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Originally Posted by Akoue

Hi Joe, Hi Fred. Good to "see" you guys.

Yes, Fred, it has come to look like his reason for rejecting it is just that the denominations he doesn't like teach it. He appears to be lashing out at boogymen. And very angrily, too.

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Hi everybody!

It seems to prove the adage that nothing ever really changes!

Let's take TJ's scenario and turn it around and see what objections we get.

By the magic of the “if”, our friend is now a young man. He makes a commitment to God and accepts Christ. But, becomes a depraved, drugs ridden, dishonest, etc. and winds up in the gutter dead. Obviously he performed no works. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to hell how is it his faith alone didn’t save him.

JoeT

Joe,
Very good question.
The bible teaches us that by our works (good or bad) we are judged.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,

Your question gets at one of the things that is so unsavory about the faith-only credo: So long as I close my eyes really tight and tell myself that I'm saved, I can do whatever I want and not have to worry about risking my salvation. This is just the thing for which Paul chastised the Corinthians. And it's just a repugnant view. (Watch, Tj will quote the pervious sentence and say: "So now you're saying that the Bible is repugnant" or some-such nonsense.)

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Hi everybody!

It seems to prove the old adage that nothing ever really changes!

Let's take TJ's scenario and turn it around and see what objections we get.

By the magic of the “if”, our friend is now a young man. He makes a commitment to God and accepts Christ. But, becomes a depraved, drugs ridden, dishonest, etc., and winds up in the gutter dead. Obviously he performed no works. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to hell how is it his faith alone didn't save him.

JoeT

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I never said that a person cannot reject their salvation. Whether he would go to hell would be a matter for God to decide.

But you DID say that water baptism and works are essential for salvation, so...

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Question by TJ:

This question shows a fundamental misconception of baptism. Baptism is the regeneration by being re-born by water and the Holy Ghost, being born again in the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God's Kingdom. Through matter (the water) and form (the invocation of the Holy Trinity) we ...

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You were given two examples that scripture gives of people saved without water baptism. Before we get into further detail, deal with those two examples, because all that we need is one example to show your argument in is error.

Second, you were also asked this:

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Please answer that question also.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Do you honestly mean to liken YOURSELF to the APOSTLE PAUL? (Nope, no humility there.)

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You mean a sinner saved through the cross of Christ? Yep.

You think that you are better than him?

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
Very good question.
The bible teaches us that by our works (good or bad) we are judged.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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That is true... and where are we when this happens? Heaven ! Not at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT BUT... in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ! At the Judgement seat of Christ. SAVED! SAVED from hell. WE WILL be judged for our works.. but it isn't a question of our salvation!! It is a question of our life on earth and how we will be rewarded for all eternity!! Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven... really big.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Hi Joe, Hi Fred. Good to "see" you guys.

Yes, Fred, it has come to look like his reason for rejecting it is just that the denominations he doesn't like teach it. He appears to be lashing out at boogymen. And very angrily, too.

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Look at who is angry and getting abuse! Clearly I am hitting sore points :p

BTW, I am not affiliated with any denomination. Neither do I endorse any.

I suppose going after the person is a substitute for a good answer for some folk!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You mean a sinner saved through the cross of Christ? Yep.

You think that you are better than him?

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TJ3,

The apostle paul called himself a sinner of whom he was CHIEF. He wouldn't have it any other way. LOL good answer I would give you a greenie but I have to spread the love with others first and the site wouldn't let me... ;_

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Originally Posted by classyT

that is true...and where are we when this happens? heaven ! not at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT BUT...in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ! At the Judgement seat of Christ. SAVED! SAVED from hell. WE WILL be judged for our works..but it isn't a question of our salvation!!!! It is a question of our life on earth and how we will be rewarded for all eternity!!! Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven...really big.

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Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

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Tj3,

Me too! Last time I checked all my righteousness is as a fithy rag! I don't reckon I can make it less filthy. ANYTHING I do and I mean ANYTHING that is for the Lord's Glory... will be cast at HIS feet. I didn't do it on my own. AMEN. People need to heed and understand the scripture.

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've addressed.

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the others being *saved*. There is mention made of the fact that they were promptly baptized, though.

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. Passage? And where does the NT say that we are saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you going to come through on any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to understand EACH of them.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven...really big.

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Squander their time not doing what, works? There is a point to God’s plan as to why we are here and not in heaven right now. Would our maker put us here and then damn us to hell unless we say some formula “I accept Christ as my savior”? God didn’t make mankind evil, what kind of God would that be? God made us good, with a free-will, and because of Adam and Eve’s fall from grace we are left with a concupiscence which is “in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason.”

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've addressed.

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the others being *saved*. There is mention made of the fact that they were promptly baptized, though.

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. passage? And where does the NT say that we are saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you gonna come through on any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to understand EACH of them.

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If works has nothing to do with redemption, then we can say that Judas is safe in heaven. There’s little doubt he confessed Christ as his Lord. Ya think? Nah!

JoeT

Hmmm? Golly gee wiz joe... I didn't realize that the Lord Jesus had died on the cross and rose again BEFORE Judas killed himself. ( so your theory makes NO SENSE) FIRST of all.. Judas didn't EVER believe... he was simply just one of the crowd that said... Oh yeah... I'm a "Christ follower."

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

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Who ever said that you have to "perfectly live the life"? No one has ever said that salvation is granted only to the sinless. (The Catholic-Orthodox view regards that as a heresy, in fact.)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Judas didn't EVER believe....

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Where are you getting that?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But you DID say that water baptism and works are essential for salvation, so....

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No. What is said in Scripture is that baptism is essential for redemption. Furthermore that the faith received must be accompanied with works. We’ve covered it several times now.

JoeT

Akoue,

That he was never a believer. He followed the crowd and he liked his position and what the LOrd could do for HIM. But when push came to shove he betrayed him.. he didn't believe he was GOD.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Squander their time not doing what, works? There is a point to God’s plan as to why we are here and not in heaven right now. Would our maker put us here and then damn us to hell unless we say some formula “I accept Christ as my savior”? God didn’t make mankind evil, what kind of God would that be? God made us good, with a free-will, and because of Adam and Eve’s fall from grace we are left with a concupiscence which is “in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason.”

JoeT

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NO.. squander their time living more for themselves than for CHRIST!!

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Originally Posted by classyT

Akoue,

That he was never a believer. He followed the crowd and he liked his position and what the LOrd could do for HIM. But when push came to shove he betrayed him..he didn't believe he was GOD.

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Scripture doesn't say that. It does, however, tell us that he was possessed. I'm just confused about where this comes from: Where are we told that he liked his position and what Christ could do for him? You may be right, I just don't remember this.