Ask Me Help Desk - Can you lose your salvation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain_man

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

OK I was raised as a baptist so I always believed once saved always saved - then I became church of christ and realised that yes you can loose your salvation. It is not like GOD just forgets about you!! Because he doesn't!! I believe you can fall away from GOD and into sin - everyone does it and no one is perfect!! You just have to have the strength to come back to him!! And admit you were wrong!! And be forgiven!! The only way you can loose your salvation is if you really fall away from him and don't come back and just really don't listen to anyone that is trying to help you!! GOD BLESS!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by geegi-babydoll

ok i was raised as a baptist so i always believed once saved always saved - then i became church of christ and realised that yes you can loose your salvation.

It is not a case of "losing your salvation" vs "once saved always saved".

Scripture is clear that you can reject your salvation willingly, but nowhere does it allow us to simply lose our salvation without making a decision to turn away from it. In fact scripture explicitly states the opposite.

Can You Explain That For Me A Little More!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain_man

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

How can anyone know anything?Isn't knowledge an assumption we use to move through the world?Does the world respond to what you expect from her and offer you a reflection?Do I know anything?We seem to know to eat, breathe, you MUST know something just for yourself.I DO know that to be pessemistic probably doesn't help so maybe act like a god and even be good?You'll be right... I think

Quote:

Originally Posted by geegi-babydoll

Can You Explain That For Me A Little More!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scripture tells us that we have assurance of salvation. It tells us that no one can snatch us from His hand. Therefore we are secure in our salvation and cannot lose it.

Scripture is also clear that we can reject His salvation, or willfully choose to turn away from God. Though we cannot just 'lose" it, we can knowingly and willfully turn away from it.

geegi-babydoll,
You are right. The bible tells us several way a person can lose their salvation as I outlined in my earlier post of this subject,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

geegi-babydoll,
You are right. The bible tells us several way a person can lose their salvation as I outlined in my earlier post of this subject,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

You have showed ways that people can willfully reject salvation, but I am still waiting for a single scripture based example of where one can "lose" salvation.

Tj3,
Please read my earlier post on this subject.
But in short just one of the ways a person can lose their salvation is this.
If a person who supposedly has been salved for so reason refuses to forgive others, then that person will NOT be forgiven.
I personally know such a person who has passed away and I do pray that on her death bed she did forgive.
If your sins are not fogiven you are not pure and therefore not allowed into heaven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either.
Another way to lose it is in this case.
A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.
Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture is also clear that we can reject His salvation, or willfully choose to turn away from God. Though we cannot just 'lose" it, we can knowingly and willfully turn away from it.

Amen... and this leads me to believe the confusion about this is mainly a matter of "language"... as I doubt anyone other than the most rabid OSAS'er would claim that we can't even turn away from our salvation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

But in short just one of the ways a person can lose their salvation is this. If a person who supposedly has been salved for so reason refuses to forgive others, then that person will NOT be forgiven.

Fred, this passage was not aimed at Christians, but at the multitudes. This is not to say that we who are saved do not need to forgive - we do - but this does not prove that one can lose their salvation.

Quote:

Another way to lose it is in this case. A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.

This refers specifically to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is something done willingly, therefore this would be turning against the Holy Spirit, not losing your salvation.

Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)[/QUOTE]

Tj3,
Never-the-less regarding both cases I mentioned, from my point, of view salvation was lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Never-the-less regarding both cases I mentioned, from my point, of view salvation was lost.

I acknowledge that these represent your opinion.

Tj3,
Thank you.
I do the same with your opinions.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Thank you.
I do the same with your opinions.
Fred

You mean the quotes that I give validating my views with scripture?

That is kind of you to suggest that my opinions are so well aligned with scripture.

Tj3,
Never mine, Tom.
You use pits an pieces scripture in attempt to support what you want to believe.
I use all of the bible not just bits and pieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Never mine, Tom.
You use pits an pieces scripture in attempt to support what you want to believe.
I use all of the bible not just bits and pieces.

But, Fred, I do use scripture (and I do use all of the Bible but I do not intend to copy and paste the whole thing here), and I use it in context. I do not copy and paste references from someone else's website (as you have), but rather I study the Bible for myself.

Tj3,
You have proven to me and others that when you are TRYING to prove that the bible says what you want it to you use picky choosey Scripture to prove it and ignore what other verses say.
Or you interpret Scripture your personal way.
So it is with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You have proven to me and others that when you are TRYING to prove that the bible says what you want it to you use picky choosey Scripture to prove it and ignore what other verses say.
Or you interpret Scripture your personal way.
So it is with you.

False accusations and ad hominems do not make for a sound argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

This refers specifically to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is something done willingly, therefore this would be turning against the Holy Spirit, not losing your salvation.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What if you refuse to be baptised, or think it is not necessary to be baptised. I have viewed the choice of some that feel it is not necessary. Would it be wise not to receive this gift of The Holy Spirit from baptism?

And what was that unforgivable sin in Luke 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What does scripture say about receiving the Holy Spirit?

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Rom 8:9-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit
who dwells in you.
NKJV

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if
children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him,
that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

2 Cor 1:21-23
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also
has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
NKJV

So scripture says that those who believe will receive the Holy Spirit. But the world (unsaved) will not receive the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor
knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

How do we receive the Holy Spirit according to scripture? Let's look back at the first verse that we referenced which shows that the Holy Spirit indwells believer, John 7:39:

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

This says that the Spirit is given to all who believe. Scripture is also clear that the Spirit comes by faith and not by works:

Gal 3:5-6
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

In summary, the Holy Spirit comes to those who believe and only those who believe. We in fact have a specific example given in scripture which is specific that the Holy Spirit is given after belief and before water baptism:

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard
the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
NKJV

Note that the Holy Spirit fell upon them as they heard the word. We have already seen that the Holy Spirit only comes upon those who believe, so we know that they believed. But notice that it was after that, that they received water baptism. We therefore know from specific and clear teaching in God's word that water baptism is not a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

What about remission of sins? Doesn't this verse say that water baptism is required for remission of sins? Using the same approach as we did previously, let's examine what scripture says about the requirements for our sins to be remitted.

Matt 26:27-29
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding
of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

Luke 24:46-47
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it wasnecessary for the Christ to
suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
NKJV

Acts 10:43
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will
receive remission of sins."
NKJV

Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Nowhere in scripture will you find any statement which says the same about water. It is only through the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that we are saved.

The first problem in understanding this verse comes if we read it by itself and not in the context of the whole of scripture. Let's start with the local context.

What is the topic that Peter is speaking about? If you look earlier in the passage, Peter is preaching Jesus, preaching about Jesus death and resurrection on the cross, and indeed preached salvation though believing Christ, for example:

Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
NKJV

And we have already seen that the larger context of scripture does not agree with the interpretation that the Holy Spirit and salvation requires water baptism. And yet that is what this verse appears to say when read by itself. How can that be? It has to do with the grammatic structure of the sentence.

Let's look at a different example - If I told you that I took an aspirin for a headache, would it mean that I cannot have the headache without the aspirin? Of course not! If aspirin gave headaches, the company selling aspirins would be bankrupt. We take aspirin because we have a headache, not to get the headache.

Likewise, we are baptized, not to receive salvation, have our sins remitted and to receive the Holy Spirit, but, as we saw in Acts 10:47, because it has already occurred. The act of baptism is our response to have received salvation.

If we look at the original Koine Greek in which this passage was written, the word for is the Greek word “eis”. This word has a wide range of meanings and could carry with it the intent of either for, as Acts 2:38 is too often interpreted, or it could carry the intent of “because of”, which would make Acts 2:38 consistent with the rest of scripture. We have many passages in scripture where “eis” carries the intent or concept of “because of”, for example:

Matt 12:41
41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it,
because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is
here.
NKJV

The word "at" is eis. Now did they repent so that they would have the preaching of Jonah? Or is it the other way around?

Rom 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
NKJV

Were we baptized to cause His death?

Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance, but He who is coming after me is
mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy
Spirit and fire. NKJV

Were they baptized with water to get repentance or because they repented?

The point is that the intent of “because of” is commonly used both in English and in Koine Greek, and that is the only sense in which the word “eis” can be understood in the context of scripture for it to be consistent with the rest of scripture. With that in mind, let's have another look at Acts 2:38:

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

So now understanding that the intent of “eis” in context is “because of”, we could read this to say:

“Repent, and then be baptized because you have received remission of sins and the Holy Spirit.”

So far I have not dealt with the reference to repentance, but repentance is used almost
interchangeably in scripture with believing in Christ when salvation is being discussed and for good reason – when one comes to Christ, one must repent. Let's look at some verses on repentance:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the
kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.
Repent, and believe in the gospel."
NKJV

Mark 6:11-13
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many
demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.NKJV

Luke 13:2-4
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.NKJV

Acts 3:19-22
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of
refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of
restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since
the world began.
NKJV

Acts 8:21-23
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your
heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV

None of these even suggests or mentions baptism as essential for salvation.

What if someone thinks that it is unnecessary or refused? It may be a sin, but if you point the finger at those who sin in one way, be careful:

Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

We have all sinned. If sin keeps us from being saved, then we are all without hope.