Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I didn't claim that. I said that I already answered it.

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So if you don't think that it about you, then just drop it. I will continue to seek Joe's answers.

Tj,

Where in Acts 10 does it say that Cornelius and the others were *saved*?

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Originally Posted by arcura

I just said that it IS essential when available.
Don't try to twist my words to mean something else as is your habit to do.
Fred

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Fred,

First I'd like to see you justify that from scripture.

And second, in Acts 10 water was available and were baptized AFTER salvation. Your explanation, even if you could find any scriptural basis, would not address this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Tj,

Where in Acts 10 does it say that Cornelius and the others were *saved*?

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It says that they receive the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit?

Joe,

I've got it. It's a shell game. And the Catholics he preys on don't know it's a shell game, so they don't know what to look out for.

Tj,

You repost wasn't a repost. Please indicate the # so I can find your answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Tj,

You repost wasn't a repost. Please indicate the # so I can find your answer.

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What are you talking about now. The last thing that you asked me to report was a direct copy and paste. Are you talking about something else?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It says that they receive the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit?

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I'll say what I said before (taking a page from your book): I believe what the Bible tells me. It doesn't tell me that they were saved.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I'll say what I said before (taking a page from your book): I believe what the Bible tells me. It doesn't tell me that they were saved.

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Do you believe that the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit?

Why do you avoid this question?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

First I'd like to see you justify that from scripture.

And second, in Acts 10 water was available and were baptized AFTER salvation. Your explanation, even if you could find any scriptural basis, would not address this.

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Acts 10 says that after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit they were promptly baptized. Where does it say that they were saved? Where do you find the word? Aren't you trying to insert into Acts 10 something it doesn't say?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Acts 10 says that after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit they were promptly baptized. Where does it say that they were saved? Where do you find the word? Aren't you trying to insert into Acts 10 something it doesn't say?

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What do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 refers to?

Akoue.
Good question.
I do not see a statement that they were saved.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It says that they receive the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

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Let me spell it out for you.

The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; 1. The baptism of water, 2. The baptism of desire, and 3. the baptism of blood. The first is a sacrament, the others being only an effect of baptism, the receipt of grace, and the remittance of sins. The latter two forms are only effective when baptism by water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism

Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

They were baptized with water!

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Maybe if you spent less time mis-representing what I say and more time reading what is said....

Here is it once again:

"You know ... what happens when a person is saved according to scripture."

I am making the assumption that you understand what the Bible says happens when a person is saved.

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Sorry, missed that one in the shuffle. What happens? What does "indwell" mean? Since I can't find the word anywhere, can you tell what the Greek is? I have no idea what "indwell" means.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Let me spell it out for you.

The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism;...

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I am interested in what scripture says, not your denominational beliefs.

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Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

They were baptized with water!

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After salvation. Exactly.

JoeT
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

What do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 refers to?

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Thanks, Acts 2.38 helps my case A LOT. Not only does Acts 10 not say anything about salvation, Act.2.38 says that they should be baptized so that they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Joe,

I've got it. It's a shell game. And the Catholics he preys on don't know it's a shell game, so they don't know what to look out for.

Tj,

You repost wasn't a repost. Please indicate the # so I can find your answer.

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I knew it before I started. This is a recurrent theme with non-Catholics. Most hold that scriptures are open to private interpretation, thus the meaning becomes subjective to the reader. In short what we see is faith built on how one wills God to react to man. This is in contrast to a faith, such as the Roman Catholic Church built on the objective will of God, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

After salvation. Exactly.

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And it says that where, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Sorry, missed that one in the shuffle. What happens? What does "indwell" mean? Since I can't find the word anywhere, can you tell what the Greek is? I have no idea what "indwell" means.

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I assumed that you understood Christian salavtion from a scriptural perspective. If you do not understand these basics, I can understand why this discussion has been so difficult for you.

James 4:5
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
NKJV

Now what about my question - what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is in Acts 2:38.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I am interested in what scripture says, not your denominational beliefs.



After salvation. Exactly.

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They are all scripturally based, they are OF Scripture.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Thanks, Acts 2.38 helps my case A LOT. Not only does Acts 10 not say anything about salvation, Act.2.38 says that they should be baptized so that they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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And what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I knew it before I started. This is a recurrent theme with non-Catholics. Most hold that scriptures are open to private interpretation, thus the meaning becomes subjective to the reader. In short what we see is faith built on how one wills God to react to man. This is in contrast to a faith, such as the Roman Catholic Church built on the objective will of God, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

JoeT

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Yeah, and I notice he hasn't answered my question about the early Church. It's a shell game.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

They are all scripturally based, they are OF Scripture.

JoeT

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If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

And what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is?

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For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. It followed baptism.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

And it says that where, exactly?

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Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. It followed baptism.

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It does matter. Answer the question - stop avoiding.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

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You've said repeatedly on other threads that there were no denominations in the first and second centuries. So why not explain how the early Church Fathers could have got it all so wrong. You know, answer the question I posted just a little bit ago.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Yeah, and I notice he hasn't answered my question about the early Church. It's a shell game.

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And he won't. It just keeps going round and round and round, ah heck, and around.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

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I've already told you that I don't know what "indwell" means. Where is it used in Scripture? What's the Greek?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

You've said repeatedly on other threads that there were no denominations in the first and second centuries. So why not explain how the early Church Fathers could have got it all so wrong. You know, answer the question I posted just a little bit ago.

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Whether they did or did not get any specific point wrong is of no consequence to me. I am here to discuss scripture. If you want to go on to a different discussion, then you are welcome to do so, but I have no interest in that part of the discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I've already told you that I don't know what "indwell" means. Where is it used in Scripture? What's the Greek?

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I gave you a quote. Or maybe you did not read it. Post 258.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

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So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

Then I can conclude you don't drive automobiles, fly in planes, or take trains. These aren't in scripture. Just like you don't believe in the Trinity, correct?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It does matter. Answer the question - stop avoiding.

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Acts 2.38ff doesn't say what the gift is. I don't want to read anything into Scripture that isn't there. I'll just accept what is says, otherwise I would be giving it my own private interpretation.

A person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit without being baptized.
But a person who is properly baptized has the Holy Spirit dwell within him or her.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

Then I can conclude you don't drive automobiles, fly in planes, or take trains. These aren't in scripture. Just like you don't believe in the Trinity, correct?

JoeT

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I've been thinking about the Trinity too. Thanks for beating me to the punch.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

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Scripture is the standard of doctrine.

Joe,
Again well said.
Well done.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Acts 2.38ff doesn't say what the gift is. I don't want to read anything into Scripture that isn't there. I'll just accept what is says, otherwise I would be giving it my own private interpretation.

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So you don't think that Acts 2:38 speaks about salvation. Interesting because your friends use it to as an argument in favour of water baptism being essential for salvation.

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Originally Posted by arcura

A person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit without being baptized.

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Can an unsaved person receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10 is not speaking of inspiration.

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But a person who is properly baptized has the Holy Spirit dwell within him or her.

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Maybe you should explain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to Akoue. He does not understand what this means in Christian doctrine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture is the standard of doctrine.

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Key words are being used here; I wondered when we would get to this. Who’s "standard of doctrine"? We wouldn't be talking about your "standard of doctrine" would we. Will we be discussing it here?

JoeT