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Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Believe as you wish, but I am quite happy to stand on what God's word says. I do not plan to spend any length of time in fiery punishment. If you prefer a fiery punishment, then so be it. If you would prefer to have assurance of salvation from the fiery punishment, I'd be happy to share that with you.
Dear Arcura, once and for all, so many have been telling you that purgatory is a hoax, you and others try to prove it by the use of 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Again, for the umpteenth time, this verse is talking about our works, if they be worthy or not.
If we go about preaching about things that God will not honour, like the doctrine of Purgatory, then that will be burned up.
If we go about helping and loving others, these will remain.
Whenever we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, whether it is by following the scriptures or by Him speaking directly into our spirit, these works will stand.
Any works that we have done for profit, for pride, for self advancement, for praise of others, as a matter of fact, anything that wasn't done for the love of God and love for your neighbor, and not done from the heart, is burned up.
The fire that is mentioned here, deals with God's word, the one that comes from His mouth when He judges your works, here are a few examples of the words of God.
2 Samuel 22
7 In my distress I called to the LORD;
I called out to my God.
From his temple he heard my voice;
My cry came to his ears.
8 "The earth trembled and quaked,
The foundations of the heavens [c] shook;
They trembled because he was angry.
9 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
consuming fire came from his mouth,
burning coals blazed out of it.
10 He parted the heavens and came down;
Dark clouds were under his feet.
11 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
He soared on the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness his canopy around him—
The dark rain clouds of the sky.
13 Out of the brightness of his presence
Bolts of lightning blazed forth.
14 The LORD thundered from heaven;
The voice of the Most High resounded.
15 He shot arrows and scattered the enemies ,
Bolts of lightning and routed them.
16 The valleys of the sea were exposed
And the foundations of the earth laid bare
At the rebuke of the LORD,
At the blast of breath from his nostrils.
Jeremiah 5
13 The prophets are but wind
And the word is not in them;
So let what they say be done to them."
14 Therefore this is what the LORD God Almighty says:
"Because the people have spoken these words,
I will make my words in your mouth a fire
And these people the wood it consumes.
Deuteronomy 4:11-13
11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.
Jeremiah 20
9 But if I say, "I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
Indeed, I cannot.
Jeremiah 23
25 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?
27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship.
28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD.
29 "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.
Hosea 6
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth;
my judgments flashed like lightning upon you.
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
And acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Psalm 29
7 The voice of the LORD strikes
with flashes of lightning.
8 The voice of the LORD shakes the desert;
The LORD shakes the Desert of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the LORD twists the oaks [c]
And strips the forests bare.
And in his temple all cry, "Glory!"
When the Lord judges our works, it will have to judged against His word and by His word.
This is the true meaning of this scripture, not some weak link to an imagined netherworld of pain, torment and suffering for those that have put their trust in Jesus.
To say that Jesus death on the cross did not save us from the penalty for our sins, is to agree with the devil, therefore, it is against Christ.
I guess it is hard to understand that you are under a spirit of delusion, when there are so many in agreement with you.
You make a mockery of God's love, when you take the most loved scripture in the Bible and say that God's love is flawed, that His love includes terror, pain, torment, suffering, just to be made righteous.
I am flabbergasted at the use of some of the scriptures the Catholics use to give credibility to their argument.
It's an insult to my God and His word.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son.
If you are a father or mother, would you give the life of your child to die in the place of murders, thieves, adulterers etc.
If you were in this position, you would say, "Take my life not theirs".
For your love for your children is greater than the love for yourself.
How great then, was the love of the Father, to give the one He loved even more than Himself, to pay for our sins, and then we say, "not good enough God, I have to do my own works to get into Heaven"
We make the gift of God of none effect if we do this.
If I could lay down my own life to get you to accept the Grace of God, then I would.
You are so precious to God, he wants to love on you, not beat you up.
This is not His nature.
This is His nature,
Nehemiah 9
But You are a God of forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.
This does not sound like the ogre that the catholic church preaches.
Our God is a God of Love, He never changes.
Bless you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The difference is Tj3 has laid his life and faith in Christ. Tj3 and others here who believe as he does follow Christ. The veil was cut wide open by Christ. What was once is no more because of Chirst' blood.
You Fred, follow your church and their traditions as a path to Christ, needing your priest, along with traditions of man to reach salvation.
As in the temple there was a holy chamber in which only the priest could enter the sanctuary.
Ezekiel 44:11.. Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, [having] charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
However when Christ was on the cross this changed everything that was, because no more burnt offerings were needed. He died for us, and took power over the devil. The veil which only the priest could go through is now gone.
Hebrews 2: 9-14 .. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The holy chamber at that time was open to everyone, the veil was opened.
Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
My question to you Fred is, do you trust and believe in these scripture?
Tj3, I agree.. it won't let me give you green..
Scott RC,Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
We've already kicked around 1 Corinthians 3:15. Here, you are also appealing to 1 Peter 1:7 as a proof text for purgatory.
Here is the text from 1 Peter (NIV) in context:
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Looks to me like Peter is referring to trials that the believers are encountering here on the earth. Since he is writing to live persons, I don't understand how you can use a text about suffering in life as a Christian to support a belief in Purgatory - which according to your definition occurs after death. Do you agree that Peter is writing to live persons about events that "have come" which they "have had to suffer?"
If so, how does this text support the notion of purgatory as defined by ccc 1030?
Rob
ScottRC, If you had children, or if you have, and you loved them so much your heart would break if anything should happen to them.
What if you knew their was an enemy out to kill them, so you made a safe haven for them.
What if your beloved children made a mistake, no not one mistake, many mistakes, but then they had a change of heart and came to you and admitted to you that they messed up and that they were truly sorry that they not only hurt you by their disobedience, but let you down in your hope for them.
What if you forgave them and welcomed them back, not only into your home, but into your heart.
Would you then say to them,"I know that you are sorry for all the trouble you have caused, and I can see that you really want to change, and have changed from that selfish child that you were. I can see that you have a broken heart for the hurt you have caused me, and I forgive you completely, but because you still have a tendency for sin, that was in you when you were born, I am going to take you over to this red hot stove and hold your hand on it for 10 minutes, because I love you."
If you, or anybody did that to their child, they would be classed a monster and thrown into prison, where they belong.
How-ever, this is the way that you see God, only much, much worse, not the hand, but the whole body, and not for ten minutes, for many. Many years.
For God's sake, wake up to yourself, this is not the nature of God, this is the nature of the devil.
He came to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus came to give life and more abundantly.
God loves you, He is a good God not an evil tyrant.
Give Him the honour He deserves, stop believing the lies of the devil, and know the love of God in truth.
Romans 8
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Dear tsila1777, absolutely, even as it says in Hebrews 12 -
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
I can see that you have mastered the discipline that you are under, even in suffering, you give glory to God.
My 7 yr old daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia last year, and even though I thought of myself as a mature Christian, I fell to pieces.
How-ever, through the strength of the love that was shown us, not only by the Church, but by our neighbors, my work mates and Jamies' school, we made it through.
I was blown away by the love and compassion shown by all.
It revived in me the spirit of mateship, that I thought was dead here in Australia.
It showed me that it wasn't that others had shut their hearts to me, quite the opposite, and I found that love can come from any quarter.
I saw love coming from Christians and non Christians, it was so refreshing for both, my wife and I.
It may seem odd to some, but I thank God that Jamie got leukemia, it changed my focus, I thought that what I believed was right, I was still going to Church, reading my Bible etc, but this just knocked me for six.
You don't realise how much you need God, until there is nowhere else to turn.
Suddenly, I had to seek the Lord in earnest, not passive prayers anymore, but with a hungry heart, wanting more and more of God.
Jamie, by God's grace, is doing fine, she is amazing the doctors, one of whom said to us after examining Jamie and looking at all the test results, "If any body saw these results and looked at you (Jamie), they would say that you have never had Leukemia!"
I thank God for His discipline, I needed it, and He knew just where to get my attention!
Bless you Tsila, I pray that the Lord will fill you with even greater wisdom and understanding in your knowledge of Him.
:) :)
ScottRC
How am I judging? How is my saying that any different than your claims that 'my interpretation' OR sola scriptura is wrong?
Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings... so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadsen
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I have NO CLUE as to what the point of your post is...Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterWilson
It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory, so I'm at a loss at how to respond... nothing that you offered is contrary to Catholic teaching... so I can only assume that you just don't understand it and have projected your faulty understanding into the discussion.
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I don't believe I even said you were "wrong" in the same way... I don't doubt your salvation because of what you believe... I'm not sure if you can say the same thing about me.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Once again... I couldn't care less if you remain a non-Catholic and continue to believe in sola scriptura... a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church... I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.
If you can't see the difference between a debate and judgement, then I can't help you understand.
Let's change the reference to "proof texts" and let's discuss scripture. What we are trying to establish is not p;roof texts as such but scriptural validation for your interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
We should be looking for how scripture interprets scripture not personal interpretation.Quote:
so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?
You are living on the edge, stepping outside of Roman Catholic teachings there!Quote:
a person can be saved in or out of the Catholic church...
"...we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Source: Roman Catholic Church Bull UNAM SANCTAM, November 18, 1302)
"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
(Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 816)
You have said that those who disagree with the Catholic teachings are stupid and ignorant. Is that better?Quote:
I'm just talking about topics that are important to us as Christians, but you'll never hear me telling someone that they are following the "nature of the devil" like Protestants attack Catholics.
Additional help in understanding the Catholic teaching on Purgatory:
Purgatory
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory
Fr. Frank Sofie
And my favorite, a fairly complete Q&A on Purgatory from Jimmy Akin: How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
We know well what the doctrine says - what we are seeking is scriptural validation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I don't know where to begin! Let's start with this quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
"Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification -- a purification -- of our natures."
Why? Jesus' death took care of all of our sins. Forever. Otherwise, his sacrifice wasn't quite "good enough."
Well, that's certainly one way to look at it... but I can assure you we don't believe Christ's sacrifice "wasn't quite "good enough".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I appreciate your input.
Then why did it fail to do what scripture says that it accomplished?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you."
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Then I presume that you concede that purgatory is at best un-necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I guess in addition to my "Amen" an explanation would help...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I had hoped people would take the time and effort to read the links I provided... the Akin paper is pretty helpful with this particular objection:
9. "It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ's work."
Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren't sufficient.
Wrong!
Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient.
Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!
- How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
Hope that helps.
This references speaks of suffering while we are alive, and does not refer to what happens when we die:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Heb 12:11
11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
NKJV
Notice that this refers to suffering in the present?
None of this refers to purgatory, nor does it take away from the fact that Jesus both cleanses us from sin and imputes His righteousness to us. There is nothing more that needs to be done.
"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
CCC #1022
Wait a minute! Back up the bus! Where does that verse indicate or even imply "through a purification"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Beep beep beep beep :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What verse are you referring to?Quote:
Where does that verse indicate or even imply "through a purification"?
Wake up and pay attention! And did you sing the Barney song yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
The verse is the one I just posted --
"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."
If you don't like that one, I'll find more (pssssssst! Heh heh -- Scripture interpreting and supporting Scripture).
Yes, ma'm... three times... but I also grabbed some ice cream... your fault by mentioning it! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Ah... my bad.Quote:
"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."
The verse says that men die and then are judged.
I agree... and supported this with the Catholic teaching that "Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death"
What don't you understand?
Psssst... nope... that's YOU posting scripture that YOU believe is relevant based upon YOUR PERSONAL interpretation of the verses...Quote:
If you don't like that one, I'll find more (pssssssst! Heh heh -- Scripture interpreting and supporting Scripture).
If they truly interpreted themselves, it would be self-evident to all.
When Jesus was on the cross He said, "It is finished!"
1 Corinthians 1:7-9 (King James Version)
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
That has nothing to do with purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Just checkin' to see if you are reading my posts. Good. You are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
It is. They do.Quote:
If they truly interpreted themselves, it would be self-evident to all.
ScottRC,
Excellent post.
When I was a Catholic bashing Protestant the teaching about Purgatory was one of the subjects I used in bashing The Church.
It was one of the hardest for me to understand when I started seriously studying The Church's teaching as related to the bible.
So I understand those here who have difficulty with it.
But I know, as I have mentioned, that the day will come for those seeking heaven to know for sure that Purgatory exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
And what is the evidence for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wondergirl,
How many times must I post these bible passages that indicate that Purgatory exists?
Please look them up and ponder them.
Purgatory
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred, copying and pasting these from the Catholic Cheatsheet website does not add credibility to them. And you know as well as I do that these have been refuted as many times as they have been posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
My suggestion would be for you to look them up before posting them.
Tell you what, Fred, when I have some free time, I will post the rebuttals again.
Ummmm... that was why I asked what verse you were referring to because this verse does NOT have anything to do with Purgatory... so I'll again ask, what's your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
All evidence to the contrary...Quote:
It is. They do.
I have never seen your post listing them. Nothing unclean will enter heaven because Jesus was our perfect sacrifice here on earth, and His sacrifice and His grace are sufficient for my going to heaven upon my death. There are many verses that confirm that. Yes, in heaven all souls are perfect. Thank you, Jesus. Col 1:24 is speaking of Paul's earthly suffering.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There's a series of very major t'storms going through the Chicago area. I have to shut off my computer again. More later.
Well, I can only assume that you admit you are not perfect now... why does this change when you die?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why is Jesus' sacrifice only "effective" to purify us AFTER our death but not before?
Thanks for helping me understand.
Luther found a phrase that worked for him, and it works for me too -- "simul iustus et peccator," at the same time righteous and a sinner. Christ's righteousness has been lovingly wrapped around me, but not because of any merit of my own. As long as I live, I am caught in this world, guilty of wrongdoing, a sinner. I wake up each morning with a clean slate in front of me--and how long does that slate remain clean?? Until I get dressed, or maybe only until I stand up out of bed? Only "in Christ" and because of His work of redemption am I righteous and counted as one of God's children, and deserving of heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I could not find the word purgatory in the Bible. I did some research and found that the translation is Hell. I found Hell in the Bible. But Jesus went to Hell and paid the price for my sins and iniquities, and by His stripes I am healed. I also found that I have redemption through His Blood, I have forgiveness of sins,
I sit with Him in the heavenly places.
It is by grace that I am saved through faith and nothing of me, it is the gift of God so I cannot not boast in myself, but of Him. I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. And I am confident that He Who has begun a good work in me, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
I am complete in Him, He had forgiven me all trespasses, even to blotting out the ordinances that was against me, and nailed it to His cross. I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God, when Christ appears I shall appear with Him in glory.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Y'all who believe in it can go to purgatory if you want to, but when that trump of God sounds I’m going up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall I ever be with the Lord.
That's exciting to think about isn't it?
Super... but that does not answer my question... but brings up yet another: will you STILL be a "righteous sinner" in heaven?... remember "Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14 ... holiness (at least my definition) is NOT being a sinner, so I'm not sure how you or Luther get around this.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"Nothing unclean, or anyone who does anything detestable, and no one who tells lies will ever enter it. Only those whose names are written in the lamb's Book of Life will enter it." Rev 21:27
Even the most "righteous sinner" is unlean and detestable before God... and I'm sure we all have told our share of lies... so I wonder how we can get our names in the book with the sinful state we're in... see what I'm getting at?
And while I'm quite certain you don't agree... I hope you now at least understand the BIBLICAL basis of this teaching.
If you consider yourself to be a child of God, then this is how you think of Him, as a cruel and vicious tyrant that enjoys bringing pain on His children, "Just to teach them a lesson"Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
If we are judged at the moment of death, what about the "Day of judgement",
Revelation 20
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
You can follow your religion, but I would rather follow the faith of the Bible.
Revelation 22
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Take fair warning, God's words, not mine.:cool:
Not so fast there Scott. :D Obviously you felt it supported purgatory, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up 1 Peter 1:7. Why do you feel that it supports purgatory if what Peter is writing about is happening to live people at the time of his writing? Can you see that it offers no support to the official definition which talks of something after death? Wouldn't you break down a verse if you disagreed with our use of it, or if a Jehovah witness offered a verse as proof of his notion that Jesus is "a god" rather than "The God?" If a Jehovah witness said, it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide what is correct," would you agree with him? My guess is that you wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Maybe you think that I'm wrong. What from the text itself and the literal and historical context of 1 Peter 1:7 leads you to believe that Peter is talking about Purgatory? Surely you must have had a reason to introduce that text. What was it?
Rob
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