It is the Christian standard of doctrine. Is it not yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
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It is the Christian standard of doctrine. Is it not yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Yeah, this doesn't tell me what "indwell" means. Is this some kind of recent neologism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Here's what James 4.5 says: "Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, 'God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us [phthonon epipothei to pneuma ho katokisen en hemin]."
And you think this is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't say anything about that. It's talking about the pneuma which God has put into each of us. (God breathed into Adam his pneuma--all living things, even non-believers and Catholics, have that.) Your confused about Scripture *again*.
I just read again acts 10 and it does say that the Holy Spirit cam upon Corneleous and others so Peter had them baptized so the could receive the Holy Spirit.
So my statement that a person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit before being baptized stands as a true biblical fact.
Fred
The Holy Spirit is God. And God gives Himself to us repeatedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Do you believe that God can only give Himself to us once? If so, where does Scripture say that?
Sincerely,
De Maria
It sounds to me like you are confused. If you were to undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, it would be very beneficial in helping you understand this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV
De Maria,
Very good question.
Fred
Fine. But you keep *misunderstanding* it! It looks to me like your standard of doctrine is a really, really bad translation. Maybe enroll in an intro. Ancient Greek class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
First I'd bet your next pay check that he knows more about biblical interpretation than both of us put together. You might recall, he's the professor! But, how would I know what "indwelling" is, I'm Catholic; Catholics "outdwell"
JoeT
Yes, it is. Along with Tradition. And Magisterium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That is quite a version of the Bible that you have there. I have read the passage in many different versions and never found one which corrupted the verse like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV
Acts 10:47 clearly speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit in the past tense, and the water baptism is yet to come.
I stick to the word of God. I do not add the words of men to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Joe.
LOL
Fred
But it doesn't say, "have been saved as we have." So why do you add that to Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Since even the Baptized fall away.
How does anything you say here show me that I've misread James 4.5? "Undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer"? But that would be extra-biblical; I'd be appealing to something other than Scripture. Wouldn't I then be guilty of entertaining a private interpretation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is a lovely passage from John. It says that those who believe *WILL* receive the Holy Spirit.
He claims to be, but he has missed on some basic Greek, some basic logic and does not understand the Biblical doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if he is a professor, he is not one that I would seek if I were still in university.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
You were thinking of going outside the Bible? I wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
As did those in Acts 10.Quote:
This is a lovely passage from John. It says that those who believe *WILL* receive the Holy Spirit.
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I'd give you a greenie, but it won't let me (like I think you really care about greenies). But, honestly, I'm learning a lot from you and Fred and De Maria. Fine faithful souls all!
Tradition is the Word of God. Jesus established Tradition and wrote not a word of Scripture. And the New Testament arose from Jesus' Tradition. And Magisterium, the Teaching Church, another Tradition established by Jesus (Matt 28:20) teaches the Word of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Nice response, that’s twice in one night – that’s all you get!Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Semper Fi
Jesus' tradition is one thing - your denominational tradition is something much different.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Your denomination did not exist until 325AD.Quote:
And Magisterium, the Teaching Church, another Tradition established by Jesus (Matt 28:20) teaches the Word of God.
Tj3 is again making a laughing stock of himself trying to make him look better at Greek that a professional professor.
Tj3's Greek has been criticized many times on several boards.
So it is nothing new.
LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred,
If the best that you can do is personal abuse, that says more about you than me. Jesus said gthis to thos of us who would be abused for our faith:
Matt 10:24-26
24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
NKJV
Tj,
Where did I make a mistake with the Greek? Can you point that out to me?
I tell the true which is not abuse.
Don't make false accusations.
It is the truth.
Fred
I don't know. I think it says he has a sense of humor--something you might look into getting yourself one day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Akoue,
Good advice.
Fred
Well, what about pre-325? You haven't answered my questions about the early Church. How do explain the fact that the Fathers of the first two centuries disagree with you. (Even Tertullian, who opposed infant baptism, still thought we have to be baptized.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Was Judas Iscariot an Apostle of Christ's? Was he therefore baptized? And did he receive the Holy Spirit? Was he saved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Heb 10 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved. That is why the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Because they reject the Holy Spirit which indwells their soul and thereby also reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and the Grace freely given by God for their salvation.
It is a thrice unholy rejection of God's Mercy.
Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I guess that I must be making some good points if all you can do it attack the messenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I did answer. Whether it is you, or me or anyone else, opinions must be submitted to the word of God. If you want to discuss something ogther than scripture, find someone who wishes to discuss it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Nope. I just think you're silly for going after Fred. (Also, I just think Fred and Joe have contributed some much-needed humor.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Fine, but you're a lousy interpreter of that word--as we just saw, YET AGAIN, in the case of James 4.5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Pre 325, lets see:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Believe in Sola Scriptura? No.
Papias
Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (The Sayings of the Lord [between A.D. 115 and 140] as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).
Irenaeus
For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal [Catholic] Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles (Against Heresies 2:9 [A.D. 189]).
True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the Word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy… (ibid. 4:33 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be, there will be the true Scriptures, and the true expositions, of all the true Christian traditions (The Prescription of Heretics 19 [A.D. 200]).
Origen
Seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the Apostles, and remaining in the churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition (On First Principles Bk. 1 Preface 2 [circa A.D. 225]).
Believe in the Pope? Yes.
Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret.. . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).
Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).
Clement of Alexandria
[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian
[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19].. . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).
Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).
Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church".. . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e. apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).
Believe in Faith alone? No.
Clement of Rome
Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words.. . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).
Theophilus of Antioch
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).
Clement of Alexandria
When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).
Origen
Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).
Cyprian
You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).
Believe in prayer to Saints? Yes.
Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).
Pectorius
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).
Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).
Anonymous
Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).
Anonymous
Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).
De Maria
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Probably. Though I do not believe that scripture says one way or the other.Quote:
Was he therefore baptized?
No. The indwelling was not yet given John 7:39.Quote:
And did he receive the Holy Spirit?
I cannot say if he received Christ as his saviour before he died. I could only speculate.Quote:
Was he saved?
Where did it say that? What I see in scripture says the exact opposite:Quote:
Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.
John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
Having seen your interpretation, that comment means little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I don't see where that says that the unsaved can't receive the Holy Spirit. Where this is clear that those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved. Because whether you are saved or not is not for you to decide but for God.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Right. And so it's not for you to say. Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
John 14:16-17Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
Really? Read also John 7:39Quote:
Where this is clear that those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved.
I cannot see how you come to that interpretation. I don't see anywhere in this passage where that is even implied. Pleaase explain how you come to that conclusion.Quote:
Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.
How does Jn.7.39 pose a problem for De Maria's claim? It says that the Spirit had not yet come. I don't see how it speaks to the point at issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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