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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

The difference is that you claim that these opinions are God's, not yours.

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I don't what you are referring to here. I think that what started this line of thought is getting distorted.

What started it was a question regarding why I chose my canon of the Bible. I said that I didn't - God decided what the canon of the Bible would be.

Now before you go on criticizing, you may want to step back and get your facts straight.

ordinaryguy,
You have an interesting point of view regarding Tj3, but I also believe that the biblical canon was inspired by God.
Praise God that we still have His Word yet today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

ordinaryguy,
You have an interesting point of view regarding Tj3, but I also believe that the biblical canon was inspired by God.

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Well, that's interesting, because I find your point of view regarding Tj3 interesting as well. What's interesting to me is that you think God made His choices and decisions about the canon known through the ecclesiastical workings and councils of the Roman Catholic Church, whereas Tj seems to think He conveyed them to "the body of believers", but won't say exactly when or how. Isn't that interesting?

Personally, I don't think God gives two hoots about the Bible. I think it's a human creation from beginning to end, just like all the other holy books in the world, and I mean that in the most complimentary way. I think all such books are valuable for the insight they give into the tremendous variety of ways humans and their cultures have conceived of and related themselves to the world of Spirit. But reading them won't convince a skeptic that such a world exists, and it doesn't necessarily connect us to that world.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Well, that's interesting, because I find your point of view regarding Tj3 interesting as well. What's interesting to me is that you think God made His choices and decisions about the canon known through the ecclesiastical workings and councils of the Roman Catholic Church, whereas Tj seems to think He conveyed them to "the body of believers", but won't say exactly when or how. Isn't that interesting?

Personally, I don't think God gives two hoots about the Bible. I think it's a human creation from beginning to end, just like all the other holy books in the world, and I mean that in the most complimentary way. I think all such books are valuable for the insight they give into the tremendous variety of ways humans and their cultures have conceived of and related themselves to the world of Spirit. But reading them won't convince a skeptic that such a world exists, and it doesn't necessarily connect us to that world.

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Ordinaryguy,

You are certainly entiled to your opinion. Just out of curiousity, do you really think Fred and Tj3's different point of view is "interesting"? Because I find your so called interest "interesting'. My Point is....what is it to you? really if you don't believe the Bible and think God doesn't give "two hoots" one way or another? I guess i don't trust your motives and I don't get your point?

Personally, and i'm just gonna throw this in since we are giving our OPINIONS so freely here... i'd say you are WRONG ...many a skeptic has changed their minds if they have a open heart. And incidently, when man uses these two words "I think" when they are referring to God without being able to back it up with something other than their infinite wisdom... it means NOTHING... just another ordinary guy... thinkin. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Just out of curiousity, do you really think Fred and Tj3's different point of view is "interesting"?

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Oh, you bet I do! It's so interesting to me how two devoutly religious people can agree so fervently about one thing (God decided which books belong in the Bible) and still disagree so vehemently about another closely related thing (God communicated His decision to the world via the Catholic Church). See how interesting that is?

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I guess I don't trust your motives and I don't get your point?

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It's OK, I wouldn't really expect you to. My comments are really for the benefit of readers who may have been pummeled, as I was, with "The Bible says" and "God says", and may be starting to wonder, "Who says?". I want to encourage them to keep asking that question.

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And incidentally, when man uses these two words "i think" when they are referring to God without being able to back it up with something other than their infinite wisdom... it means NOTHING... just another ordinary guy... thinkin.

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I don't claim to be anything other than an ordinary thinking guy. If what I think means nothing to you, you can pass it by. I'm OK with that.

ordinaryguy,
Thanks for your opinion.
Of course I do not agree.
In reality, though Tj3 and I do disagree about some things, we do agree very much on almost all Christian issues.
Christians have far more in common that not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ordinaryguy,

I have no problem with you questioning things and even challenging others to do so ( on the appropriate thread)... but be honest about it. You aren't here to give insight and answer questions seriously... you are here to be a critic.. What you are really "interested" in demeaning people of faith because we may disagree on issues from time to time, perhaps you find it interesting but I tend to think you find it amusing... am I wrong?
Ordinaryguy, I want to know GOD's thoughts and I believe he has revealed them to us in His word. That doesn't mean I can't think for myself or that I am Less than because I have faith.
I've been "pummeled" from time to time with "thus saith the Lord" and then found out he didn't say it at all. SO! I guess I'm not a giver upper. Men will fail but The real truth of God is out there, if you want to know what it is, pick up the Bible and ask God to help you. If you Don't... I will ask again? What is your motive? What is your point? To enlighten us with your thoughts? Now see , I'm finding that NOT interesting... go figure?

classyT,
I agree with you on this.
You asked some good questions.
Fred

Cozyk,

You are entitled you your opinions as well. But Check out where we are posting... it is in a Christianity board. If you come here you should expect us to point you to the Bible. Your reddie was inappropriate as usual. I don't go to the other boards and preach the Bible... it is in CHRISTIANITY we have no other authority as a follower of God's word. Where should I send someone? OK lets think this out slowly... I'm a christian, answering a comment on a Christian board... hmmmm? If ordinaryguy didn't want an answer from a Christian perhaps he should exit this board and find someone that can give him the answer he needs. As for me and my house... we read the Word and I direct others to do so because my post was on a CHRISTIAN board. Not even a "religious" board... get my point?And incidentally, you are basing your opinion on WHAT?

classyT
You hit the nail on the head.
This is a Christian Board.
Over the years I have often wondered why a Christian board attracts unbelievers who really are not interested in trying to understand Christianity.
Some of those folks have even been proclaimed atheists or agnostics who firmly state they will stay that way.
So why come here at all I often wonder?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

To belittle, make fun, get their kicks, enlighten us with ordinary thoughts, some are bitter and some are curious but too ashamed to admit it the list goes on and on. I just wish one of them would ask a question and with a open heart and receive a Godly answer from the Bible. We are all more than happy to respond in love.

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Originally Posted by classyT

To belittle, make fun, get their kicks, enlighten us with ordinary thoughts, some are bitter and some are curious but too ashamed to admit it the list goes on and on. I just wish one of them would ask a question and with a open heart and receive a Godly answer from the Bible. we are all more than happy to respond in love.

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I agree wholeheartedly. Christians respect their right to believe as they wish - why will they not reciprocate? If they have some real and serious questions, then it would be great to have a opportunity to address them in a atmosphere of mutual personal respect.

classyT,
Yes we are happy to respond with love, but sometimes it's tough love.
I've been thinking that some of them are here for reasons that they themselves don't know; that is that they are here because the Holy Spirit it moving them into the Christian information area.
Others, however, I think are here just because they need someone to tell their beliefs to.
And then there may be those who are purposely looking for a fight.
Them folks are few but during my 76 years pon thei earth I have seen 6 or 7 of them.
So it goes.
I may be wrong about the above but maybe not.
Fred

Tj3,
I agree with this that you said, "If they have some real and serious questions, then it would be great to have a opportunity to address them in a atmosphere of mutual personal respect."
Fred

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Originally Posted by classyT

The real truth of God is out there, if you want to know what it is, pick up the Bible and ask God to help you.

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This is a pretty fundamental difference between us. I don't think the real truth of God is "out there", I think it's "in here", and that's where I've been able to find what I know of it.

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If you Don't... I will ask again? What is your motive? What is your point? To enlighten us with your thoughts? Now see , I'm finding that NOT interesting... go figure?

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And I will answer as I did before,

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My comments are really for the benefit of readers who may have been pummeled, as I was, with "The Bible says" and "God says", and may be starting to wonder, "Who says?". I want to encourage them to keep asking that question.

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And,

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If what I think means nothing to you, you can pass it by. I'm OK with that.

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AND.. I will ask once again... why are in answering Christianity questions when you don't believe in it? Do you hit the other religious boards too with your wisdom? Or are we just LUCKY... lol

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

This is a pretty fundamental difference between us. I don't think the real truth of God is "out there", I think it's "in here", and that's where I've been able to find what I know of it.

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With this you appear to be touching on something with which I have a long-standing interest (in a non-pejorative sense of "interest"), and I wonder if you'd be willing to say more about what you have in mind with the contrast between "out there" and "in here". Given the reception you seem to be getting I will, of course, quite understand it you'd rather not expand on what you've said. But if you are willing, I'd like very much to hear more about how you think about this: what "in here" refers to and what is to be found there; whether there are things to be found "in here" that aren't available "out there".

This isn't intended as a challenge, nor to set-up a challenge. I don't see that you've said anything hostile to Christianity. In fact, it looks like you may be giving voice to something that a good many Christians feel (or, at least, something I've often heard said). I'd be grateful if you would be willing to say more about how you think about these matters.

The real truth of God is in his Word and certainly we can see his work through his creation and life in general.

No one is suggesting he is HOSTILE, I don't think he respects it though. That is MY OPINION and I get it from his comments. I think Your discussion with oridinaryguy is fine and dandy. AND if you want HIM to enlighten YOU with his wisdom again, that is great. BUT I think it needs to be on a religious discussion board... not a Christianity board where people come for Christian answers.

Class, Tom, and Arcura,
I can speak for myself and possibly even more Godly people as to why we come onto the christian board. I am one of a large group that believe in God. Even believe that Jesus could be "the son" of God. Aren't we all the son or daughter of God? Anyway, I love God, honor Him, worship Him, pray to Him, and live for Him. I consider him my father, my friend, and it is His presence in my heart that gives me comfort. Knowing that I am never alone and neither is anyone else on this planet. We all have 100% of His attention as if we are his only child, but he gives that 100% to every soul.

I believe that under the umbrella of christianity is a huge population of worshipers that feel as I do. We have been turned off by the fundamentalist that wave the bible at you as they tell you how unworthy they are. There was a preacher in my childhood that actually held his worn bible, waved it at us as if he were wagging his finger, yelling, crying, getting all red in the face and making us all feel like unworthy pieces of you know what.

My belief in God takes a different path. I believe he loves us and wants us all to feel cherished, special, empowered, confident, and worthy. To bring others to Him by way of kindness and compassion. Not to ever use the bible as an instrument of fear or punishment, or to substitute it for your conscience. With an open heart, your conscience is the voice of God telling you the difference between right and wrong. It is a direct line to God's guidance. It is the ultimate guide book. I and many others adhere to that guide book as we have found the bible become less and less relavant in our personal relationship with our God.

What I am always trying to convey is that you can have this relationship with God even if you have never opened a bible. God is not in there. He is in our soul, our spirit and our essence. Living for God and living a godly life is easy because it is what you want to do, not what you have to do to gain your ticket to heaven. It transends any verse in the bible that may or may not have been God's original intention. Remember man wrote it. Not God.

Classy, I hit the disagree button on your post because... I disagreed. The bible is not the only path to God. I did not find Him in there but I found Him.

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Originally Posted by classyT

The real truth of God is in his Word and certainly we can see his work thru his creation and life in general.

No one is suggesting he is HOSTILE, i don't think he respects it though. That is MY OPINION and i get it from his comments. I think Your discussion with oridinaryguy is fine and dandy. AND if you want HIM to enlighten YOU with his wisdom again, that is great. BUT i think it needs to be on a religious discussion board...not a Christianity board where people come for Christian answers.

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I'm not looking for enlightenment. I'm asking a fellow human being who, whether he and I agree or not, appears to be thoughtful and to have given the matter considerable attention, to share his thoughts. Whether he is hostile to Christianity is something I cannot discern from his posts. Maybe he is. Maybe he is hostile, but not toward Christianity but to some of the things people say about Christianity. Maybe he's even hostile to some of the things I have said. I don't know and I don't much care. I don't think he should have to jump through hoops or otherwise prove himself to you or me or anyone else in order to register his views about the matters under discussion here. Whether he respects "it" or not isn't really my business. And he's said some things that I find interesting and about which I'd like to hear more if he's willing to expand on what he's already said.

At any rate, I am not in a position to speak for ordinaryguy. And I'm pretty confident he doesn't need me to speak for him.