think of all the misconceptions about Islam, for example, and how quickly those stereotypes could be taken care of.
Savage,
It's elective. That's the beauty of it. The class would be about, like jillian said, the basics of religions. Because there are so many different religions it wouldn't leave time for the teacher to lean on their preferred religion. Which I know is not a guarantee, but I would think it could be done without prejudice or favoritism. But I don't think it will happen. Taking religion out period became ugly by both sides, it caused upheaval and now that it is over I don't think anyone (government officials) will be willing to go through it again just to put one controversial class back into all public schools.
Does anyone know if keeping a religion elective in schools was considered during this whole ordeal, or was it more of a "okay this is causing too much trouble and upheaval, let's just take religion out completely"?
Needkarma is right. Teachers and schools wrongfully suspend students for praying and wearing crosses and so forth. The ACLJ will fight for the students in court. They are allowed to have Christian social clubs BEFORE OR AFTER school N0T DURING school.
ACLJ • American Center for Law & Justice
Yeah, I actually had a friend who was suspended for coming up to a girl and saying, "Jesus loves you."
Does a simple saying like this really make that big of a deal?
Suspended for that is a bit much, unless there was a previous history. What possesses someone to blurt that out of the blue? I don't know of any other religion where one would go up to people and say "Mohmmed loves you" or "The Flying Spagetti Monster loves you." etc.
Who cares if what it is. Why can anyone make any statement they want. I guess this country has freedom of speech unless you are Christian. That doesn't surprise me, it is the spirit of the anti-christ in operationQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Actually swearing and using vulgar speech can and does get a student suspended - it just doesn't make the news. The student in question, however, should not have been suspended for simply saying such a thing, unless, as NK mentioned, there was a previous history of this student harassing the other student or something. In other words, if there was tension between the two students, and "Jesus loves you" was said as a method of provoking, harassing or picking on the student, suspension could be a reasonable punishment. Unless we see the news story, however, there's no way to say for sure.Quote:
N0help4u agrees: exactly! You can swear and talk vulgar that is acceptable Jesus love N0 Way! Insanity!
EDIT: Sorry, I just realized this wasn't a news story, but a personal account. There's no way to know for sure unless we know both sides of the story.
I think there's more to the story than someone saying "Jesus loves you"
Seriously... not being Christian, it's annoying that Christians constantly push their religious agenda everywhere, but someone saying just that one line would make me shake my head and walk away.
HOWEVER--if she had said it before and said it to me every day, after being asked to stop--that's harassment, and that's generally something that gets ONE warning before punishment is meted out.
From online dictionary - "5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer".Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyH
As such, a "religious observance" is not necessary for all to observe, but for the person praying this can be a "private" observance that will not broadcast any specific religious demonstrations.
No institution can deny this type of prayer.
Mkay, so what happened with the whole "jesus loves you" thing that involved my friend, it went like this.
There was some girl that my friend passed every day in the hallway, and so they started talking a bit, you know, not like best friends or anything, just like aquaintences (sp?). And this girl always seemed sad and stuff, so one day, when this girl looked like she was almost in tears, my friend just said, "dont worry, jesus loves you." and yeah. I don't know if the girl was offended and told the principal, or another student over heard and they told or what, my friend was just called to the office and was suspended. And soooo... yeah.
That was basically the history behind it, and there was definitely no harassment involved.
In my opinion that doesn't deserve a suspension.
I don't think it deserves a suspension either--but neither do I believe that that 5 year old little boy should have gotten suspended for kissing a girl in the coat hall.
Some schools go overboard with enforcing things, others hardly enforce anything.
The name Jesus will always be contreversial. It seems to make people mad or uncomfortable. People can say God, Buddha, muhamed, dhali Lama and no one cares. But the moment you Say the name of Jesus people take offense and attacks fly. This is because of the spirit of the anti christ that the Bible warns us about. Its is even more intense now, the devil is working over time now because his time is running out. Jesus was hated and his followers are too. We just have accept the price we pay for being followers of Christ.
Sounds like a cult the way you describe it.
Soldout,
I see you are new here, you may want to get familiar with the rules surrounding the commenting feature on this site:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedba...ure-24951.html
Don't forget the kid who was suspended for using a chicken finger as a "gun" during lunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Student suspended for chicken finger gun
But I agree, from the sounds of the story, the student should not have been suspended. It would be interesting to hear the principal explain him/her self.
HeyyQuote:
Originally Posted by kellyH
My opinion is that praying should be done in schools. However if there is a child of a different belief they shouldn't have to pray with the other children.
In order to answer the question adequately, we must consider that "prayers in school" have several manifestations:Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyH
In a Public School:
1. Should prayers in school be organized by officials of the school, such as the principal or the teachers?
Only if the composition of the students is considered first and it is permitted by the students' parents.
Why? Because Public School will have many religions represented by its students and some may be offended.
2. Should prayers in school by students, either organized or impromptu, be forbidden by the government, the school officials or the teachers?
a. No. This is a free country which recognizes the existence of God. In forbidding the establishment of a national religion, the Constitution did not declare that this was an atheist country. We can look at our coins which say, "In God We Trust" and at the Declaration of Independence, "endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights", and see that this Government is not atheist.
In addition, an atheistic belief system is as much forbidden by the separation of Church and State as any other religion.
b. Prayer should also not be forbidden because it is simply an expression of faith. It is also protected by freedom of speech.
3. Should prayer in School by officials such as principals and teachers be forbidden.
No. Our faith is an integral part of our being. If a person is not permitted to pray or to speak of God, this is a curtailment of our freedom of Speech which is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Private Schools are another matter:
It is a contract with a private person and one must observe the rules by which he agreed to abide.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sorry deMaria, you are wrong on many counts. Best to read this first:
School Prayer - The Issue
THE RULING
You can read more here too: Prayer In Public School (Precedents):Quote:
http://www.itvs.org/schoolprayer/ima...sue7_quote.gif
"The Bill of Rights was created to protect the minority from tyranny of the majority," said Judge Biggers, responding to the school's argument that the prayers should continue because a majority of students and parents are in favor of the practice. "To say that the majority should prevail simply because of its numbers is to forget the purpose of the Bill of Rights."
The plaintiff in the case, Lisa Herdahl, was insistent that: "Parents and kids should be able to decide for themselves if they want to go to Sunday school, or what church or synagogue they want to attend. They shouldn't have to battle that out in court." Herdahl brought suit in December 1994 after school officials at the North Pontotoc Attendance Center refused her request to discontinue the religious practices. When news of her request got out, she and her five school children, ages 5 to 15, were harassed and ostracized.
Quote:
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer.
Wow! I diddn't know this was a debate forum, but that is wonderful!
Perhaps, but you didn't address any of them. Or if you addressed my first point, you confirmed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
You might take your own advise and read my message again. Your reference is concerned with prayer organized by School officials and I said:Quote:
Best to read this first:
Therefore, my statement substantially agrees with your reference because if the parents of the students agreee with the program, there is no tyranny.Quote:
1. Should prayers in school be organized by officials of the school, such as the principal or the teachers?
Only if the composition of the students is considered first and it is permitted by the students' parents.
Why? Because Public School will have many religions represented by its students and some may be offended.
On the other hand, the tyranny of the minority needs to be addressed. Why must the majority be denied a God given right simply because a minority does not agree with it?
I've read enough on the issue and my mind is made up. If you are trying to persuade me to your side of the argument, you'll have to provide your own arguments.Quote:
Sincerely,
De Maria
Wait wait wait... "God given right"?
YOUR god has rights in His church.
MINE has rights in my Circle
NEITHER has rights in a public school.
If you want your kids to pray in school, send 'em to a private school. My tax dollars pay for education, not morality. Teach morals at home, please.
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