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Tj3,
I have previously posted here from the bible how a person can lose their salvation.
Why ask me to do it again?
If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.
I case you never noticed one must be forgiven to to to heaven and Jesus says that IF you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You have never shown a verse which shows that a person can unknowingly cease to be saved.
If I chose to reject God, that would be a deliberate rejection of God and my salvation, and it would be knowingly rejecting God. I agree that we can cease to be saved by doing so. But I disagree that we can lose (unknowingly) our salvation.Quote:
If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.
So He was actually dead and then ceased to be dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Just like when people are saved, and then reject their salvation and cease to be saved.
See what I mean?
Tj3.
Yes SOME people were saved later were not.
Fred
If the Holy Spirit of God is in you, you are born again, you are walking in the spirit, you are a new person, you are not under law but under grace, you are following in the steps of Jesus, it is no longer you that live but Christ that lives in you and it is in Christ we live and move and have our being. Such a person cannot willfully reject Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit for they are all living inside the person and the old man is dead. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian" one who lives by the flesh yet professes to believe. Many that "reject God" after tasting of the spirit were never born again. They simply went through the motions and acted as they believe God wanted them to act and how they saw other Christians acting. That is the problem, it was all acting, and when the curtain comes down at the end of the day, the pseudo believer knows deep in their heart they are just a wannabe Christian. When they realize they really don't have a relationship with God, they think they did everything the way they were supposed to and it didn't work so they reject him. Or they thought becoming a Christian would enable them to "have their best life now" and when God doesn't "work for them" they reject. Many other reasons but the main one is they don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are born of the Spirit, will return to the Father at death, are currently seated in the heavenlies, that God in all three persons is indwelling them and that we are here on earth for the purpose of letting the love of God flow to others.
Yes, I see what you mean BUT I am NOT ready to conceed yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have agrued this before... I need to study this out better... in the words of Arnie... I'll be back.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I look forward to your return!Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Jeff,
I understand what you are saying, but under the conditions that I mentioned I still believe that a person can lose their salvation.
People can be very flexible do to various conditions and happenings as live proceeds on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
How do you harmonize your view that it is possible for a person to cease being saved without their knowledge with this declaration of assurance of security of our salvation?
Quote:
John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV
Tj3,
I have said that. I use what the bible tells us about being saved.
I mentioned two conditions that a person can fall into that will cause them to lose their salvation.
Those are what I believe to be so and stand by.
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I am interested in how you harmonize your view with what scripture says regarding Jesus' assurance that our salvation cannot be snatched from us.
Tj3,
I am interested in your answer to my question IF you ever decide to answer it.
Fred.
Fred.
TJ3 DID answer your question as did I. John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.
homesell, I don't follow what you are saying as fact from scripture, and I would hope Tom agrees that it has nothing to do with semen..Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Fred perhaps what scripture does say can help. And I trust Tom will agree.
Nicodemus ask how one could be born again.(How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?)
Jesus answer was (3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. )
Born of water takes place at the time of birth from the mother's womb. God has provided this as nourishment in many ways. We can read of God's enlightment taking place for some at this time in the womb. Scripture is telling us that from the womb comes man who is born of water, and shall be called holy by the Lord. That is how a new born baby is nourished by God from birth. (innocent) and also why a baby need not be baptized at birth.
Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)
However (John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.)
This is being born again by the Spirit of Life where Christ dwells in you. So we do indeed have two births. The second birth is at the older age as Nicodemus referenced. When man is able to confess his faith and follow willingly the path of righteousness.
Thanks Sndbay,
I think we said the same thing. If not, what you said is what I meant and what I said is what I meant.
"They" won't let me rate you or TJ3 till I "spread it around" some more.
The Greek text is about being born anothen,which in a free translation means , being born from above and not being born again.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Sounds to me like they could lose their salvation if by that you mean the Kingdom of Heaven!
Hi adam7gur,Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
These verses are John being shown the works of the seven candlesticks. Those candlesticks are seven churches(Revel 1:20) And this message is confirming that one of the churches has left their first love (God the love above all else). Althought they teach the fault of evil, they, themselves says they know the apostles but call them liers by: (probably by not following the apostles direction in gospel and tradisions.) Man today make up their own tradisions which makes void the word of God. Also in doing so God says they have left HIS Word which is what the scripture say is God from the beginning, and was made flesh in Christ. They are doing this all in HIS name sake.
So yes this church (members of a fellowship)could lose their salvation in Christ, when they leave HIM for their own prideful ways. They must repent !
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?
The depth and fullness of God is never ending.. The same for HIS love... It is wonderful to speak of HIS Word and all He sent to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.
In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand that part.:confused:
perhaps NOT.. it's endlessQuote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
homesell,
Sorry Jeff,
That verse DOES NOT clearly say that flesh is water. To claim that Jesus said that looks like a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something else.
Flesh is flesh and water is water, just like apples are apples, and fish are fish.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) but in baptism a person is born of spirit.
There is clearly a huge difference there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
That is it exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Tj3,
That is twisting scripture so say something is does NOT say.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) to be born again is to be born of water and spirit (from above).
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit they are NOT the same and neither is flesh water.
Fred
Let's look at it in the context of scripture:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Jesus speaks of two things:
1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit
Then he speaks of two things again:
1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.
The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.
Answer me this:
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV
Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:
Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?
Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?
Tj3,
I looked at it and studies it and I stand my what I said.
I do NOT agree with your interpretation of it.
Fred
I'm with you Fred.Also we seem to forget that Jesus is , as He said to the Samaritan woman, the Water of Life!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
TomQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!
Fred,
You accuse us of twisting scriptures. TJ3 and I are telling you we believe the scripture is clear what Jesus is saying.
You say Jesus is talking about water baptism when Nicodemus never asked about it or mentioned it, or maybe even knew about it. Jesus himself said he didn't come to baptize with water.
It is the baptism of the spirit(being filled with the spirit) that is the spiritual birth from above and causes us to be reborn and be saved. Not any man-made ritual.
In John 19 8-10 Jesus meets Zacchaeus and says, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham." Jesus didn't say salvation has come because this man has been baptized or will be baptized.
When people were healed and then told to report to the priest to let them see that they had been healed, they didn't go to the priest to BE healed. They went to the priest because they already WERE healed.
Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!
Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
God sent HIS SON
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If we do not walk in righteousness we walk in sin of the flesh as filthy rags
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if "so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now "if" any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
No, they could not. The Holy Spirit is not water. One can be symbolic of the other, but they are not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Let me repeat your words.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
"The baptism in water symbolizes also...."
Yes! The water in baptism symbolizes - that is the point. Past that we can look at symbolic parallels, but the point is that it is symbolic.
The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.Quote:
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
So you are saying that there have been two ways to be saved - one through Christ and baptism and another without water, which is..? - Please describe this second way to be saved through which the thief was saved.Quote:
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!
If you are saying that his physical death was required because he was not baptized, you ought to visit a funeral home - it happens to us all, baptized or not.
It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)
Does it REALLY matter? All of this is symbolic. Isn't it the authenticity of the spirit,(that is no secret to God )that really matters. All these other particulars are much ado about nothing. Splitting hairs, I'd say.
JeffQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!
I agree with Adam its not through the grace of jesus we are saved it is the grace within us that saves us. Jesus just came to show us the way it is up to us to apply his teaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
The parting of the red sea is a very good example of grace. As the Isrealites where cornored by the Egyptians they called unto God, and his response was why are you calling me, you have all you need within you.
Everything we need to obtain our salvation is alrady within us
Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us?
Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!
Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.
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