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Where did I agree that sola scriptura contradicted the bible?
I also never said that works of iniquity would be burned
Did you misunderstand my reply?
IN fact I asked you if purgatory was before or after the judgment of the believers three times and you never did answer that.
Taking it out of context, you wouldn't.Quote:
Odd, I don't see the word "biblical" doctrine in there. I see where he said, "2 Timothy 2
2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
Quote:
Nor do I. But, since Jesus created the Church, I accept her authority:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
So, try again. Just saying you have higher authority than the Church doesn't make it so.Quote:
My denomination is the Church which Jesus built. And the Church which Jesus built is called the Pillar of Truth in the Bible. If you had a higher authority than that Church, you would be mentioned in said Bible, but you aren't.
But the key here is - what is the church? It is NOT your denomination or any other. Scripture is abundantly clear on that point. A point that you seem unwilling to consider from a scriptural perspective. If you are looking at the wrong church, then you are taking your direction from the wrong source. The true church would never stray from God's written word.
I allow scripture to interpret itself.Quote:
Not true. You follow YOUR interpretation of Jesus word. That is not the same thing since your interpretation is erroneous.
You said you didn't believe in Sola Scriptura here:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Message #26:
Quote:
I never claimed to go by scripture only but that everything should be able to be backed by scripture.
No. You agreed that works of iniquity is sin and you agreed that works are burned before the Judgement seat.Quote:
I also never said that works of iniquity would be burned
Did you misunderstand my reply?
Message #223:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Ok. I get the reference. So works of iniquity are sin.
Now, are these works tested? If so, where?
In the Judgment of the unbelievers. The great white throne judgment.
Unsaved sinners will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.
Yes I did. Message #222Quote:
IN fact I asked you if purgatory was before or after the judgment of the believers three times and you never did answer that.
Sincerely,Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
You never did answer my question is purgatory before or after the judgment?
I believe it is the Judgement.
De Maria
Since neither the word "biblical nor Scriptural is there anywhere, I would say that I've proved you took it out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I agree.Quote:
But the key here is - what is the church?
1. The Catholic Church has never strayed from God's word.Quote:
It is NOT your denomination or any other. Scripture is abundantly clear on that point. A point that you seem unwilling to consider from a scriptural perspective. If you are looking at the wrong church, then you are taking your direction from the wrong source. The true church would never stray from God's written word.
2. It is the denominations which follow the tradition of men known as Sola Scriptura which have strayed from God's word.
3. The Church described in Scripture describes the Catholic Church:
Daily Mass:
Acts Of Apostles 2 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers...
Holy Eucharist:
1 Corinthians 10 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
One Shepherd:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
One Lord, One faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
One doctrine:
Romans 16 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
Justification by faith and works
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.
Prayer to Saints:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Suffering to expiate sin:
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:
Infallible Church:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Authoritative Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Teaching Church:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Does Scripture say that it interprets itself? Or rather does Scripture say that it can be misunderstood?Quote:
I allow scripture to interpret itself.
2 Peter 3 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
And that they need to be explained:
Acts 8 27 And rising up, he went. And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. 28 And he was returning, sitting in this chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?
31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man show me?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Reaching for the bottom of the barrel with that one, aren't you? I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity). I am ausre that you are also aware that this approach would be fatal to your "purgatory" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You say that you agree and then avoid the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough, but ever heard of the Borgia popes?Quote:
1. The Catholic Church has never strayed from God's word.
You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position. Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.Quote:
It is the denominations which follow the tradition of men known as Sola Scriptura which have strayed from God's word.
There were no denominations in the 1st century.Quote:
The Church described in Scripture describes the Catholic Church
But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.
Wrong in both cases TJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
First of all, the doctrines being taught are not necessarily explicit in Scripture. Therefore they have to be preached. And that is exactly what we are talking about. A Tradition which goes hand in hand with Scripture. Spreading the same information and more importantly putting it into practice from the time that Jesus mouthed the words.
And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus. This is explicitly taught in the Deuterocanonicals which Luther took out of the Christian Bible:
2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.Quote:
You say that you agree and then avoid the question.
You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.
I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
Imbued with His Power:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
With authority to make disciples of the world:
Luke 16 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
I believe my understanding is supported by Scripture.
We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture:Quote:
I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough, but ever heard of the Borgia popes?
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Yes, I have.Quote:
but ever heard of the Borgia popes?
Actually, I think I've done a superlative job.Quote:
You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position.
No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.Quote:
Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.
True. Denominations are a result of Luther's reformation. In the first century only the Catholic Church existed.Quote:
There were no denominations in the 1st century.
Yes, there is:Quote:
But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.
Apocalypse 21 9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Wrong in both cases TJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
First of all, the doctrines being taught are not necessarily explicit in Scripture. Therefore they have to be preached. And that is exactly what we are talking about. A Tradition which goes hand in hand with Scripture. Spreading the same information and more importantly putting it into practice from the time that Jesus mouthed the words.
And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus. This is explicitly taught in the Deuterocanonicals which Luther took out of the Christian Bible:
2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.Quote:
You say that you agree and then avoid the question.
You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.
I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
Imbued with His Power:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
With authority to make disciples of the world:
Luke 16 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
I believe my understanding is supported by Scripture.
We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture:Quote:
I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough,
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Yes, I have.Quote:
but ever heard of the Borgia popes?
Actually, I think I've done a superlative job.Quote:
You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position.
No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.Quote:
Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.
True. Denominations are a result of Luther's reformation. In the first century only the Catholic Church existed.Quote:
There were no denominations in the 1st century.
Yes, there is:Quote:
But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.
Apocalypse 21 9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christ is the head of the body of the church.. which means the body are the members of a ministry within a structure. Christ is known as the foundation as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Who is the servant of all? The church.. Who is the servant working for? Christ
This makes no sense. One should not preach a doctrine which is not clearly taught in scripture. Preaching something does not make it true. BTW, Maccabees is not only not canonical, but the author does not claim inspiration, but rather attributes it to himself alone. Maccabees was added at the council of Trent - but of course you even reject the New Catholic Encyclopedia when it disagrees with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It seems that you are trying to introduce yet another topic (and false doctrine) to further obfuscate the issue at hand.Quote:
And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus.
You are having a hard enough time defending what you believe without trying to thoroughly mis-represent what I believe.Quote:
No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.
You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.
Then it is not your denomination. The first denomination was the Roman Catholic Church created in 325AD as I already proved (but you continue to deny because it does not agree with you)Quote:
I believe the Church is the Body of Christ
I'd be happy to prove otherwise, using quotes directly out of Catholic writings. Prayer, BTW is a form of worship, and you will find no prayers to anyone but God endorsed in scripture.Quote:
We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture
Then you did not read what I posted.Quote:
No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.
BTW, the Roman Catholic church is described, not in the passage you quoted, but Rev 17:1-6.
I don't understand why OR HOW you manage to twist things I never said sola scriptura contradicts the Bible!
HOW can the Bible contradict the Bible!?
Christ is the head of the body of the church.. which means the body are the members of a ministry within a structure. Christ is known as the foundation as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Try taking all that is being said when refer to scripture 1 Colossians1:24
Col 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;, Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
As for Imbued with His Power: More like Imbued in His service or rule Matthew 28 18 All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
I agree with everything you have said in this message. It reflects very well the teaching of the Church:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 86
Sincerely,
De Maria
Then you should be able to show me where scripture says that man becomes God (CCC Article 460)Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
1. You just shot down Sola Scriptura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
2. And you just contradicted your previous message, you said:
Quote:
I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity).
The Septuagint version of the Old Testament existed before Christ. It includes the Deuterocanonicals, which include the Maccabean books.Quote:
Preaching something does not make it true. BTW, Maccabees is not only not canonical, but the author does not claim inspiration, but rather attributes it to himself alone. Maccabees was added at the council of Trent - but of course you even reject the New Catholic Encyclopedia when it disagrees with you.
Read the thread again. You accused the Church of adding 7 books (message #228). And Nohelp4u reintroduced purgatory into this thread (message #201).Quote:
It seems that you are trying to introduce yet another topic (and false doctrine) to further obfuscate the issue at hand.
Wouldn't it be a better idea, instead of saying that I misrepresent what you say, showing where the misrepresentation is to be found.Quote:
You are having a hard enough time defending what you believe without trying to thoroughly mis-represent what I believe.
After all, you said I misrepresented Sola Scriptura. But the definition you produced is virtually identical to the one I produced.
No, any reasonable person reviewing that exchange will see that you read into the document what you wanted to get out of it. The document does not say that St. Constantine created the Church. And that is what you claimed.Quote:
Then it is not your denomination. The first denomination was the Roman Catholic Church created in 325AD as I already proved (but you continue to deny because it does not agree with you)
The word "prayer", like almost every word in the dictionary, has more than one meaning.Quote:
I'd be happy to prove otherwise, using quotes directly out of Catholic writings. Prayer, BTW is a form of worship, and you will find no prayers to anyone but God endorsed in scripture.
To a Catholic, prayer to the Saints is not worship but request. And we find requests of the Saints throughout the Scriptures:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 14 18 And they began all at once to make excuse. The first said to him: I have bought a farm, and I must needs go out and see it: I pray thee, hold me excused.
Acts Of Apostles 27 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat for your health's sake; for there shall not an hair of the head of any of you perish.
Ephesians 3 13 Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Therefore, we pray to the Saints to request their intercession before God.
Yes, I did.Quote:
Then you did not read what I posted.
1 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will show thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters, 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they who inhabit the earth, have been made drunk with the whine of her whoredom. 3 And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.Quote:
BTW, the Roman Catholic church is described, not in the passage you quoted, but Rev 17:1-6.
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.
No, actually, the Whore of Babylon is not the Catholic Church. . You are most definitely reading that into Scripture. It is in fact, Jerusalem. Let me show you.
Babylon described as a whore:
Revelation 17 1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Israel is described as a whore:
Hosea 9 1Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God,
Thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.
Jerusalem described as a harlot (which is another word for whore):
Isaiah 1 21How is the faithful city become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Ezekiel 16 1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, ….15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Babylon is clothed in finery:
Rev 17 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Jerusalem clothed in finery:
Ez 16 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD. 15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Babylon kills the prophets and saints:
Rev 17 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs
Of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints:
Matthew 23 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Babylon is described as "that great city":
Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.
The "great city" is the city in which Jesus was crucified:
Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.
Rev 17: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication
Acts 4: 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Babylon and Jerusalem are built on seven mountains:
Revelation 17: 9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:
Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.
Babylon is destroyed by fire:
Rev 18: 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire
Jerusalem is destroyed by fire:
Ez 23: 25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
God calls His people out of that city:
Rev 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Paul calls people out of Jerusalem:
Heb 13: 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
The harlot, Jerusalem is redeemed:
Isaiah 2 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Revelation 21: 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
All of that is directly from Scripture. . Try as I might, I couldn't find any reference to Rome as a whore or harlot in Scripture. Try as I might I could find no reference to the Catholic Church as a whore or a harlot in Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
1. You just shot down Sola Scriptura.
2. And you just contradicted your previous message, you said:
-----
NO you are not following his points
Sola scriptura is not ones personal interpretation it is taking a doctrine and backing it WITH scripture IF it can not be backed with scripture then it is false teaching.
Sola scriptura goes by the word not being left to personal interpretation.
I do not understand where you get that it does.
2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
John 10 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;
1 Corinthians 12 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.
John 1 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The man made doctrine called Sola Scriptura contradicts the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Sincerely,
De Maria
Not so. Sola Scriptura says that doctrine is backed by Scriptura ALONE.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The Church agrees that if a doctrine is not backed by Scripture, it is false. That is why Sola Scriptura is false.
However, many people can twist Scripture to their own desires. Scripture is clear that this is possible. Therefore the Church requires that doctrine must ALSO be backed by Tradition.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Very simple. It is you and TJ who tell Catholics to disregard the Church. Why?Quote:
Sola scriptura goes by the word not being left to personal interpretation.
I do not understand where you get that it does.
Because you believe YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture is superior to Church interpretation.
Yet the Bible calls the Church the Pillar of Truth. So how can your interpretation trump Church interpretation?
And that means that you put your interpretation of Scripture even ABOVE Scripture itself.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I found this somewhere --lost the link
According to Phillips, the quotation from Psalm 82:6 agrees
exactly with the Septuagint (81:6) and the Masoretic text.
God's representatives were called "gods. " Additionally, not
only did God call men elohiym but also they were called "sons of
God," a term that emerged later. These humans were those who
should have administered justice according to the Law of God,
and thus represent God's will to the people. It is from that
historical situation that Jesus derived the principle that
divine commissioning permits individuals to bear the divine
title.
John 10:36 then reveals the crux of the argument, and at the
same time the crux of our interpretive dispute; Jesus draws
attention to the work of the Father on His behalf - the Father
sanctified Him and sent Him.
In light of biblical precedent (vv. 34-35) and the work of the
Father on His behalf, Jesus asked, "How can you accuse Me of
blasphemy when I, too, claim the divine title rightfully?" From
what I have read, the words, huios ton theon eimi, have elicited
a far amount of controversy. As I am sure Andre will gleefully
point out, "son" is without the definite article, and working
from that base he will content that Jesus was clarifying the
fact that He was not God and that He never claimed to be equal
with the Father. There are others, however, who attack it from
a different vantage by maintaining that Jesus was merely
silencing His opposition, attacking them through clever
sophistry. "The argument is admittedly ad hominem and indeed is
little better than a play on words, for Jesus claims to be the
'Son of God' in a very different sense." (MacGregor, The Gospel
of John)
if X is
true, then how much more must Y be true.
The only remaining conclusion is that Jesus spoke the truth, and
that He was "one with the Father." His appeal to Scripture is a
bit of a fortiori argument.
According to this view Jesus is repeatedly being misunderstood.
He was a rabbi whose teachings were so novel that their very
uniqueness undermined accurate preservation, particularly as His
words were filtered through the Jewish theology of first and
second century disciples. However, glimpses of Jesus, who
occasionally tried to "set the record straight," have been
preserved (as in the present passage). His words might be
paraphrased as follows:
Does not even your Scripture, which you regard as absolutely
truthful, call human beings "gods"? Then why do you get so
upset and accuse me of blasphemy when I only claim to be "a son"
of God?
Also remember gods is little g and what does the Bible say about the gods of this world?
Tj3,
We become one with God the Son though partaking of the holy Eucharist.
Here also I'll give you Cody's answer to that on para 460 of the CCC.
"This part of the Catechism does not mean that we become omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. But the best and simplest explanation that I can give for this is that to "become God" and be "sharers in [Christ's] divinity" refers to the fact that the individual members of Christ's church make up his body, and thus him.
Remember the words of Jesus to Saul in Acts 9:1-5.
'Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."'
Notice that although Saul was persecuting the followers of Christ, Jesus said he was persecuting HIM.
Furthermore, CCC 460 also refers to our goal of holiness. Here is the full text of 2 Peter 1:4.
"Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire."
So, by becoming free from sin and of the evils in the world, we share in the divine nature. That is, by becoming so holy we become like God and, in a certain sense, become God.
I hope this answered your questions.
With many prayers,
-Cody"
The Church agrees that if a doctrine is not backed by Scripture, it is false. That is why Sola Scriptura is false.
However, many people can twist Scripture to their own desires. Scripture is clear that this is possible. Therefore the Church requires that doctrine must ALSO be backed by Tradition.
As I am saying sola scriptura is not intended for personal interpretation for people to twist.
As I am saying WHAT tradition? Is it backed with scripture?
As I am saying Purgatory doctrine is not backed by scripture but tradition alone.
Sola Scriptura denies a role for Tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
But Scripture doesn't. Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I don't know what you are reading into that, but once again perhaps you do not understand what sola scriptura is. To date you have mis-represented it several times.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
We've been through this. Many different Bibles include non-canonical reference material. And the New Catholic Encyclopedia (among other sources) agree with me. Deny if you wishg - it will not change reality.Quote:
The Septuagint version of the Old Testament existed before Christ. It includes the Deuterocanonicals, which include the Maccabean books.
I accused the church of nothing. I accused your denomination of adding to the Bible. You started the topic of prayer to the dead.Quote:
Read the thread again. You accused the Church of adding 7 books (message #228). And Nohelp4u reintroduced purgatory into this thread (message #201).
I have shown you many times. One can explain these things a hundred times, but unless the recipient reads what is posted, we are no further ahead.Quote:
After all, you said I misrepresented Sola Scriptura. But the definition you produced is virtually identical to the one I produced.
Request is not a prayer, unless that is to a dead person, in which case scripture specifically calls it an abomination.Quote:
To a Catholic, prayer to the Saints is not worship but request. And we find requests of the Saints throughout the Scriptures:
I provided it in my last message, but perhaps you again did not read what I posted.Quote:
Try as I might, I couldn't find any reference to Rome as a whore or harlot in Scripture. Try as I might I could find no reference to the Catholic Church as a whore or a harlot in Scripture.
Communion is symbolic. When I was saved, I was indwelled by the Holy Spirit but that did not make me God.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
... some deleted for brevity...
I don't know who Cody is and it does not matter. I go by what scripture says. Further, Article 460 specifically says that we become God, which is blasphemous. Let me quote it:Quote:
So, by becoming free from sin and of the evils in the world, we share in the divine nature. That is, by becoming so holy we become like God and, in a certain sense, become God.
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
It is very specific and clear it what it says. Saying that it does not mean what it clearly says does not address the questions.
NoHelp4U
Purgatory is NOT backed by tradition alone.
There are many Bib;e verses that support the believe in Purgatory.
Here they are, Check then out.
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I see that you are back to copying off the "Catholic Cheatsheet" on internet :D .
Perhaps it would be best to give credit when you copy and paste someone else's work.
We have been through every one of these, as you know and none of these refer to purgatory. If you want to start another thread, we can examine every one of these in context once again.
Tj3,
The Eucharist is NOT symbolic.
The bible clearly teaches other than what YOU believe about that.
No where does the bible or Jesus say that the Eucharist is symbolic.
Jesus said this IS my body and this IS my blood.
You can twist Scripture all you want to to TRY to change that but you will not successfully do so.
Tj3,
My, my my, does providing information from sources that show what you believe to be wrong unset you that much
That Scripture information has been posted many years for anyone who wants to use it.
It is truth and I will continue to provide it whether you like it or not.
Fred
If sola scriptura denies the role of tradition then what does sola scriptura do when it comes to the traditions verses IN scripture??Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Can you show me a copy of the sola scriptura where it specifically says that exactly?
OH and you haven't explained the verses that I used to speaks against traditions
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I note that you give no reference and if one wishes to make such a claim as you have made, the onus is one you to back it up. We have certainly dealt with John 6 and shown how those who thought that he referred to actual blood and flesh were those who betrayed him.
Let's also look at this passage:
Mark 14:22-26
22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. 25 Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
NKJV
First, note that Jesus was still with them. They were not chewing on His physical body. Second, for him to ask them to eat Him physical would be to call for cannibalism. THird, He is clear that He is referring to drinking of the fruit of the vine - wine - not blood, thus the symbolism.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
If you can find information that shows me to be wrong, I will be quite pleased.
But please take the time to check it out first rather than just copying and pasting from something someone posted on internet. Whoever created this site did a poor job of researching the references.
Just in case you forget, I do know the site:
Christopher Wong
Tom
Tj3,
I have many time provided much scripture passages that prove that the Eucharist is NOT symbolic. The Gospels provide many of Jesus words and statement that show as I mentioned above that Jesus said this IS my body, this IS my blood.
On the other hand you have not and can not provide any bible passage that says that the Eucharist is symbolic.
Fred
No, Fred, you have claimed that it is, but have yet to show any scriptural backup.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
With all due respect, I do not accept your word above scripture.
You have apparently failed to read my last post (270)
Tj3,
Over the years I have provided those Scripture passages and you KNOW very well that I have so DO NOT say that I haven't. In so doing you are once again making false statements.
Just for you I will provide some other then again.
Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25... this is my body... this is my blood.
1 Cor 11:26-30... sinning against the body and blood.
Jn 6:32-58... long discourse on Eucharist.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17... Melchizedek.
Acts 2:42... breaking of bread.
Ps 27:1-2; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Micah 3:3; Rev 17:6,16... symbolic interpretation of Jn 6 inappropriate.
I did not say that you did not copy and paste statements from that website. I said that you have not shown any scriptural backup to validate your claim. Just repeating the same old same old which has been refuted many times is not validation. No matter how many times you copy and paste from that website, Fred, the references do not get any more accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3.
I have that list of passages long before they were ever on any web site.
I and others used them when teaching bible class many years ago and they are still very useful in exposing false or erroneous teaching.
I notice that you like to cut and paste bible scripture passages why it is OK t for you to cut and past things like the quotes you have posted here to day but it is not OK for others to d that?
What males you a privilege character here, Tom.
Do you thing that you are better than everyone else?
Of not then please try to be fair with others.
Thanks,'
Fred
You keep saying that but the definition you presented is very close to the one I presented which is actually Luther's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
In addition, your definition of Sola Scriptura is a doctrine which says that every doctrine must be supported by the standard of Scripture alone.
Yet, your doctrine fails its own standard. Because Sola Scriptura as Scripture is the sole standard of doctrine, can't be found in Scripture.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes the Deuterocanonicals. But it is true many Protestant Bibles still keep the Deuterocanonicals in a section they call Apocrypha. This is further proof thatQuote:
We've been through this. Many different Bibles include non-canonical reference material. And the New Catholic Encyclopedia (among other sources) agree with me. Deny if you wishg - it will not change reality.
1. the ancient Christian Bible included the Deuterocanonicals but Luther took them out.
2. and that Trent did not add them, but confirmed them in Scripture.
Really? Show me. Because I believe my mention of prayer TO THE SAINTS was in response to someone calling it SAINT WORSHIP. In fact, I thought it was YOU (Message #245).Quote:
I accused the church of nothing. I accused your denomination of adding to the Bible. You started the topic of prayer to the dead.
The feeling is mutual.Quote:
I have shown you many times. One can explain these things a hundred times, but unless the recipient reads what is posted, we are no further ahead.
No. Scripture calls divination an abomination.Quote:
Request is not a prayer, unless that is to a dead person, in which case scripture specifically calls it an abomination.
Since Christians who die in Christ are alive in Christ, prayer to Saints is request.
Hebrews 12 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Lets go over it again.Quote:
I provided it in my last message, but perhaps you again did not read what I posted.
Rev 17:1-6
1 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will show thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters, 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they who inhabit the earth, have been made drunk with the whine of her whoredom. 3 And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.
Will you look at that. No mention whatsoever of Rome, nor of the Church AT ALL. As usual, you are reading that into Scripture.
This is why your doctrine of Scripture alone is a false doctrine. It is precisely the methodology you used to impose your prejudices against the Catholic Church into Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I use them in showing how people take scripture out of context to support false doctrine..Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It is okay for anyone. But I think that before anyone does so, if they want their input to add value to a discussion, they should first check out what they are posting - in context - rather than just blindly copying and pasting something somebody posted on a website or something that their denomination said that they are to believe.Quote:
I notice that you like to cut and paste bible scripture passages why it is OK t for you to cut and past things like the quotes you have posted here to day but it is not OK for others to d that?
I note that whenever you cannot deal with the issue, you go after the person.Quote:
What males you a privilege character here, Tom.
Do you thing that you are better than everyone else?
Of not then please try to be fair with others.
Thanks,'
Fred
Actually your definition varies significantly, but for some reason you won't acknowledge that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh! You keep making that false claim.Quote:
Yet, your doctrine fails its own standard. Because Sola Scriptura as Scripture is the sole standard of doctrine, can't be found in Scripture.
Yes they do, and they recognize that the Roman catholic denomination did not do so until the Council of Trent.Quote:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes the Deuterocanonicals.
Here is one example from a book endorsed by the Roman Church and written by a doctor of the Roman Church - from the book "The Glories of Mary"Quote:
Really? Show me. Because I believe my mention of prayer TO THE SAINTS was in response to someone calling it SAINT WORSHIP. In fact, I thought it was YOU (Message #245).
"The holy Church commands a worship peculiar to Mary"
Maybe you are not aware of what necromancy is.Quote:
No. Scripture calls divination an abomination.
This old one :D . Necrmancy refers to those dead in the flesh. Look at 1 Samuel 28 to see how God feels about talking to dead saints.Quote:
Since Christians who die in Christ are alive in Christ, prayer to Saints is request.
Better yet, why don't you show us where speaking to dead saints is endorsed in scripture!
So where is the city on seven hills?Quote:
Will you look at that. No mention whatsoever of Rome, nor of the Church AT ALL. As usual, you are reading that into Scripture.
Since Christians who die in Christ are alive in Christ, prayer to Saints is request.
Die to Christ means to give up your old ways and follow Christ it has NOTHING to do with physical death.
The Bible forbids praying to or through anybody but Jesus
That is where De Marie misunderstands by saying it is no different than asking a friend to pray for you
A. Communicating with people that have passed on is forbidden
B. When you ask Mary to intercede it is through a 'prayer' NOT an 'hey Mary will you pray for me?'
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