Ask Me Help Desk - What Scripture verse show that Peter was the leader Part (4)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

To purge sin.

Jesus did that on the cross, by Himself.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
There ARE several passages in the Holy Bible that indicate the existence of Purgatory.
They are as follows......
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins.
If you haven't does so yet, make a note of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Are you still copying and pasting off that website without giving proper credit?

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom.

Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Quote:

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Hence, purgatory. When this topic was first brought up I indicated that it should be saved for another thread. Please feel free to start one. Please stick to the topic.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Hence, purgatory. When I this topic was first brought up I indicated that it should be saved for another thread. Please feel free to start one. Please stick to the topic.

How you claim it is purgatory when Jesus says that Himself already purged (past tense) those who are saved of their sins on the cross is beyond me.

I do not care about starting another thread. I am just responding to the issue that was raised on here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
The purpose of Purgatory is in its name.
Though out sins may be forgiven we still have a sinful nature to sin again.

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

It is the place where our sinful nature is purged.
Folks there leave purified so they can enter heaven.
You might think of it as a stage stop on the way to the heavenly kindom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Scripture tells us we have purified the soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

Purgatory:

I would appreciate it if you would repost your comments at: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1628562

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Purgatory:

I would appreciate it if you would repost your comments at: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1628562

JoeT

Understood yet difficult to do with Fred's posting in this thread..

Sorry Joe I certainly did not mean to side track your thread. Just answered the postings that were being discussed. This thread has been a whirlwind of discussion even with you and I talking of praying to the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Understood yet difficult to do with Fred's posting in this thread..

Sorry Joe I certainly did not mean to side track your thread. Just answered the postings that were being discussed. This thread has been a whirlwind of discussion even with you and I talking of praying to the dead.

It's OK - just thought it would be best. Your comments will likely get a better viewing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Scripture tells us we have purified the soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

My response is at this link, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1629751

JoeT

sndbay,
Joe gave you and excellent response to that.
Fred