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Cosyk.
Sooo. How's about picking up the bible and finding out for sure by yourself? Start in John and asked God to help you... A. not fall asleep.. lol ( I have read your posts) and B. show YOU the truth. Take it slow... a couple of verses a day and ask GOD to enlighten you. :)
But it's soooooooooo borrrrrrrrrrring! Whine whine:( Can't I just allow God to speak to my heart as usual? God does enlighten me, all the time. People read different verses to support their choices. I used to do that. Back in my early 20s. Drove me crazy because I just kept looking until I could find the answer I wanted. Then I thought, how right could it be if I could do that? I feel like I've been so much more authentic to my sense of right and wrong when I truly listen to my heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
cozyk - I am really curious about where exactly you are coming from at times. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything so please don't misunderstand me. But it SEEMS to me that you really find Christians silly and that you are here on these threads to make that point over and over again. Is it that you just like pointing out how silly Christians are? Or do I have you wrong? Because that's the way it seems to me. Maybe it makes you feel good to point out the flaws in others and in their beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Again, I'm not trying to piss you off or start a fight with you. But it appears that you have vastly different views from Christians and I get that. I guess what puzzles me is if you know you don't personally hold to the beliefs that Christians do, why even bother coming on threads like these and disagreeing with them? Hey, it's a free country and I certainly have no problem with you disagreeing but there's part of me that wonders why you do it here so often? I mean, I don't believe in Islam and I disagree with its tenets of faith, but I don't even care to go on the Islamic board and openly disagree with Muslims there. I could but I don't care to.
Here's my question. When you turn on your computer and you log onto AskMe help desk and venture into the Christian forum, what attitude is predominantly in your heart? Is it, "I can't wait to see what these clowns are talking about now?" Is it "I really feel that I want to share my perspective with these folks because I think they are missing something profound"? Or is it something completely different?
Cozyk, I hope you would be willing to answer my question because I am genuinely serious in asking it. I have no ill-will towards you nor do I have any resentment in my heart towards you but I think my question is a fair one.
Sincerely.
It is a fair question and I will do my best to answer it for you. Actually, I appreciate you for asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
I was brought up drenched in christianity. Saturated in it from all sides. It did not sit right with me, but I thought. I'm just a little kid, what do I know? The grown-ups are in charge and surely they wouldn't lead me astray. As I got older, still going along with the program, more and more did not jive. Plus, I saw hypocrisy all around me in christian circles. It REALLY began to get under my skin. Even make me rebellious towards it. NOT GOD, just the christian faith. I felt like God and I had a relationship but it was just cluttered by the ifs, what's, wherefores, and whys, involved in the faith. And the rituals, don't get me started. Communion tested my last nerve. Drink blood, Eat flesh, Yuk! My relationship was a more "direct line" and with less clutter.
It's not that I LIKE pointing out how silly christians can be. I'm waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded, it's just that nothing has been shown to me that doesn't come across as silly. It seems that christians take things too literally. Like small children, believing the most rediculus things without thinking it through.
I think I figured out that the Santa Clause story was bunk as early as 4 or 5. I don't remember ever believing in him really. I would think, OK IF there is a Santa, HOW in the world would he get his fat body down a skinny chimney , and HOW could he go to every house in the world in one night, and HOW could he carry everyone's toys in one bag, and HOW can he live for hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean he did get old, because he has white hair and everything, but why would his age freeze at that point? For my friends that DID believe in him, I just thought they were not very bright to over look all these inconsistencies.
Logic and reason has always been a part of my thinking process. You ask why I come to these boards. It's because I am wanting something to ring true and sensible. I am hoping that my parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, are NOT just totally gullible fools. My friend believes in a literal location called hell that has a devil running around. I like to think she is more intelligent than that. She is in other areas. If someone could show me that I am the one that is wrong, it would make me have more respect for these literal believers around me. So far, it hasn't been done, but I'm still seeking. I have to fight back the urge to say" What are you, CRAZY? Yeah Noah collected a pair of EVERY species of EVERY animal on the planet and put them all together in ONE big boat. AND out of the millions of people roaming the earth, only one family was worthy to survive this flood. That makes God seem pretty ruthless doesn't it? That was one of my first clues as a small child that made me sit up and take notice. I thought , THIS story does not add up. If this doesn't add up, how reliable are the rest of the stories.
Another reason I come on these boards is that I think that maybe I CAN be a help to someone else. People that have lost their way and feel alone. I feel like God is within them, if they will just try to recognize that. God is approachable and not some scarey,
intimidating authority sitting up on a throne. I don't believe that my loving god is capable of being angry and punishing like some of the bible stories tell us. If a person does not believe in God, I want them to know they it doesn't make me see them as "less than". I still believe good loving people are still good loving people. And I still believe they are in gods hands whether they know it or not.
I question the christian faith as opposed to any other faith based board because christianity is the only faith I have a background in.
I am glad you ask me this and I'll be happy to answer anything else you want to know.:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I think I better understand where you are coming from now and I respect your honesty.
I wasn't brought up in Christianity (I became a Christian at 26) so I am actually coming at the whole argument of its validity from that perspective. I do think that there is much shallow teaching around which seems to cast a long shadow on the validity of Christianity. Teaching that can really inhibit the answers to our most profound questions. Even as a Christian there were experiences for me early on that forced me to ask whether some of what I was being taught made sense. Many times I found that my gut was right and other times I think I resisted things that I later found to be true through experience. There are things about the bible that at times seem implausible because I cannot seem to wrap my mind around it... but perhaps that is where I must just concede that some things are beyond my grasp. What I have in mind is suffering. Now I believe that God brings suffering into our lives for good reasons but we do not always know what the good reasons are. Some people suffer so much in this life that it's hard to understand what good can come from it. But God's ways are different from ours and as much as I'd like to think I could have done it all differently than God, I know that I am just a creature and he is my creator... I must let God be God and be the creature he made me to be.
But as I read your response, I do wonder about something and I hope you might answer this as graciously as you did my other question before. You seem to very sure of what you believe but then at the same time you did say that you are "...waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded..." My question is that if you already know that it is silly stuff, why would you love to be persuaded otherwise? Why not just write it off that it is silly just like Santa Claus? I'm not being facetious, I really mean that. For example, I personally believe that UFOs and the search for extraterrestrial life is silly stuff. No matter how sincere people who follow that stuff come across, I just don't find it compelling. I really won't even waste my time thinking about it because I am convinced it is silly and I would not love to be persuaded... I ain't buying it. So when I think of what you are saying in the same light, I am perplexed by your decision to sort of hang in there that there might be some validity to Christianity, provided that you hear a compelling argument. In my case, I won't even hang around the UFO chatroom hoping that someone will offer a good argument as to why I should believe it. I just don't care all that much. Why do you care?
Thank you and I look forward to your response.
From thwe Bibles perspective the answer is no. We cannot gain salvation once and keep it forever. It's sort of like a grade. AT the beginning of the year we start with an A but we can't just slack the rest of the year and keep the A. We have to maintain good grades to keep our grade. We can't be saved and then go out and engage in all that is immoral and still go to heaven.
In the Lord's Prayer Jesus taught us to pray "lead us not into temptation".
How do you interpret that?
Fred
Do not let us be tempted by satan and his angels.
Pokerface5,
When we pray that we are asking God to "lead us not into temptation"
Fred
Again, fair question. You compared this to your UFO beliefs. By the way, I'm with you on that. Imagine if these ufo believers were not a group that you chose to join or not join. Imagine they were people in your family that you are close to. Or your best friends that you hang out with. That they were in your everyday circles. And they referenced ufos quite frequently in conversation. Or had their ufo book open to a certain passage laying on a table year round. And they expected you to go to ufo meetings every Sunday. They expected you to make sure your children get the ufo experience too. They truly believe that if you too did not believe in ufos that an eternal punishment awaited you. Would that get on your nerves? Would it cause you to ask them if they had some sort of proof or any thing that would make their ufo book valid? Oh yeah, they give you ufo books for xmas too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
I touched on this in my earlier post. I want to be convinced so that I can let go of my opinion about my friends and family that are so fundamental. I don't like thinking that they are so "child like" in their thinking. I want to respect them more because some things that come out of their mouths just IRK me so. "It ain't pretty" what I'm feeling toward them. I want to shake them and say, wake up and smell the coffee. I ask God for more tolerance and he may be giving jt to me, but I don't seem to be using it. :o So, I guess I am here for it to make sense and to matter. And to find a grain of proof that all my teaching, and memorizing, and bible study was not done in vain.
As far as the bible goes. I don't won't to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sure you can find words of comfort in there. There has to be something to it for it to have been around so long. I just don't find it interesting at all. When scripture is read in church, I find myself thinking, "what the he## does THAT mean? And..borrrring.
When I was engaged to my husband, we lived 4 hours apart. I would spend weekends with him or he would come and stay with me in my apartment. My mother found out what we were doing and had a hissy fit! You are not married! You are sinning! Your engagement ring means nothing, it is a joke now! I was so distraught and worried that I was going against God that I spent many hours going through the bible looking for something to make it ok that I was sleeping with my fiance. I went into a deep depression. I felt horrible. Now, the only difference in our relationship as far as commitment love, honor, respect toward each other was a signed sheet of paper vs not having signed a piece of paper, a marriage license. I did not figure it out until years later that we WERE married in Gods eyes. We already had what marriage is REALLY all about before we signed a marriage license. I was feeling all that shame and depression for nothing. I discovered this when I quit allowing other people to force their idea of morality on me and followed the truth of my own heart. btw, we will be married 29 years in Nov.
My mother believes that going to church is the be all and end all of a persons character. If someone does something bad, she will come back with, "oh I know they go to church." Like that is what defines then as a good person. Oh yeah, she had an affair on my dad, got pregnant and ended up marring the guy. They had a son together, he grew up to be a total loser so now, my mom has custody of his children. AND even as I type this right now, she allowed her grandson's girlfriend to stay over with him last night. He will be 18 this month.
What's wrong with this picture?? Does this shed anymore light on why I am the way I am?
Fred I have always admired this interpretation..Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Nazarene Transliteration of the Lord's Prayer
Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)
Since salvation is the work of God, "the Author and finisher of our faith" and salvation is God indwelling us. He is regenerating us through his holy spirit. We who are born again have been adopted by the Father. We could no more lose God being our spiritual father than we could deny the paternity test of our biological father.
I maybe could claim Donald Trump my father and get lines of credit and be treated like a v.i.p. for a little while but he isn't my dad and I will always drive an economical car and live in a humble abode. Many would like to claim God as their Father but where's the proof? When did they put off the old self, die to the old self, bury the old self, and then rise to walk in the newness of life as a child of the Father, certain of their heavenly home as they are certain of their heavenly Father. When they cry out in prayer do they address the father as "ABBA" which means Daddy? (Not that they HAVE to but is there relationship LIKE that?)
Homeslice,
AMEN to that! :)
We can, however reject our salvation just as we can reject our relationship and our inheritance from our paternal father, just as scripture says has happened a number of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Also keep in mind that God has only one begotten Son - we who are saved are adopted sons.
cozyk and Jakester,
I believe in UFO's because I have seen several.
However, I do not believe that they are from other worlds.
I just wonder what the heck they are. Each one is a mystery to me that needs to be solved if possible.
So in that way I know where you are coming from.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If you are born of the Spirit, reborn, born again, you cannot then reject God because you have God living in you. If one rejects God, it is the old man doing the rejecting and thus proving the old man hasn't died and therefore there has been no actual rebirth. Judas never received the Holy Spirit and though he lived closely with Jesus and "faked" following Him so well that when Jesus said, "one of you will betray me." The other disciples all looked around and wondered who it could be or even if it was they themselves!
The Bible says we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is "Gods' downpayment" so to speak on as proof that the Redeemer will redeem us.
Scripture says it differently. Scripture says that if you are a partaker of the Holy Spirit (same phrase use in 2 Peter 1:4 to describe the indwelling), and then turn away, then it is impossible to return because that would be crucifying Jesus again.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Heb 6:3-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
Judas could not have received the Holy Spirit in any case. The gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not happen until the ascension of Jesus into heaven. But the fact that Judas was faking it (which we agree upon), does not in any way prove that a person cannot be saved and subsequently reject their salvation.Quote:
If one rejects God, it is the old man doing the rejecting and thus proving the old man hasn't died and therefore there has been no actual rebirth. Judas never received the Holy Spirit and though he lived closely with Jesus and "faked" following Him so well that when Jesus said, "one of you will betray me." The other disciples all looked around and wondered who it could be or even if it was they themselves!
The Bible says we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is "Gods' downpayment" so to speak on as proof that the Redeemer will redeem us.
Scripture says that those who are saved are freed from bondage, and yet what you are saying is that those who are unsaved (described as slaves in scripture) are free to be able to receive Jesus as Saviour, and those who are saved (described as free or bondservants) have their freedom of decision removed.
T - that is too funny... although I bet Jeff has no idea what homeslice means, judging by his age... no offense, Jeff, but I think you are probably more a throwback to the James Dean or Bob Dylan era. Care to comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
homesell,
What makes you think that Judas never received the Holy Spirit?
Can you prove that?
Fred
Jakester - The old Jeff is 56. The new Jeff is will be 40 this summer. Old enough not to care if someone calls me a different name than what they know is my username.
Arcura - If Judas had received the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost. The Spirit isn't given like a revolving door where you are saved one day, lost the next, saved the next day, lost the next and so on. John 17:11-12 makes it clear what happened to Judas and why the others didn't fall away while Jesus was with them.
TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you. This is like some marquees in front of churches asking people to "try" Jesus as if he was a vitamin or some new therapy. People do not "try" the Lord. They may go to church and give money and do good works and think they are experiencing Christianity when all they are doing is what they see others who claim to be christians doing. And you're right. I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us. If God chose us, which he did, we cannot "opt out" from salvation. Anyone that "opts out" probably did choose God but God (for His own purposes) did not choose them.
Judas could not have received the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet given it to them:Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV
As to whether they could have ceased to be saved afterward, that is circular reasoning because scripture does not tell us anywhere that one who have received the Holy Spirit cannot subsequently reject Him.
Interesting - I did not focus on the word taste, but I notice that everyone who is challenged with this passage always gives that same response. First, note that the people who turned away from God had been partakers of the Holy Spirit, the same words used to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4.Quote:
TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you.
I have indeed studied this, and you will find that numerous times in scripture that we chose Him also. The truth is that it works both ways. To try to say that we have no decision is not scriptural and to say that it is all our decision is also unscriptural.Quote:
I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us.
Since scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world(which is obviously before we were ever born) How is it our choice. John the Baptist had no choice since he was given the holy spirit while still in his mothers womb. Any choice we think we have is because of God arranging our circumstances to bring us to him. I and many others look back at when we were saved and will tell you that if the circumstances that happened to them had happened in any other way or at any other time, they wouldn't have "made a decision" for Christ. I know not everyone thinks that but a good percentage do and possibly the others haven't really given it much thought.
Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.
I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?
JEFF,Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Homeslice was meant to be cute.. funny. Guess you have to get to know me. I agree with the term "tasted" being totally different from eating and digesting... you taste something to try it. I don't just "TASTE" cheesecake. I have "tasted" buttermilk... no thank YOU! ;)
P.S tj3, don't EVEN think about giving me a reddie for that... lest I come to one of your conferences and boo you... hee hee ( teasing;))
Cozyk,Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
I wish we agreed on everything.. but we don't. I agree with almost everything tj3 has said and so far with everything that Jakester has said... but when I stand before God, I will give an account for ME! It won't matter if I disagreed with anyone... what will matter to the LORD is what I did with truth. Did I blow it off and say... it doesn't work anyhow because someone who calls himself a Christian doesn't act like it? Please. The question is still there for YOU... what will YOU do the Christ? Stop looking at Christains! Or so "called christians" they are NOT the standard.
Let me tell you what... if I am the standard for my kids... than THEY are in BIG trouble... I try to be the standard but I still have this old FLESH. It still rears it's ugly head... and I have a choice.. go wth it or DIE to it. Most of the time... my new man wins... but not always.
cozyk - yes, it did... I've been away fishing this weekend and haven't had time to respond yet. No, I think you painted a very clear picture of where you are coming from and I appreciate your honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
To quote Oasis "there are many things that I, would like to say to you but I don't know how." I'd like to think that I could offer you some thoughts on the many things you spoke of but then the reality is that I know better... you've lived your life and have had your share of experiences that have brought you to the conclusions you've come to and that's not going to change. Some young guy like me is not going to "move" you and give you some compelling argument for anything because I think at this point in the game, you are pretty well dug in... if you know what I mean. In other words, you're mind is made up.
But all the same, I appreciate another human being engaging in self-reflective honesty about where she is coming from. To me I think that is rare because often times—in my experience—people feel that Christianity is silly and stupid but don't have the guts to on record about that fact. At least you did that.
Lastly, cozyk, the debate going on in this thread shows disagreements about interpretation but there are many people here who also agree on biblical matters... people who've never even met each other before and yet they share similar perspectives. To me, as much as there are differences to be observed with Christians and their understanding of the bible, etc. the fact that they have anything in common relative to faith is compelling. All I am saying is that if you are to be observationally honest, you will have to note that, yes, there have been disagreements here; but there have also been a lot of agreements. That is important.
It comes so naturally to us to be critical of each other... I don't think we need to work at that or be challenged to do better. But a great deal of character is required to point out the good in the things we observe because to not do so is unwise.
Respectfully.
Right Jakester. People should know that we don't stop loving someone just because they disagree. I can't imagine anyone being closer to each other than my wife and I are to each other yet we certainly disagree on different doctrinal issues. Not the essentials of the faith but the peripheral stuff that is open to interpretation. The truth is, not every doctrine is clear cut one way or the other and no one person has a corner on the truth or is right about every or even most, things.
ClassyT - no offense was taken. I still don't have a clue as to what homeslice means which is probably why I didn't get the joke.
This is what I spoke about earlier. When we start making it a "before" or "after" after, we heffectively say that God is trapped in the timeline along with His creation. But God is outside of time, so He did not do anything before or after us. It is like Jesus said - "Before Abraham was, I* AM". Jesus, being God, is outside of time, and though Abraham was in the past from our perspective, for Jesus it is the present because there is no timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
So did God make the decision before us, or after us? Neither. The interaction between when we made our decision and when God chose us is something that we cannot possibly comprehend because cannot understand what it is like to be outside of time. But what we do know is that God chose us, and we chose Him. Both are scriptural.
Tess,Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I would not dare give you a reddie for that! But you are welcome to come to a conference. We have a smaller 1 day soming up in a couple of weeks on cults and false teachings.
As for taste, let's see if your usage of the word taste holds us.
Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:52 - Speaks of tasting "death". Is it referring to dying or not?
Heb 2:9 says that Jesus tasted death - did He die or not?
Lastly, whatever we know of having a relationship with God is only a taste of what it will be in eternity.
Tom
Yes, God is outside of time. He is not on a linear time continuum. His creation is as all of matter is subject to time. A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when. Just as in creation it says on the first day, on the second day, etc. God was not on a timeline then or now but we are still told when he did things. Thanks for your input.
We agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
We agree.Quote:
His creation is as all of matter is subject to time.
Think of it this way.Quote:
A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when.
Draw a line on a page of paper. The far left end of the line is creation. The far right end is the final judgment and the start of our life with God in eternity. The middle of the line is the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross. Our lives start and end at points along this line. We live on that timeline. We can look at what is to the left as having happened and as being behind us in time; and what is on the right hand as being that which is to happen.
When we discuss salvation, we speak of what happened before and what happened after. We know no other framework of existence. But God looks at events in time the way that we look down on that time. He sees eternity past and he sees eternity future all at the same time. He see the time before the creation of the world, the time at the cross, the time when we were born, when we we received Christ as Saviour, the time when we will die, and the final judgment all at the same "time" just as we see that whole timeline.
Thus when we read that He chose us before the foundations of the earth, that is right, just as it is right when scripture speaks of us choosing Him.
From God's perspective, did the decision of His to choose us happen before or after our decision to accept Christ as Saviour? No, He sees them both occurring at the same "time". Notice that we cannot discuss this without talking about time before we cannot comprehend being outside of time.
It is true that God chose us before the foundation of the world. Just as it is true that Chose God:
Josh 24:21-23
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!" 23 Now therefore," he said, "put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD God of Israel."
NKJV
How do we reconcile these two things?
We know that God predestined us, and we know that God chose us base upon His foreknowledge?
1 Peter 1:1-2
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
NKJV
How do we reconcile these two things?
In both cases, we cannot reconcile them. We know both are true, and we know that both, from God's perspective are happening before Him even now, as He looks down upon the whole timeline.
homesell,
I understand what you are saying.
You are quite clear, but I still believe that under certain circumstances a person can loose their salvation.
God chose Judas to be a follower of Jesus and he was but his over zealousness for a conquering king was his undoing.
Where Judas receive the Holy Spirit or not I do not know, but I suspect that you might be right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The word "lose" typically means to have misplaced something, not knowing when you lost it or where. Applied to salvation, this wcould mean that a person ceases to be saved without knowing it. Scripture is quite clear that that cannot happen, for example:
John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV
Scripture does say that there are those who fall from the faith, and in that case, they must knowingly choose to leave their salvation. They did not "lose" it.
Tom
Tj3,
I have had my say on this matter and earlier on listed how a person can loses there salvation.
I intend to stand by what I believe the bible and Jesus tells me.
Thanks anyway.
Fred
Fred,
You should always stand by what you believe the Bible and Jesus tells you - but continue in looking at things from a different perspective. "One man sharpens another as iron sharpens iron". These questions and answers helps us to strengthen and clarify what we believe about things the Bible isn't clear on and, as TJ3 pointed out there are paradox in the Bible. Like we are pre-destined AND we choose, like Jesus created his own Mama, He gave life to those that killed him, Very God lives inside us yet we still find ourselves sinning either in thought word or deed.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Can you show me in scripture where it says that a person can be saved and unknowingly become unsaved?
Tj3,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Do you feel Paul's word of the fear in those who could be beguiled, and yet were as chaste virgin to Christ is an example. According to what is written all are saved by the grace of God if they believe, all were set free from the bondage of sin or the curse in which Adam caused. Christ was sent so that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Not accepting Christ is a rejection of salvation brought to us.
2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
For the grace of God comes to every man
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
So deception from His grace that brought salvation is likely for those who don't deny themselves, and follow Christ in righteousness. This can be consider a double minded person wanting to live their life in lust and sin, but feel they are saved by Christ because they believe in HIM. Where faith without works is dead.
Or someone that believes in Christ yet their are beguiled by enticing good appearance of false teaching. Unknowingly destroyed by lack of knowledge of the truth, and not hearing HIS voice which is the simplicity of Christ.
Oh.. it is a "urban" term... meaning a homie... or a friend. It is silly really but it was meant in a good spirit because I found myself agreeing with you. So I called you homeslice. Besides my boys come in calling me that and asking "homeslice whats for dinner". It is funny, stupid and silly and it always makes me smile.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
I thought a lot about this. Jesus did taste death but he didn't stay dead... he "tasted" it but was alive the third day and alive forever more. Not at ALL like when we die... is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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