Sub "level" there if you like. Meaning stays the same.
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Sub "level" there if you like. Meaning stays the same.
I don't like, so I won't.
Sounds to me like it's just a matter of terminology. Library science doesn't separate fiction into historical and non-historical, but so what? I've seen plenty of works cataloged in fiction that should have been in the 800s, and vice versa.Quote:
There are no "levels". They are called genres, categories.
Call it what you like. The fact is, the division exists.
This certainly settles the issue of whether or not, "Fiction is fiction."
"All Quiet is not fiction; it's historical fiction." So one is not the other.
Sound like a reasonable stopping point.Quote:
Sounds to me like it's just a matter of terminology.
All fiction of any genre used to be in the 800s (literature). American Fiction in English was at 813.54. There was no "fiction" section with FIC/Author on the spine; all books had numbers on their spines -- Dewey Decimal (or Library of Congress) classifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Dewey Decimal Classifications:
- 810 American literature in English
- 811 American poetry in English
- 812 American drama in English
- 813 American fiction in English
- 814 American essays in English
- 815 American speeches in English
- 816 American letters in English
- 817 American humor and satire in English
- 818 American miscellaneous writings in English
- 819 No longer used—formerly Puzzle activities
Have you given up on replying to my post #216? Especially your reference to Genesis, if that is what it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I hope you're not reverting to your hit-and-run approach to this board again. Once in a while is ok.
Your regular participation is welcome here.
This is coming from the person who refused to state his view on the resurrection, has refused to disclose his own religious beliefs, and will not state what kind of evidence he would accept concerning the resurrection. Now if he want others to be forthcoming, he should accept that challenge himself.Quote:
Have you given up on replying to my post #216?
Thanks. Back at you.Quote:
Have you given up on replying to my post #216? Especially your reference to Genesis, if that is what it was.
I hope you're not reverting to your hit-and-run approach to this board again. Once in a while is ok.
Your regular participation is welcome here.
Not so much hit-and-run as "life is insane and I can only get here occasionally".
The "talking snake" in Genesis is clearly a euphemism for hasatan, the adversary who appears later on especially in Job. Could other animals talk before the Fall? The question never occurred to me. But the story in Genesis 3 is clearly talking about something more than your basic garter snake.
As I said, life has gotten crazy and I have limited time. It seems to me this discussion is going nowhere, so I'm going to politely bow out for now.
LOL - I know exactly what you mean!Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Yes, the snake is Satan (hasatan). I don't think that's ever been denied. The question is - based on that story - can snakes talk? I say no, the story is just that, a story with a message. Some here have claimed the snake did literally talk. That's like saying Mickey Mouse is an actual talking mouse. It's not easy to take anyone seriously who makes such a claim.Quote:
The "talking snake" in Genesis is clearly a euphemism for hasatan, the adversary who appears later on especially in Job.
It never occurred to me either.Quote:
Could other animals talk before the Fall? The question never occurred to me.
Yes, it's talking about the story of Adam and Eve. That has never been denied either.Quote:
But the story in Genesis 3 is clearly talking about something more than your basic garter snake.
That is your privilege to bow out, but I wonder why you could never unequivocally deny the notion of a talking snake.Quote:
It seems to me this discussion is going nowhere, so I'm going to politely bow out for now.
Anyway, this discussion is much more than simply "going nowhere". It was part of challenging the literal-ness of the Bible. It began with the belief of Jesus saying in the Gospel of Matthew that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.
After many deflections and denials - all of which were answered - it included the "talking snake" belief. This belief is a mainstay of fundamentalists and white evangelicals, about which I will have more to say at "Religious Discussions".
Must be meant to be taken humorously?Quote:
After many deflections and denials - all of which were answered.
I am God's Love.Quote:
Hey, Walter. A thought just hit me. How do you define, "the love of God"? Maybe that is where we are missing each other. What is your definition of the term?
I Honestly Don't know what you guys are going on about. I thought I'd wait, wait till you were done with all this Malarkey.
What is the purpose of the Bible? It is to make men and women wise unto salvation. It’s not a book about astronomy. It’s not a scientific textbook. It’s a book that has been written to make us wise for salvation. So we should be very, very careful, then, about trying to extrapolate scientific terminology and deductions from a book that does not have that as its express purpose.
Ultimately, the Bible can only be interpreted for us by the Holy Spirit. Because true understanding is not natural to us. And if you listened carefully to the psalmist, you would realize that Milne is right when he says, “What we understand of [God’s] truth is related less to the capacity of our brains than to the extent of our obedience.” “What we learn of God’s truth is related less to the capacity of our brains than to the extent of our obedience.”
What the Bible says is that God has breathed out the holy Scriptures and that it is this which provides Scripture with its reliability and with its authority—that God has spoken, revealing truth and at the same time preserving the human authors from error, and doing so in such a way so as not to violate their personalities.
Not following you on that one. Are you saying that when the Bible refers to God's love, it is specifically referring to Waltero?Quote:
I am God's Love.
Glad to see you back!
I think this was your best paragraph. "What the Bible says is that God has breathed out the holy Scriptures and that it is this which provides Scripture with its reliability and with its authority—that God has spoken, revealing truth and at the same time preserving the human authors from error, and doing so in such a way so as not to violate their personalities."
Thanks.Quote:
Glad to see you back!
Yes...it takes God's love to love God.Quote:
Not following you on that one. Are you saying that when the Bible refers to God's love, it is specifically referring to Waltero?
It’s in 2 Peter 1:21. And there, speaking of the work of God in Scripture, says in verse 21, “For prophesy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”Quote:
"What the Bible says is that God has breathed out the holy Scriptures and that it is this which provides Scripture with its reliability and with its authority—that God has spoken, revealing truth and at the same time preserving the human authors from error, and doing so in such a way so as not to violate their personalities."
What God has to say to us is much more important than what we have to say to him. And indeed, we have nothing to say to him until first, we have heard from him.
What does God have to say to us? Where or how?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
We cannot reach out to Him first?Quote:
And indeed, we have nothing to say to him until first, we have heard from him.
You said, "I am God's love." I replied, "Are you saying that when the Bible refers to God's love, it is specifically referring to Waltero?" That would seem to be the logical conclusion of you saying, "I (Waltero) am God's love." So how does this reply of yours answer the question? "Yes...it takes God's love to love God."
Not according to the Bible.Quote:
"We cannot reach out to Him first?"
"We cannot reach out to Him first?"
Not according to the Bible.
Yes, we can -- according to the Bible.
Prov. 8:17: I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Acts17:27: God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Heb. 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
James 4:8: Come near to God and he will come near to you.
None of those say that we can come to God without Him first calling us. However, these passages ALL say that no one can come to God unless God first reaches out to that person. The first three come from Christ Himself. It is hard to imagine how He could have put it much clearer.
John 6:44. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 3:3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 2:14. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [c]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
My verses are much more explicit. God wants us to seek Him and will respond.
Your verses are explicit about what they are speaking of. They do not, however, say that man can come to God without God first calling Him.
But you can reject the words of Jesus if you want. Your choice.
Again --Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Prov. 8:17: I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Acts17:27: God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Heb. 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
James 4:8: Come near to God and he will come near to you.
No, I'm not rejecting anything. You are twisting His words.Quote:
But you can reject the words of Jesus if you want. Your choice.
Clear, plain text. They are simply there for you to accept or reject.
John 6:44. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 3:3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Now tell me, why do Bible verses contradict each other?
They don't.
Um, see examples above.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I did. They don't. Besides, you claimed I was twisting the words of Christ because, I suppose, He does not agree with your opinion. Well, if you still hold to that position, then there is no contradiction.
I did. They don't. Besides, you claimed I was twisting the words of Christ because, I suppose, He does not agree with your opinion. Well, if you still hold to that position, then there is no contradiction.
Why are you saying (twice???) that the verses I cherry-picked (NOT my opinion) don't support the opposite of what you claim, that my quoted verses are not inspired scripture, are not the words of Christ?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
They certainly do not support your argument.Quote:
don't support the opposite of what you claim
They are inspired.Quote:
, that my quoted verses are not inspired scripture,
They were not the words of Christ. They are the word of God, however.Quote:
are not the words of Christ?
Your passages are not, in my view, cherry-picked. They simply don't support the idea that man can come to God without being drawn of God. They don't say that at all.
Of course, they do! As well as yours do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yes, I agree, the verses I posted are inspired. (Reading and comprehension problems again?)Quote:
They are inspired.
You want Jesus' words? Like this?Quote:
They were not the words of Christ. They are the word of God, however.
Matt. 7:7-8 -- Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Reading comp is not the problem. You asked if I was questioning the inspiration of your quoted scriptures, or if I considered them not to be the words of Christ. I simply stated they were inspired (correct) and they were NOT the words of Christ (also correct).
You have posted five scriptures. Which one explicitly states that a person can come to God without first being drawn by God? Bear in mind that my passages DID explicitly state that no man could come to Christ without being first drawn to Him by God.
So if God's not interested in drawing someone to Him, that person is s*** out of luck?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Why do they have to be the words of Christ?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So if God's not interested in drawing someone to Him, that person is s*** out of luck?
Who said they did?Quote:
Why do they have to be the words of Christ?
Huh? You didn't get my sarcasm toward your (not God's) comments?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You did. (Inspired scriptures aren't good enough....)Quote:
2. Who said they did?
Total lie. I never said that.Quote:
You did. (Inspired scriptures aren't good enough....)
Anger. Always happens when you find the Bible does not support your views.Quote:
"...that person is s*** out of luck?"
Not in so many words.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Even you agree the verses I posted are from the Bible and were inspired. And they do say someone can come to God without God coming to him first.Quote:
Anger. Always happens when you find the Bible does not support your views.
Not in any words. Total lie. You could have simply said you were mistaken, but now you can't even use that.
Post just one. None of them said the underlined part.Quote:
And they do say someone can come to God without God coming to him first.
Post #257: You said, "None of those say that we can come to God without Him first calling us. However, these passages ALL say that no one can come to God unless God first reaches out to that person. The first three come from Christ Himself. It is hard to imagine how He could have put it much clearer."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You claimed I said, "Inspired scriptures aren't good enough...." Neither those words nor that idea are anywhere to be found in the post you copied. The idea of inspiration is not even discussed. The post was clearly about the plain message of the various texts. I even said later that your passages are inspired, but they don't say what you claim they do.
Shame on you. Is it that hard to simply say you were wrong? Good grief. It all seems to come down to your frustration over not being able to find support for your views. You might as well just admit it. It is painfully apparent and difficult to watch.
What is painfully apparent is this from WGQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Post #257: You said, "None of those say that we can come to God without Him first calling us. However, these passages ALL say that no one can come to God unless God first reaches out to that person. The first three come from Christ Himself. It is hard to imagine how He could have put it much clearer."
Where is waltero when we need him?
Again --
Prov. 8:17: I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Acts17:27: God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Heb. 11:6: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
James 4:8: Come near to God and he will come near to you.
You want Jesus' words? Like this?
Matt. 7:7-8 -- Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
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