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On the contrary, the fact that Satan tempted Jesus shows that Satan believed Jesus' might succumb to temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The difference is this. You might want to tempt me to eat "caviar". However, I've tasted caviar and I detest the taste. Therefore, no matter how much you tempt me with caviar, I won't be tempted.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it does. And Scripture also says:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So, Christ was tempted. But Christ did not sin. We can look at the agony in the Garden for more clues:
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Here we see that Jesus Christ had a will of His own. But He subdued His Will to the Father's.
We also see here that He was tempted to do His own Will to the extent that He asked the Father's permission to do so. Apparently, the Father did not grant the request.
So, in my opinion, Jesus could be tempted, but because He is God, He could not fall.
Sincerely,
In the discussion at hand, no, it doesn't make sense to me, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Heb. 4:15 tells us that Jesus was tempted in all points like we are, but that He did not sin. The temptations here had to be a solicitation to evil, otherwise the "yet without sin" has no meaning.
In an earlier post you said that we may never know why Satan tempted Jesus. The answer is not that difficult to understand.
According to the Bible, scripture cannot be broken. If Satan could break the Word of God in any point, he (Satan) could claim victory and avoid being sent to the Lake of Fire. When Satan tempted Jesus, he was fighting for his life. Satan lost, praise God!!
That just means that you are looking at Jesus from Satan's point of view. I agree that Satan thought that Jesus could succumb to sin. Therefore, he acted in accordance with his belief and tempted Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
However, from our point of view, Jesus is God and beyond sin. Therefore God is made flesh and like us in every BUT SIN. This is why Scripture says:
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
However, Satan does not know God as we do, that is why Scripture says:
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They know He exists but do not know that He is ALL GOOD.
God is all good.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is all good.
Therefore Jesus can not sin.
Sir Nitpick sez:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Um, no. In its historical context, this verse was addressing a fairly new heresy that said Jesus wasn't really man, he only seemed to be. When John said "has come in the flesh" he's saying Jesus was truly human and truly God at the same time. That doesn't really mean "just like us."
I sez: oh, shut up, Nitpick!
I see you use a tongue-in-cheek method to point out the fact that spiritually, Jesus certainly is NOT like us.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I think you got that I am saying that he was actually a human being in His incarnation, and therefore overcame sin while He was in the flesh. Since He has sent the HOLY GHOST to us, to be with us and within us, that makes us able to overcome sin while in OUR flesh.
Sir Nitpick is my alter ego who doesn't know when to shut his yap!Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I'm divided on the question of whether Jesus could have sinned or not. I can see good points and bad points in both sides. I therefore take shelter in my all-time favorite answer:
Idunno.
De Maria, I think you are missing something in the incarnation.
God the Son became Man. In doing so, He temporarialy gave up the attributes of Deity, that is, He was no longer omnipresent. This is obvious.
What is less obvious is that He also gave up omniscience, and omnipotence.
Jesus consistently said that He was giving the Father's words and doing the Father's works.
Peter tells us that he was a MAN full of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said at the start of His ministry that the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him.
If He had the attributes of Deity within Himself at that time, He did not need the Holy Spirit to empower Him.
He became a man so that we could becme the sons of God, and with the giving of the Holy Ghost on that day of Pentecost, the same power that Jesus relied on become available to the most humble believer.
galveston, I think Part of what you are saying is in Phi. 2:5-8 and
Col. 1:17-20
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Hi Maggie and Galveston,Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Colossians 1:17-20 (King James Version)
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The same author says both that Jesus emptied Himself and that the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus. The same author also says that Jesus was made perfect by suffering on the Cross.
So, I don't try to interpret this set of facts myself. They appear contradictory. Therefore I go by the teaching of the Church through the centuries. And the Church has consistently taught that Jesus could not sin because He is God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I go with the part of what Jakester said in a very early post in this thread (my bolding) --
...was it possible for Jesus to sin? I think that since the opportunities to sin for Jesus were presented through the trials of Satan, the "possibility" for Jesus to sin must have been a reality...if not, why would the temptations of Satan to Christ have even occurred? I think it was possible for Jesus to sin but if he had sinned, the rest of God's story would not be what it is...he would have told a different story.
Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.
And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him.
Those Scriptures are not contridictory at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Think about the role that the Holy Ghost played in the life of Jesus and you should be able to see how Jesus could be actually a man and yet have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him.
The Scriptures do say that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure.
King James Version--Phi 2:7 "but made himself of no reputation..."
This phrase in Greek is Kenoo, or literally, "he empitied Himself."
When Jesus came as a Man, He was still divine. He emptied Himself
Of His divine powers.The implication of the "doctrine of kenosis"
Are huge, because this means that everything Jesus did, the miracles,
The prayers He prayed, the teaching He gave was not done in His own
Power. Jesus healed and prayed and taught through the power of
Holy Spirit as He followed the Father's directives. I did not
Comperhend that Jesus came to earth and empitied Himself of His
Divine abilities, which means everything Jesus did, He did as a man
Just like us. Before He did anything, Jesus had to be obedient to the
Father, pray to put Himself on line to be empowered by the Spirit,
Or nothing would happen. That's why He said, "Of my own self, I can do nothing" {John 5:30] and neither can we. This has changed how I think
About the things Jesus did, no big deal to hear Jesus walked on water,
This was irrelevant to me. But He was doing this in the
Power we all can have, the Holy Spirit. This is an example for us.
Jesus could have sinned, and things could have been different, but
I know He did not because things would be different today if He did.
Phi. 2:7, 'And took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in
The likeness of men." This is the mind that's to be in us, where we
Empty ourselves of our rights, and become servants or slaves of God.
Maggie
I didn't say they were. I said they appear contradictory. Two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Ah, yes. But Galveston, I believe the Church. And the Church says that Jesus is fully God and fully man and that He resurrected Himself of His own power.Quote:
Think about the role that the Holy Ghost played in the life of Jesus and you should be able to see how Jesus could be actually a man and yet have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him.
The Scriptures do say that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure.
And the Church teaches that Jesus Divinity can't be separated from His humanity.
Phil 2:7-8 Douay Rheims
[7] But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. [8] He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:7-8 (King James Version)
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
If we go by the adage that Scripture interprets Scripture and read the next line, I believe the meaning is clear. Jesus HUMBLED Himself. He did not leave His Divinity behind. He is both man and God but He took on the role of a man. But since He is also God, Jesus can not sin.
Because He was a man, He could sin. Otherwise, His life here on earth and His sacrifice on the cross were pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Philippians 2:7-8 (King James Version)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I think "emptied Himself" simply means "humbled Himself".
I also believe He did everything as a man just like us. But He didn't empty Himself of His Divinity.Quote:
The implication of the "doctrine of kenosis"
Are huge, because this means that everything Jesus did, the miracles,
The prayers He prayed, the teaching He gave was not done in His own
Power. Jesus healed and prayed and taught through the power of
Holy Spirit as He followed the Father's directives. I did not
Comperhend that Jesus came to earth and empitied Himself of His
Divine abilities, which means everything Jesus did, He did as a man
Just like us.
You are not under the impression, I hope, that while Jesus is Divine He can be disobedient to the Father?Quote:
Before He did anything, Jesus had to be obedient to the
Father,
Because God is a Trinity. Jesus is always accompanied by the Trinity. He is never alone.Quote:
pray to put Himself on line to be empowered by the Spirit,
Or nothing would happen. That's why He said, "Of my own self, I can do nothing" {John 5:30]
No we can't. But for different reasons. Have you not heard that "in Him we live, move and are"?Quote:
and neither can we.
I disagree. Jesus could not have sinned. He has always been God.Quote:
This has changed how I think
About the things Jesus did, no big deal to hear Jesus walked on water,
This was irrelevant to me. But He was doing this in the
Power we all can have, the Holy Spirit. This is an example for us.
Jesus could have sinned, and things could have been different, but
I know He did not because things would be different today if He did.
Those are great goals. I'm not kidding. Catholicism teaches that one can seek the Goodness of God because it is worthwhile. And God promised it to those who obey. And God keeps His promises. Therefore, to look at oneself as a servant who works to obtain the promises is just fine.Quote:
Phi. 2:7, 'And took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in
The likeness of men." This is the mind that's to be in us, where we
Empty ourselves of our rights, and become servants or slaves of God.
Maggie
And Catholicism teaches that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Therefore to seek the Goodness of God because one consider himself God's slave is equally good.
But there is one which excels all others. To seek God because one loves God. This excels over all other ways and makes one a child of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Why? He showed us the way to heaven. Obedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
None of the verses you posted say we are saved by obedience. We are saved only by Jesus' blood, and not by any activity that we do. Eph.2:8,9 says grace is a gift of God and not of our own doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I believe it was to show Satan's arrogance and God's power over Satan. He knew who Jesus was. The Son of God. But still believed that he could cause Him to sin. But the Godman proved that Satan could not tempt Him.
You know, temptation is a funny word. For example, you can tempt me with some hot tea. The kind they give you at Chinese restaurants. But I am not tempted by hot tea. I find it disgusting.
So, Satan may have tempted Jesus in the sense that he offered something to Jesus. But Jesus was not tempted by the offers.
Hebrews says "in everyway but sin".Quote:
Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Well that's true. But that doesn't mean that Jesus could have committed sin. And in the end, the proof is in the pudding. Jesus did not sin. So the question is moot.Quote:
And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him.
Sincerely,
So, then everyone is saved. Party and do what you want. You don't have to obey God to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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