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Originally Posted by De Maria

to teach us the Word of God:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

De Maria

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You left out the important part...

Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Note also it continues: Hebrew 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I'm not following how this proves or disproves purgatory???De Maria

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Nor do I, they were your questions...

As for purgatory? it is not in scripture. And why is scripture writtten? John 20:13 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We have been foretold all things.. Including all about false teaching.

2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

There is much to read concerning false teaching.. All in the Bible from The Word of God

Deu 32:31 For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine [is] the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu32:34 [Is] not this laid up in store with me, [and] sealed up among my treasures?
Deu 32:35 To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.
Deu 32:37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,
Deu 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

You left out the important part...

Hebrews 13:7-8 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Note also it continues: Hebrew 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein




Nor do I, they were your questions...

As for purgatory? it is not in scripture. And why is scripture writtten? John 20:13 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We have been foretold all things.. Including all about false teaching.

.........

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Fascinating!

And, as we have seen, to defend his views on purgatory De Maria has had to claim:

A)Those who have it well within their power to help the poor, but don't are in God's grace and friendship.

B)God destroyed the earth with a flood to kill off those who where actually in God's grace and friendship - not the wicked as is commonly believed.

C)Those who get a reward for their works that don't burn in the final judgment and those who don't actually get the same thing!

Rob

A) They are still in God's grace BUT the Bible says while the works they did do may be burned up they will be saved.

B.) Never really thought about that one would like to see what De Maria uses to back it up

C.) They get the same thing --Salvation BUT the ones whose works survive also get one of the five crowns I posted on previous pages.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

A) They are still in God's grace BUT the Bible says while the works they did do may be burned up they will be saved.

B.) Never really thought about that one would like to see what De Maria uses to back it up

C.) They get the same thing --Salvation BUT the ones whose works survive also get one of the five crowns I posted on previous pages.

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A) He's claiming that the rich man went to purgatory (hence in God's grace and friendship), which means he'll go to heaven eventually. I don't see how you can get that from reading the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

B) I never thought I would see someone take that position! :D

C) Yes, the test of the works determines who gets a reward in heaven.

It's been a fun thread! Thanks for the help!

Rob

A.) yep me either. I really wonder where De Marie figures the rich man was in a place to make it to heaven rather than that he was in hell because it is very clear to see he is not in some holding place to eventually make it to heaven.
B.) I would love to see the reasoning.
C.) yep the crowns through the judgment of the righteous no sin/purgatory about it.

Maybe De Marie can start a new post proving Lazarus in purgatory rather than hell

The Word of God was spoken.. Praise God, for none other rules over His Kingdom..

Judgement remains in the hands of Jesus, so to judge what happens to those on one side of the gulf to the other, remains known to Christ on judgement day. Better for us to follow Christ' then to know of judgement.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Why:
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Note:
Hebrews 10: 16- 17 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

[BHebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God;Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let no man tells you differently from this scripture. Christ is worthy of all. Chirst is the high priest, appointed by God. We as His children must stand firm in love for Our Father, Son and Holy Spirit with all praise and glory forever...

Again How does that prove or disprove purgatory? Other than the Heb 10:19

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Again How does that prove or disprove purgatory? Other than the Heb 10:19

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In recognizing what is taught and what is intended by the Catholic church in their belief of purgatory.

But they take it to mean that they are the one that has it right on how they interpret so just quoting verses isn't going to change their mind since they see it in ''their'' context. Just like I can not get it across to De Marie that there is traditions of man and traditions of God using the verses.

Exactly!

It's tradition as interpreted and defined by Rome, and the scriptures as interpreted by Rome. Essentially, it's a one legged - three legged stool! In the end it's Sola-Roma. :rolleyes:

Rob

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

But they take it to mean that they are the one that has it right on how they interpret so just quoting verses isn't going to change their mind since they see it in ''their'' context. Just like I can not get it across to De Marie that there is traditions of man and traditions of God using the verses.

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Nohelp4u, okay and I understand your intention to help. It is a pure heart of love. But just as you have made your choices in life, they too made their own. It is an important part of our existence here on earth. God didn't make us all like zombins that walk the earth and say God I love thee.. We have the choice... God created us for His pleasure, and loves each of us. And he gifted each of us.

Note: 1 Corinthains 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Reading all of the verses of 1 Corinthians 12 can further example what God's Will intends.

A pure heart in prayer, that would ask that God's Will be done, is humble and shows love. So if it is God's Will, that they will see, they will indeed see.


Everyday satan attempts to deceive. And there are many that can be deceived with twistings of scripture.

2 Corinthians 2 :10-11 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

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Thanks for the question rob.

In case I missed it earlier in the thread, here is the OFFICIAL definition of what an induldgence is:

An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.
From the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law (Can. 992)

You can see a limited preview of the Manual on Indulgences here.

"(S)cripture clearly does support the practice of indulgences, and that the doctrine has roots both in Tradition and Scripture. This begs the question of who actually possesses authority in the Church, and the ability to properly interpret the Bible. This ultimately is the matter which crystallized the Reformers in separation from the historic Church of Christ, serving to show, in miniature, the effects of the Protestent Revolt by the study of this one doctrine....

...From the power of the keys and the sacrament of Penance did the Church receive from her bridegroom the authority to remit punishments, both temporal and eternal. As Cardinal Fisher noted, "Faith, whether in Purgatory or in Indulgences, was not so necessary in the Primitive Church as now. For then love so burned, that every one was ready to meet death for Christ. Crimes were rare, and such as occurred were avenged by the great severity of the Canons." In her solicitude to keep all her children from hell, the Church relented upon the canonical penances, which kept some souls from the sacraments. Thus, she recognized her ability to apply the merits of Jesus and the saints to fill in and remit punishments. The works permitted were abused, and this was regrettable. But Indulgences stand today as a part of the deposit of the faith, and a valuable avenue for all Christians who avail themselves of them. Truly, by practice of indulgences and a study of their developments, one can draw closer to Our Savior, and see His hand working in love for our union with Him."
-by Paul S. Czarnota
catholic.net

Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Thanks for the question rob.

"(S)cripture clearly does support the practice of indulgences, and that the doctrine has roots both in Tradition and Scripture. This begs the question of who actually possesses authority in the Church, and the ability to properly interpret the Bible. This ultimately is the matter which crystallized the Reformers in separation from the historic Church of Christ, serving to show, in miniature, the effects of the Protestent Revolt by the study of this one doctrine...

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There is not only nothing in scripture supporting such a practice, but indeed it is a completely unnecessary practice since you are either on to way to hell not having received Christ as Saviour, or if you have received Christ as Saviour, then he has paid the price for ALL of your sins (1 John 1:9 and others). The Roman Church is therefore claiming power and authority that is does not have.

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... From the power of the keys and the sacrament of Penance did the Church receive from her bridegroom the authority to remit punishments, both temporal and eternal.

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Jesus retained those keys as shown by the fact that He still has them in the Book of Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

There is not only nothing in scripture supporting such a practice....

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That's a matter of opinon...

... and I'm not sure why you feel that you have the right to interpret scripture for me or anyone else?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

That's a matter of opinon...

....and I'm not sure why you feel that you have the right to interpret scripture for me or anyone else?

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No it isn't. Either it is in scripture or it is not.

You clearly have not been reading my posts. Neither you nor I nor the pope nor any man has the right to interpret scripture PERIOD!

2 Peter 1:20
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

This is the problem. People think that they, or their church or whoever has the right to interpret scripture. They don't. We are to allow scripture to speak for itself and interpret itself, and our role is to submit ourselves to what the word of God says.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Either it is in scripture or it is not.

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Some groups have been arguing that the Trinity is not scripture for about 2,000 years... I would have to say that your reasoning does not work well in the real world.

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People think that they, or their church or whoever has the right to interpret scripture. They don't.

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Why does the Church not have a right to interpret scripture?

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We are to allow scripture to speak for itself and interpret itself, and our role is to submit ourselves to what the word of God says.

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... and that is called Biblical relativism, and not a way to determine orthodoxy.

Not sure why it is so difficult to understand that the Bible "interprets itself" differently for each and every person who reads it.

There is ONE truth... not many.

Even though the word trinity is not in the scripture does not mean the teaching is not there.
Same with purgatory the word is not there BUT the question IS is the teaching there?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Some groups have been arguing that the Trinity is not scripture for about 2,000 years... I would have to say that your reasoning does not work well in the real world.

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Why? Because men ignore what scripture says - you conclude that there is a problem with accepting scripture at face value?

I fail to see the logic in that approach. So what is your solution - allow one man or group of men to interpret it all on your, and God's behalf? Fallible men not unlike those who mi-interpreted the Bible to begin with?

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Why does the Church not have a right to interpret scripture?

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God said it in His word.

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... and that is called Biblical relativism, and not a way to determine orthodoxy.

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Actually, it is the exact opposite.

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There is ONE truth... not many.

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Exactly. But when you leave interpretation in the hands of men, there become many interpretations and claims that there are many truth, or those who say that we cannot know what scripture says.

That is why God said that no man is interpret scripture.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Even though the word trinity is not in the scripture does not mean the teaching is not there.
Same with purgatory the word is not there BUT the question IS is the teaching there?

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Amen my friend... but, as usual, I say it does... and so does more than a thousand years of Christians long before you and I were born... so who determines who is right?

Didn't you say the denomination decides what is "scriptural" or not?

Why does this not apply to the Catholic Church?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

God said it in His word.

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Please show me.