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Originally Posted by sndbay

What if you refuse to be baptised, or think it is not necessary to be baptised. I have viewed the choice of some that feel it is not necessary. Would it be wise not to receive this gift of The Holy Spirit from baptism?

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Do you think that obedience (works) is necessary for salvation? We are also commanded not to sin in any of the numerous ways that we can sin. Is that not also disobedience? Yet which of these sins, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not covered by the blood that Jesus shed on the cross?

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If we say that obedience is necessary, then you are condemned under the law. If that were the case we would all be going to hell because none of us have perfectly obeyed His
commandments. That is the essence of the gospel. Because through sin, we all condemned ourselves to hell and had no means by which to pay the penalty for sin, Jesus came to earth as a man to die on the cross and paid the price for us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the
Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

God understands that we as humans will sin - that's why He offers us grace. Of course none of us have perfectly obeyed his commands and God knows this and he tells us through Paul. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. If it were possible for us to live perfect lives there would be no need for Him to offer us grace. We are saved by grace, but grace is not the only thing that saves us as you seem to believe.

Keep in mind that if you fail on one part of the law (i.e. baptism), then you are guilty of all of the law:

James 2:9-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Be careful.

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And what was that unforgivable sin in Luke 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

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What has this to do with baptism? And what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? We are told in the context:

Matt 12:32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

It is speaking blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Note that blasphemy against Jesus can be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

What does scripture say about receiving the Holy Spirit?

[I]John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

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Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost [Gifts] not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
Living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
Would receive; for the Holy Spirit [Gifts] was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Rom 8:9-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit
who dwells in you.
NKJV

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KJV
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,[new nature] if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of His. But if Messiah [be] in you, the body [indeed] is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies also by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if
children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him,
that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

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Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself [The Holy Spirit] beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, heirs also; heirs[indeed] of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, in order that we may be glorified together with Him also.
KJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Gal 3:5-6
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

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Gal 3:5-6 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,[the new nature] and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. KJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard
the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
NKJV

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Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.And they of the circumcision[Jews] which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry[continue] certain days.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost[ 1 Cor 12: 4-11] fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like free gift [Cp2:38 and John 4:10] as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Tj3 , We have some differences and if you view where I put refer to either scripture or word meaning, it will note the reasoning behind each difference that I give. I really did not have enough time available to do more at this time.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Tj3 , We have some differences and if you view where I put refer to either scripture or word meaning, it will note the reasoning behind each difference that I give. I really did not have enough time available to do more at this time.

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sndbay,

I looked these over, and I would suggest that every one agrees with the position that I stated when read in context. If you feel otherwise, please feel free to explain your reasoning and we can discuss.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

sndbay,

I looked these over, and I would suggest that each and every one agrees with the position that I stated when read in context. If you feel otherwise, please feel free to explain your reasoning and we can discuss.

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Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Trusting in what is written, that power given through the Holy Spirit would come. This power is not what is given to all.
What gifts of the Holy Spirit is given, are of His choice to all of us. Just to assume it is The Holy Spirit in His self is not what can be assumed. And that is why reading more then one verse is important.

What do you assume the gift of The Holy Spirit in baptism gives? Are we all children of God?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you think that obedience (works) is necessary for salvation? We are also commanded not to sin in any of the numerous ways that we can sin. Is that not also disobedience? Yet which of these sins, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not covered by the blood that Jesus shed on the cross?

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If we say that obedience is necessary, then you are condemned under the law. If that were the case we would all be going to hell because none of us have perfectly obeyed His
commandments. That is the essence of the gospel. Because through sin, we all condemned ourselves to hell and had no means by which to pay the penalty for sin, Jesus came to earth as a man to die on the cross and paid the price for us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the
Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

God understands that we as humans will sin - that's why He offers us grace. Of course none of us have perfectly obeyed his commands and God knows this and he tells us through Paul. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. If it were possible for us to live perfect lives there would be no need for Him to offer us grace. We are saved by grace, but grace is not the only thing that saves us as you seem to believe.

Keep in mind that if you fail on one part of the law (i.e. baptism), then you are guilty of all of the law:

James 2:9-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Be careful.



What has this to do with baptism? And what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? We are told in the context:

Matt 12:32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

It is speaking blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Note that blasphemy against Jesus can be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit Spirit.

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Ask I can be quoted as posting, that (we) believe in Jesus. That did include you and myself. The gift we are given in grace [love] is Jesus. A free gift [Romans 5:18] The gift of rightousness [ Romans 5:17] JESUS a gift of GOD [John 4:10]

Gifts are like precious stones [Proverbs 17:8]

Everyone given proper gifts [ 1 Cr 7:7 ]

Giving according to the measure and of the gift, Christ [Eph 4:7]

Unity of Faith achieved [ Eph 4:13]

What then can cause lose of these gifts? That which is found [Hebrews 6:4]

sndbay
Yes a person who once had it CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

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No one is arguingb against the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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Trusting in what is written, that power given through the Holy Spirit would come. This power is not what is given to all.

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Right - only to those who are saved.

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What gifts of the Holy Spirit is given, are of His choice to all of us.

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Agreed.

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Just to assume it is The Holy Spirit in His self is not what can be assumed. And that is why reading more then one verse is important.

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It is not clear what you are trying to say here.

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What do you assume the gift of The Holy Spirit in baptism gives? Are we all children of God?

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Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is gioven when a person believes, whether baptized or not.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is gioven when a person believes, whether baptized or not.

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Scripture is clear to say we are to be baptised.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Can a man decide not to do what God has ordained [come forth] to be done?

Are we to question God?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Scripture is clear to say we are to be baptised.

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Agreed. But it does not say that it is essential for salvation.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed. But it does not say that it is essential for salvation.

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Does this sound essential? Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ


The Essential Witness

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Does this sound essential? Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

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The question here is what is the verse referring to by baptism?

Col 2:11-13
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
NKJV

Were you actually buried with Jesus? Or is baptism symbolic of that burial?

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

There is one essential baptism. Is it baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit, which all who believe receive?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The question here is what is the verse referring to by baptism?

Col 2:11-13
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
NKJV

Were you actually buried with Jesus? Or is baptism symbolic of that burial?

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Strong concordance refer: baptisma 908 Greek bä'p-tē-smä

1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.

In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907). baptizō

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

There is one essential baptism. Is it baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit, which all who believe receive?

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It clearly states For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Each are, yet one...Each their own ordained order you could say.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).

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You seem to be dancing around my question, but you are not dealing with it.

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It clearly states For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Each are, yet one... Each their own ordained order you could say.

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God does not require ordination, but again you are not addressing the points that I raised. And it is not clear what point you are trying to make.

Interesting that the Bible can't seem to speak for itself with you two... ;)

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Interesting that the Bible can't seem to speak for itself with you two..... ;)

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The Bible is clear. It is not clear the point that sndbay is trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The Bible is clear. It is not clear the point that sndbay is trying to make.

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Tj3, I do apologize if it is me you don't understand. But for the choice within all my mind and all my heart which is contained in faith, belief , and love of "The Word" = "Jesus" I am thankful that God has revealed what is there and it is essential to me. I trust God's Will is done for each of us.

I have tried to explain my belief but perhaps I depend on scripture more then my own interperation when posting. Naturally because I know that God does the revealing. And I accept ownership of my belief, and feel everyone else has their own choices to make.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Tj3, I do apologize if it is me you don't understand. But for the choice within all my mind and all my heart which is contained in faith, belief , and love of "The Word" = "Jesus" I am thankful that God has revealed what is there and it is essential to me. I trust God's Will is done for each of us.

I have tried to explain my belief but perhaps I depend on scripture more then my own interperation when posting. Naturally because I know that God does the revealing. And I accept ownership of my belief, and feel everyone else has their own choices to make.

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It is fine to depend upon scripture, but it is not clear in many cases why you are posting the scripture. I read the scripture and I agree with what it says, but presumably there is a reason why you chose those particular passages, and that is what is not always obvious. Presumably these were not just passages randmoly chosen.

ScottRC,
Yes it does seem that the bible does not speak for itself for some people.
Or they confuse the meaning of various passages with each other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

ScottRC,
Yes it does seem that the bible does not speak for itself for some people.
Or they confuse the meaning of various passages with each other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Yes, some people choose to interpret for themselves, or allow their church to interpret for them.

The hardest thing about this question is that it almost has to assume that God experiences time in the same way that we do. (As a 2 dimensional picture moves in a 3d world so do we as 3d creatures move in a 4D universe)

Looking at God from a Biblical perspective we see a huge Omnipresence being that is present in every place and at any and every time; unbounded in the universe. It is the concept of the ability to be everywhere at any point in time simultaneously

If I handed you a picture and asked if the person was smiling you could tell me yes or no just by looking at the picture. Imagine, if you will, being able to look at time (as a whole) as a single snap shot. Obviously we can’t do that but by comparing the lower dimensions to the higher dimensions we begin to get a faint idea. (A video that helped me: Imagining the Tenth Dimension - A Book by Rob Bryanton)

To God time is just a snapshot. Everything there, black and white, easy to interpret and understand.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."