That's exactly what "you're" saying, in reference to the flood.Quote:
Nobody said it was "scrabbled together out of thin air"
You're saying it didn't happen; a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning.
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That's exactly what "you're" saying, in reference to the flood.Quote:
Nobody said it was "scrabbled together out of thin air"
You're saying it didn't happen; a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning.
The Good Samaritan is another allegory (parable) Jesus told.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
None of which is indicated in the passage. You're just making it up as you go along. You don't have a clue as to what Jesus knew or believed in that regard.Quote:
Jesus knew it was an oft-told story among the Jews. Jesus, being a consumate storyteller, used the idea of a major flood engulfing a id-obsessed humanity and the raining down of fire and brimstone on inhospitable city inhabitants as alerts to change their selfish ways and become more loving toward others.
I'm sorry, but that is completely nonsensical. There was never a thought that the story of the good Samaritan was anything other than a parable. With Noah and Lot, Jesus drew upon OT stories believed by everyone to be true.Quote:
The Good Samaritan is another allegory (parable) Jesus told.
Nah. You're lying like a dog. I've never, ever said that children go to hell.Quote:
You're the absolute liar here. You quoted many Bible verses saying unbelievers go to hell. Are you now denying that you did that? What, then, is your current belief on where unbelievers go after death?
You missed the point. Here I will repost. I would post the account of the flood/Ark but it would take up too much space. The full account, of the insignificant dimensions and pitch, rooms, roof, etcQuote:
The Good Samaritan is another allegory (parable) Jesus told.
Quote:
What you find in the Gospels is historical.—I’ve always been intrigued by the way in which Luke begins chapter 3. Now, he’s writing a Gospel. He’s not writing a history book. He’s not writing a biography, although there’s biographical material. He’s writing a Gospel. He’s writing good news. And this is how he starts his third chapter: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias [the] tetrarch of Abilene…”I won’t read any further on. What in the world are you doing here, Luke? He’s setting the reality and the truth of the Gospel within the historical context of the time. He’s reminding the reader—the thinking reader—that this is not something that has been scrabbled together out of the air. These are real events, in real time, involving real people.
Answer to a question that was not asked. The question was, if the great flood is supposed to be an allegory, then what moral meaning was it conveying?Quote:
I have certainly accomplished that an all-human life-ending planet-wide flood never happened.
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Even worse for your point, the Ketef Hinnom Silver Scrolls indicate a much earlier date for the OT.
Thank you for demonstrating that you know nothing of those silver scrolls.Quote:
Oh, please - that has nothing - NADA - to do with Genesis. Stop lying - you're supposed to be a Christian.
I sure do wish one of you would take a stab at these questions.
This is the text in question from Matt. 24. "37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
1. What indication in that passage do you see that Jesus did not regard it to be genuinely historical?
2. An even bigger question. What point do you think Jesus was trying to make in referencing the unexpected judgment that came in the day of Noah?
This is a similar text from Luke. "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot-- they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all--so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Lk. 17:28-30). Please note that it is being used to make the exact same point about the revelation (coming) of the Son of Man. Coincidence??
1. What indication do you see in the passage showing that Jesus did not regard it to be genuinely historical, assuming that your personal bias is not a satisfactory answer?
2. An even bigger question. What point do you think Jesus was trying to make in appealing to the judgment of God upon Sodom and it's relationship to His second coming?
Of course, allegories often have lots of details to give them more substance and believability. (I've read the story of the Flood countless times.)Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
"Believability" in what?Quote:
more substance and believability.
I sure do wish one of you would take a stab at these questions.
This is the text in question from Matt. 24. "37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
1. What indication in that passage do you see that Jesus did not regard it to be genuinely historical?
2. An even bigger question. What point do you think Jesus was trying to make in referencing the unexpected judgment that came in the day of Noah?
This is a similar text from Luke. "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot-- they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all--so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Lk. 17:28-30). Please note that it is being used to make the exact same point about the revelation (coming) of the Son of Man. Coincidence??
1. What indication do you see in the passage showing that Jesus did not regard it to be genuinely historical, assuming that your personal bias is not a satisfactory answer?
2. An even bigger question. What point do you think Jesus was trying to make in appealing to the judgment of God upon Sodom and it's relationship to His second coming?
Love one another. NOW!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I did awreddy. See post #272.Quote:
I sure do wish one of you would take a stab at these questions.
And how do you get that? And if that was his goal, then why didn't He use a story of love such as Ruth and Naomi, or Abraham and Isaac? Why would He appeal to two stories of judgment if His meaning was to love each other? That doesn't make sense.Quote:
Love one another. NOW!
No, you did not. You appealed to some supposedly special knowledge you claim to have about what Jesus knew about these stories. But you never appealed to anything in the passages themselves that would indicate Jesus considered them to be purely allegorical.Quote:
I did awreddy. See post #272.
Yes, and more likely than not, it took place, in real time, with real people.Quote:
The Good Samaritan is another allegory (parable) Jesus told.
boggles the mind don't it. You and your "allegories". Maybe we need to take another look at Matthew 13:10?
Um, I thought you understood what an allegory is. You've never read a fable or parable or allegorical story to a child? And then asked that child to tell you what that story really is telling us?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Jesus used colorful allegories/parables to teach truths to uneducated people. In other words, Jesus had the wisdom to simplify the profound spiritual truths He needed to share with humanity and put them in the form of relatable stories that are easy to understand.Quote:
No, you did not. You appealed to some supposedly special knowledge you claim to have about what Jesus knew about these stories. But you never appealed to anything in the passages themselves that would indicate Jesus considered them to be purely allegorical.
You really need to take another look at Matthew 13:10Quote:
Jesus used colorful allegories/parables to teach truths to uneducated people
If I buy you a Bible will you read it?
Evasion, your name is Wondergirl.Quote:
Um, I thought you understood what an allegory is. You've never read a fable or parable or allegorical story to a child? And then asked that child to tell you what that story really is telling us?
You are still just rambling on and on about what you think might be true, but you have shown nothing in those two passages that would indicate that Jesus considered the stories to be fictional and thus purely allegorical. So I take that to mean that you are strictly guessing and have gained nothing from the stories that would show them to be fictional.Quote:
Jesus used colorful allegories/parables to teach truths to uneducated people. In other words, Jesus had the wisdom to simplify the profound spiritual truths He needed to share with humanity and put them in the form of relatable stories that are easy to understand.
Now of course Jesus used parables which were fictional accounts, but there is no reason anywhere you can point to to show that He also considered OT stories to be fictional.
That's because I sometimes wondered about the people I dealt with in the library where I worked. And now on AMHD.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Not all of them were fiction. Just the allegorical ones are.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"How did you get that?" It's a simple question. You elected not to answer it which is your choice. Jesus rather plainly intended them to be understood in a different manner.
According to you. And we know how you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Jesus is describing His second coming. He picks, in both instances, stories which portray judgment arriving suddenly and unexpectedly for those who are not following Him. And you decide that love is the idea He is promoting, a word, or for that matter an idea, which is found nowhere in either passage???
Well...OK.
That was Jesus' entire message, the reason He came to live among us -- Love.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You try to place that idea on EVERYTHING Jesus said or did. That is an overreach. Jesus certainly is a God of love, but there is also judgment involved. In fact you can't really understand His love without understanding His judgment. You are as much in error as those who speak of nothing but judgment.
I love this passage from Isaiah 45. If you are a Spurgeon fan, it is the passage that led him to Christ. It is amazing because in it we see God as both judge and savior. Those two aspects can only come together in Christ.
Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the Lord?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.
22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
The same idea is found in Romans 3:26. "...for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
So we have to fear, not love. "I'm going to hell unless I believe."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Gospel means "good news" not "the big threat".
You've missed it WG- Jesus came to die on a cross. He came for us, out of his love for us. He didn't come to love.Quote:
That was Jesus' entire message, the reason He came to live among us -- Love.
Stick with it, you might get it someday. "our" love is as filthy rags! we need to keep our eyes on the Cross. We are to Die (Not Love).
This makes no sense -Quote:
Of course, allegories often have lots of details to give them more substance and believability.
What believability? Believability to a lie???
Well, It would sound more believable (being an Allegory???) if I knew how tall the Jewish fellow was, and I really think if he was to tell me what color shirt the good samaritan was wearing. What did the dimensions of the Ark tell us, the dimensions of God's love??? You're being silly.Quote:
The Good Samaritan is another allegory
The Gospel according to Wondergirl.
And, like Lazarus, I'll reach down and offer you a bit of water when you get thirsty.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Nope, didn't miss it. Even you said it. Exactly, waltero.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
His entire time on earth was loving others.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
How do you figure?Quote:
His entire time on earth was loving others.
No it was not. That is only true in your biased imagination. He was not loving when He cleansed the temple TWICE. He was not loving when He heavily criticized the Pharisees. His description of Himself in Matthew 25 is not loving. He was hard on His disciples several times. You are letting your preconceived ideas hold too much sway.
It wasn't love? He was getting paid? He healed the sick, He raised the dead, He suffered the little children to come unto Him, He turned water into wine at a wedding, He cleansed the lepers of their ulcerated skin, He fed hungry thousands with very little food, He gave sight to the blind.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
In all sorts of ways -- and, of course, with God's helpQuote:
And how do you suppose you're going to simulate that love?
WG, Athos has openly spit in the face of God. Do you really want to join him?Quote:
That he's an idiot
It doesn't matter where you came from or what your background- We are all sinners and we will always be sinners.
The gospel isn't merely a presentation of an Idea, the Gospel is the Power of God.
Deceived Walter. She is simply deceived.
About what?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No love for others in your life and words, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
about all the bondage and tyranny of Sin.Quote:
About what?
I believe you're looking at Athos, look over here, here I am.Quote:
No love for others in your life and words, I see.
Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross, and wondered why we should be so thrilled, seeing a man bleeding, dying on a cross?
Have you ever heard of a Wrathful Lamb? Look in the book. Yeah, it talks about the Lamb's wrath. not too scary eh.
When you make statements like: I was a Sunday school teacher, I am a daughter of a preacher man, I'm an educated woman...yup, you're in like Flynn. God has to accept you now. You have read the Bible many times- so that is why you never quote scripture?
This would only create confusion, if not deceitful. I suppose you felt you had to say something, knowing my reply had just popped your balloon. Did you noticed Athos, he had no clue what I was saying, once I explained to him what an Allegory is, he immediately understood my explanation as a game-changer...he quietly slipped out. Athos is thinking of this world, he doesn't know the God of the Bible. He lacks understand because he is thinking with his flesh. I understand you and him go way back, don't allow him to lead you down that path. When you agree (which is 99.9% of the time) with him, you are making a grave mistake...your grave.Quote:
Of course, allegories often have lots of details to give them more substance and believability.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. Jesus has broken those chains and freed me.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I cannot believe you are saying these things. Have you ever done any mission work?Quote:
Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross
I don't cherrypick.Quote:
You have read the Bible many times, so that is why you never quote scripture?
How does refuting scripture with a silly "no" help? Every time I quote scripture, your only comeback is "No", "Nope"
Not true, etc Especially when you spoke as if Jesus was in error when he was talking about "Unless a seed dies, thing.
You should look up science Friday. It will explain how a seed dies once it is planted.
I think your view has become clouded. We need to suffer the Cross every day. We live Love. we preach Christ Crucified.Quote:
Have you ever looked at Jesus on the Cross
When you lose sight of the Cross, then you lose...
Well, it's back to work. Tell Athos Goodby, for me. I will miss him. Take care of yourself WG.
Later JL, Your posts are a big help to me. Athos is my fave though. He is so worldly and has no clue what language the Bible speaks. I enjoy seeking truth while he's around, he presents questions that really hit the spot. The righteous don't make it into heaven, Heaven is for sinners.
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You think wrong, my friend.Quote:
I think your view has become clouded. We need to suffer the Cross every day. We live Love. we preach Christ Crucified.
When you lose sight of the Cross, then you lose...
You seem to be obsessed with me. Your posts include me even when replying to someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Rarely, do I see a coherent reply from you - just more of your condemnation of those who don't go along with your (often incomprehensible) view of Christianity.
When you think you have all the answers, that's a good sign you're on the wrong track, walter. Try to be less narrow and a little more open-minded. It won't hurt you, might even help you.
And be careful about that habit you evangelicals have about threatening anyone who believes differently. It may backfire on you someday.
Showing a lot of fear - not from others - but from your own doubt about your own faith which is evident from your excessive attempt to sermonize and act as though you had a direct line to God when complaining about others here. The Lady doth protest too much, said the great man.
I take it you're leaving us. Go in peace. I trust you've learned something from your brief sojourn with us.
You think Jesus, Paul, John, David, and Jonathan were all gay, and you really wonder what you might be deceived about? It's like I've said many times. You make up your mind about what you believe, and then you look for any little scrap of scripture that might in some small way support it. You really have no concern about what the Bible says. You said that everything Jesus did was about love. I pointed out many places where that was not true. Your response is to just breezily move on to something else.Quote:
Deceived Walter. She is simply deceived.
About what?
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by waltero https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom...post-right.png
Quote:
WG, Athos has openly spit in the face of God. Do you really want to join him?
Some more of your selective criticism. Athos says far more outrageous things, but you never "correct" him. Wonder why?Quote:
No love for others in your life and words, I see.
Hang in there, Walter. One thing you can be sure of here. We discuss endlessly, yet no one's mind ever gets changed. I really wonder what the point is.Quote:
Later JL, Your posts are a big help to me.
You have no idea what love is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
In each of your examples Jesus is correcting others. Loving others is disciplining - like a parent scolds a child. You think love is some weak woosy thing. It's not. Jesus expressed his idea of love saying, "Greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend". Hardly a sentimental idea.
What outrageous things have I said? Put up or shut up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Correcting others? He made a whip, turned over tables, and physically drove out the money changers from the Temple. Some correction! His "woe unto you" passage to the Pharisees also was not corrective but rather condemnatory.
Beyond that, I actually tend to agree with your idea about discipline equating to love, but it's not the syrupy sweet love that WG seems to have in mind. And you neglected to make an observation about His description of Himself in Matthew 25 where He lovingly welcomes those who belong to Him, but condemns those who don't to eternity in hell, a truth repeated several dozen times in the NT, thus ensuring that no thinking person can make a reference to "cherry-picking" when the Mt. 25 passage is mentioned.
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