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I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?
Nope, if you can't see the facts by looking at God's creation, there is no hope for you.
I agree with the first implication: The Universe, our Earth and even a simple plant seem designed to me. I think it is perfectly logical to see intelligent design in the complexities that we live amongst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I cannot agree with the 2nd part. No one is without the possibility (aka hope) of seeing this reality.
Worthbeads,Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
As you have said you are a person of reason and hard facts,
What have you come up with in explanation for the whole universe running like clockwork?
And in the universe I include every living thing that exists, the known and the unknown to us,in water,in oceans,in the land,in the air.
I also would like a scientific explanation for the fact that earth is protected by layers of atmosphere.
The earths core is molten lava and yet unless a volcanic eruption occurrs we are relatively safe from the heat of the core.
Each flower that exists is pollinated at different times,by different methods,by different mediums that already exist on earth, how do you give an explanation to how perfectly this is carried out?
I am not asking to start an argument or to provoke you.
These are just some questions for you to ponder as you think about choosing to believe or not.
At least you have not discarded one for the other withour a thought, you wish to know and you wish to believe, but with proof (maybe to ease yourself,or to explain to others why you believe)
Believing in the Almighty does not mean that you have to give up reason and facts.It just means that reason and proof will lead you to the Almighty if you really look,learn and use your intelligence.:)
Here is a link to Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God. Check it out, I think it's a good read.
Apologetics.com: Challenging Believers to Think and Thinkers to Believe
Worth, just for my own curiosity, why do you "want to believe in God"?
To me that seems like an absurd thing to say.
All of those things can be explained with Science.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
I want to believe in God and a heaven so my soul will live on.
That doesn't make sense to me worth, if your soul is going to live on, it will live on regardless of your belief, similarly if souls do not live on, they will do so regardless of your belief.
Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.
Ok well think of god like this: whenever you feel the wind blowing it's there. You know it is and you believe that it is even though you can't see it, it's pretty much the same thing about god. I suggest you get a New King James Version Bible. Read some of and if you don't understand it then go to a person who does have one. If anyone tells you that its just a stupid book they're wrong and everything that happens and will happen is true no matter what. So please take my advice I wouldn't steer you to the wronge path!Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
If you're worried about burning in hell for eternity because of your current lack of faith, then fix it. "Find" your faith. Accept Jesus into your heart as your personal savior, repent, have a personal relationship with god, go to church, pray, read the bible, teach others the bible - immerse yourself. Then you can be "saved".Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
If that sounds like too much work (or a load of hooey), carry on being a heathen and don't worry about where your soul is going for eternity because you don't have one anyway.
Oh, for the first option you also have to hope that you picked the "right" religion... because if not, well, off to hell for you!
That seems a bit weird to me, why would you get sent to heaven if the only reason for believing was to avoid hell?
You have to study and figure out the great questions of existence for yourself! :)
There are a huge number of books available to you regarding spirituality, god and the meaning of life. IT IS A LIFETIME STUDY. Not intense, but relaxed when study is needed. Never forget that you need to **live** in order to have subject matter to think about in relation to the great questions! It is not for everyone, for some, prepackaged answers-called religion suit them.
There is no proof that there is a supernatural inhabited by entities like devils, gods, imps, and so on. Belief in a supernatural is called **faith** because there is no proof whatsoever. People are called believers; they have faith and derive a lot of comfort from their beliefs.
So, go out and live and learn!
Love Life!
Worthbeads,Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
How can you separate the Almighty and science.Science just explains(tries to explain) the Almighty's creations, which does not mean that Almighty is out of the picture whenever science comes into it.
I cannot separate one from the other.
For me science sheds light on the creations and highlights the Creators work, so that we could understand the complexity of our existence yet the simpleness of our being!
Something's cannot be fully explained by science as the human knowledge is somewhat limited.
Science cannot explain death, death certificates mention the reason of death under normal circumstances as heart failure,but they cannot explain what happens after death.
Science can explain the process of reproduction,but the miracle is that one tiny cell contains all the information needed to become a fully grown human, living and growing inside the mother till birth.
For me Faith and belief is understanding science to know the Creator and to believe in His handiwork and my soul finds the path to peace.:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
Torture wasn't what Adam was told would happen to him if he sinned. Death, the condition he had been in prior to being created was what would happen to him.
Genesis 2: 16
16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
NWT
If indeed torture was to be administered for whatever twisted reason, because I can't conceive of any other reason to torture someone for all eternity except a twisted one, then Adam would have been told so that he could make an INFORMED choice.
Torture is considered a cruel, inhumane, and degrading punishment and is outlawed by the United Nations. Those are the moral standards that all civilized creatures are expected to follow. Entities or creatures or humans who can reason and employ torture as punishment are considered barbarians and are liable to receive judicial retribution. THAT ALONE SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO CONVINCE US THAT THE HELLFIRE INTERPRETATION IS THE WRONG ONE. But unfortunately it is still alive and thriving and poses an insult to the very holy character of God. Which, of course, is what its author designed it for.
Excerpt:
Torture is a serious violation of human rights and is strictly prohibited by international law. As the use of torture strikes at the very heart of civil and political freedoms, it was one of the first issues dealt with by the United Nations (UN) in its development of human rights standards.
Human Rights Learning Centre: Study Guide on Torture, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment
Last time I checked God was not a member of the UN and most likely cares little what the UN decides.
Mans ideas are just that, and in the end, what God says and does is right because it is his will and judgement. And it does not matter what man wants. And of course non beleivers will always say that hell is wrong because they can not admitor accept that is their fate.
Why is there religion? Do most people want just to be a better person, or do they want to go to heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
The way I see it, it looks like science contradicts religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Worth, perhaps you should be agnostic. :)
Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You seem to have big doubts about religion, and you've posted this question in the Christianity forum, so I'm guessing you are thinking, "Christian or not?" There are a lot of other religions in this world, and perhaps there is one out there which suits you. Perhaps you are suited to having no religion. Christianity seems to not be it, so why not investigate other religions and see if something "fits"? Or invent your own religion. Or live your life the way you think is most moral and proper and don't worry about it. Religion (organized or otherwise) isn't for everyone. There's no law that says you MUST have a religion, so sit back and don't worry about it so much. You'll figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
So you know my fate based on the fact that I don't believe in a God who punishes via torture? Then you are he?
About UN membership, it isn't required for anyone to agree with its ethical principles. That God doesn't care is simply your opinion which goes 100% contrary to the Bible.
God is not a mysterious entity which keeps his personaity, moral standards, future plans,
And expectations of himself and his creatures a secret as you imply. Neither are his moral statutes beyond our comprehension nor his mental processs so alien to ours that we can
Expect anything and everything from the Him.
Actually, that's why he provided us with the Bible, so that there could be an understanding between us and our creator. So if he indeed appears capable of anything because he appears mysterious and beyond comprehension, it isn't because he hasn't revealed himself as otherwise.
BTW
The reason I replied to the questioner in the manner I did was not because I am seeking debate. It is simply because I feel that he deserves to be told the TRUTH about who God is an from my viewpoint and that of millions of other Christians who don't accept everything which the CC says as sacrosanct, Jehovah God isn't that kind of God..
Actually, the more I think about it, my problem isn't about God, but just religion itself. There are so many religions but only one can be right. What will happen to the people who worship the wrong God? If a person is a good person but picks the wrong religion will they still go to heaven?
Another thing that confuses me is the Christian Bible. To me, some of the things seem far-fetched. An elderly man building an ark while the whole earth floods? Water turning into blood or wine? It all sounds a little crazy to me. How do you even know this even happened?
Does thinking this make me a sinner in God's eyes?
Worth, even us Christians have issues with religion. If there is a God (and I believe there is) and you want to know Him, He will most certainly introduce Himself. Look around you at the miracle (not the cold hard science) of life. Science can explain cells, DNA and such, but I don't believe it can explain the capacity to reason, love, hate or forgive.Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
Again, if there is a God (and I believe there is), then I think He's big enough to flood the earth and help an old man build a boat. If He can create water He can certainly turn that water into wine.Quote:
Another thing that confuses me is the Christian Bible. To me, some of the things seem far-fetched. An elderly man building an ark while the whole earth floods? Water turning into blood or wine? It all sounds a little crazy to me. How do you even know this even happened?
Nope, everyone questions things. Simply put, what makes you a sinner is doing that which you know to be wrong, or not doing what you know to be right. The fact that you appear to be wrestling with your conscience over this suggests you know there is a God, you're just not sure what to do about. You got to believe my friend, you got to believe.Quote:
Does thinking this make me a sinner in God's eyes?
Plenty of people don't take the bible as a literal interpretation. You can look at the bible as a book of stories, not facts. Look at it as symbolism, instead of cold hard truth.
Mine doesn't!Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
But sure as speechless explained science is not much help when it comes to emotions except maybe abstract sciences like psychology.. :)
Evolutionary biology explains emotions very well.
Then explain it for me, Cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
There have been many examples of children automatically having knowledge of God without having been taught and they just seem to believe without question. But unless you saw this with your own eyes with your own child it is no easier to believe in than God is. The only true way of knowing God is to feel his presence in your heart. Once you have felt the overpowering feeling and love you will believe. The problem is how will you get the opportunity to feel this if you do not study religions, go to church, or at least fall on on your knees with some expectation of an answer and pray in earnest for guidance. Obviously, the fact that you would even consider there is a God when you are so logical seems to be proof in itself that there is a nagging little part of yourself that believes already. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should have missionaries in your area that can teach you how to pray with a purpose, and answer may of your questions without being pushy. Couldn't hurt to give them a call.Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
Well lets take love, love confers a specific bonding between 2 organisms. That bonding is between 2 organisms who either are related or will mate to produce offspring which is then reared by the both of them. Love is very well explained by the evolution of a behavior to protect one's own genes. You also fall in love with people who are genetically superior or well matched to you, which can be found through visual, chemical and behavioural cues. This produces stronger children and ensures the survival of your own genes.
Hate is similar, it is an emotion formed on a subconscious level towards something which is a threat to your genes. It makes it so that when that threat presents itself you can very quickly get fired up in order to combat that threat.
These emotions are very dumbed down in modern human culture, but to me it is plain that these gave an advantage to our ancestors and so would have evolved.
Thanks for the info, I agree that emotions begin at a chemical level of our bodies,Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
But as I am not a fan of human evolution theory... :)
Cap, pardon me while I chuckle just a little bit. Here, try this wiki entry, it's just as humorous:Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Whatever, leave it to science to reduce human beings to paleocircuits and "neural platforms for bodily expression." How did we evolve into who would be skilled in singing, playing the guitar, writing music or poetry? How did I get the singing gene but not the songwriting gene? Seriously, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?Quote:
For example, the human emotion of love Is proposed to have evolved from paleocircuits of the mammalian brain (specifically, modules of the cingulated gyrus) designed for the care, feeding, and grooming of offspring. Paleocircuits are neural platforms for bodily expression configured millions of years before the advent of cortical circuits for speech. They consist of pre-configured pathways or networks of nerve cells in the forebrain, brain stem and spinal cord. They evolved prior to the earliest mammalian ancestors, as far back as the jawless fishes, to control motor function.
Presumably, before the mammalian brain, life in the non-verbal world was automatic, preconscious, and predictable. The motor centers of reptiles react to sensory cues of vision, sound, touch, chemical, gravity, and motion with pre-set body movements and programmed postures. With the arrival of night-active mammals, circa 180 million years ago, smell replaced vision as the dominant sense, and a different way of responding arose from the olfactory sense, which is proposed to have developed into mammalian emotion and emotional memory. In the Jurassic Period, the mammalian brain invested heavily in olfaction to succeed at night as reptiles slept — one explanation for why olfactory lobes in mammalian brains are proportionally larger than in the reptiles. These odor pathways gradually formed the neural blueprint for what was later to become our limbic brain.
Because science doesn't think man is the most spectacular thing in the universe. Sure, we're pretty cool, but there are a lot of "pretty cool" things out there. That, and science shows emotions and feelings and people are made up of chemical processes and electrical pulses. I don't get why "intelligent design" seeks to make humans out to be so fantastic. I don't see what is so "intelligent" about our design; we get old, our organs fail, we have birth defects, personality disorders, etc. And the earth? How much of our earth is covered by water we can't drink? Seems to me an "intelligent" creator would have made water a more abundant resource, or made us able to consume fresh and salt water. And what about the creation of Irukandji jellyfish? The thing is 2.5cm in diameter and can kill you. What's "intelligent" about that? But whatever. I think we're getting off topic. :)Quote:
Seriously, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?
Thanks for the greenie, firm. My point is that many people who tout the "intelligent design" theory will go on and on about how there is perfection in things, when it simply isn't so. And when you point to something that doesn't make sense for the "intelligence" of its design, you get a response like, "Well, god wanted it that way, so he designed it that way" It's never a question of WHY does this thing function as it does, or what purpose does it serve, or what in evolution caused it to be this way - it's always "god did it". Sorry, not god, the "intelligent designer". I still say there's nothing intelligent about human bodies failing at early ages and most of the earth's surface being covered with a substance we can't consume.Quote:
firmbeliever agrees: Agree to disagree,each individual organism has its function in nature even if we are not aware of it!
Damn! Off topic again! My fault, sorry...
Glad you liked the greenie.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I know its off topic, but we are trying to show Worth that there exists a Creator of all that exists on this universe.
When you really look closely at the creations of the Creator,
The earth(soil) was formed in many years by layers of different substances-some of these substances are coal,diamonds,other carbon products,oil,etc.Who uses all these substances?
Each organism in the sea,are food for each other,cleaners of coral,helps in the growth of certain organisms,even after death the bones of these organisms disintergrate into something that either changes into some product useful for the humans.
Even the tiny organisms that live on our skin and stomachs they too have their function of cleaning up or breaking down etc
Do you see Intelligent design now?
Humans as I believe are sent to earth by the Creator and that everything that naturally on this earth when used well are for the benefit of humans.
I could quote some verses from the Quran in regard to this topic but then we are not discussing Islam here...
I'm not saying I don't see how tiny particles relate to bigger particles to make a functioning being or to serve a purpose. I'm just saying I don't think a magic man in the sky put it all here. As I said, many ID theorists argue that there is "perfection" in the design of things, and there's not. There's no such thing as "perfect". And if everything used properly is designed to serve humans, it stands to reason humans should be perfect (if not in behavior at least in design) and we aren't. That's why (well one reason why) for me intelligent design doesn't add up. There are too many faults in the "design" of things that make no sense as to why an "intelligent" being put them there. And again, that goes back to "the designer did it because the designer knows what he's doing" and I don'y buy that line of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
As for me I believe that Humans are here for a short time and the Creator is not human nor like any of his created beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
All things on this earth are for humans(to use,to study and to ponder about) and no, I do not believe humans are perfect,far from it, that's why He (the Creator ) is Most Merciful when it comes to those who asks for forgiveness.
I believe in the Almighty,but I also read,learn and believe in science.As I keep saying believing in one does not mean the other has to be thrown away.
God exists and He cannot be weighed or measured in any scientific measurement,He cannot be cut into pieces and looked into under a microscope,He cannot be put into a petri dish and stored in a freezer or have chemicals added to see any changes.
BUT the things that exist in the earth and sometimes beyond can be scientifically studied, which I believe will ultimately lead to the existence of a Creator.
This is just me,my belief and my faith speaking, which may not be what others see or believe.:)
You guys talking about intelligent design vs>. God made me think of something. If God created us, why aren't we perfect like him? Some might argue it was Adam and Eve's fault for going to the tree, but if that was so, why couldn't God stop them?
I agree with you here. There are plenty of religious people who embrace science. I think it's a shame when people reject science because it isn't in the bible.Quote:
As I keep saying believing in one does not mean the other has to be thrown away.
We are not God or Gods we are just God's (creation).Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
I do not believe we are sons/children of God either.
It is a weakness in all humans to listen to evil whispers of Satan and that's what happened to Adam and Eve,but the Almighty forgave them when they repented, but were sent to earth as a test to see which of the humans will look,learn and obey the message of the Creator and be thankful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
Lets leave religion out of the question first.
Just the fact that you question the existence of God is a positive step.
That is the first step.
From your other posts, I assume you believe in a life after death, judgement resulting in Heaven or Hell. Other good questions.
I suggest resding the Gospel of John, chapters 3 and 4 especially. Ask questions, that's good.
It takes faith, belief.
It does not take any faith or belief if you can prove 2+2 = 4
I have a graduate biology degree, to me science points to a Creator.
Even the founders of DNA, Watson and Crick, avowed atheist, cannot explain the origin of DNA and the origins of genetic material.
Darwin theorized evolution in an era when microscopes could not identify internal cell structures, so to me, his theory may explain body modifications such as a bird's beak , but it cannot fully prove the origin of life from non-life. No one can.
One can argue it takes more faith to believe in evolution, than in a Creator.
But, again, it takes faith.
Grace and Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
I know I am jumping in a little late so please excuse me if I repeat something here.
I want to put in a quote from Ken Ham who explains this much more eloquently than I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ham
So, I don't think that science contradicts religion, but I think that all of us have a different interpretation behind which they stand for various reasons.
Let me put it to you is this way...
Let's say that Jesus is just a big hoax...
You choose to follow him and the teachings of the bible. In doing so you may become a better person, or feel more spiritually complete, and have peace in your heart.
You will still die some day but you will have experienced these great things and you may possibly have lived a much better life as a result. No heaven, no hell, no big deal.
You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. no heaven, no hell, no big deal.
Let's say that Jesus is real and the teachings are true.
You choose to follow Him and the teachings of the bible. In doing so you become a better person, feel more spiritually complete, and have peace in your heart.
You will still die some day and spend eternity with Him in heaven.
You choose not to follow Him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die and spend eternity in hell.
So really, if following Jesus completes you spiritually and you become a better person for it and you feel joy in your heart...
What do you have to lose by following Him?
What do you have to lose by not following Him?
Personally, following Christ has made me so much more of a person than I could have become on my own. Not following Him is a risk that I am not willing to make.
I hope you find in your heart that which you seek.
Believing in you,
rudi_in
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