Ask Me Help Desk - Can you lose your salvation?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Whether there is agreement amongst people who profess to be Christians is not the issue. Indeed when you have two groups, one who holds strictly to what God said in His written word, and others who add to it by adding denominational traditions and other sources, you will, of necessity, have differences

So are you saying the christians that hold strictly to what God said in his written word are correct and those that add denominational traditions etc. are wrong.

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That is why God gave us His written word to adhere to - it never changes. What Christianity truly is is not what different men and women believe, but rather what the Bible teaches and we are to be conforming our beliefs to what the Bible says.

That is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. You only assume that whoever was transcribing God's word got it right.

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BTW, no Christian ever converted anyone. What scripture tells us to do is to preach God's word, and it is the Holy Spirit who converts by working on the heart.

I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

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I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

Close, but not quite. The Holy Spirit is real, and works on people's hearts. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, no one can come to God.

John 6:43-44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Maggie 3

Paul tells about an event that must happen befor the great day of the Lord arrives.
2 Thessalonians 2:3&4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for thatDay will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "falling away" must accur. Most Bible scholars believe this refers to a "great apostasy"
of the church, when a large portion of the church decends into heresy and ungodly living.

This sounds like we can lose our salvation, we all have choices until our time is up.
Make sure you are staying close to Jesus in prayer and keeping His teaching.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but I do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not. There are many denomination who have changed sound doctrine to make their congregation happy. In 1962 there was a gallup poll done on whether people believe the bible is absolute truth... something like 84% said yes... same poll in 1992 and it had gone down to 30% that believe the bible is absolute truth. I feel certain the statistics would be less than 30% now. It is happening before our eyes... Those that are saved remain saved but people are perishing for lack of knowledge and our churches across America ( in general) refuse to teach truth. That is my opinion.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but i do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not.

I'd like to be clear about terminology. When a person "loses" something, they not aware of when it went away, or where. I do not believe that a person can lose their salvation. There are some who believe that if you sin, knowingly or unknowingly, that you can cease to be saved. There are some who will say that we cannot know that we are saved (IFred has told me many times that this is his position), even though scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.

If we can have assurance of salvation, and if, as scripture says, no one can snatch us out of His hand, then we cannot "lose" our salvation. We can, however, knowingly turn away from it.

Who, according to scripture is free? It is those who are saved - can we then say that it is only those who are unsaved that are free enough to accept Christ, but those who are freed in Christ cannot decide to turn away? That would mean that it is only the unsaved who have freewill, which is contrary to scripture which says that the unsaved are slaves to sin, but we are bondservants to Christ.

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this... drives me NUTS. But you will have to changes your position... lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this...drives me NUTS. but you will have to changes your position....lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

We can't agree on everything ;)

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

Maggie 3,
The Falling Away. Very good post, that.
I agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the will look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.

Jesus greatest commandment love thy neighbor as thyself, his sole purpose was to come to earth and show us how to live and to always embrace and show love to on another.

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Originally Posted by lighterrr

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the wil look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.

Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.

Falling away that's a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean? I view it as the human races time to tap into the light of the creator within and evolve and have a more elevated level of counciousness

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Originally Posted by lighterrr

falling away thats a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean?

It means that people are turning away from God and His word.

lighterrr,
Jesus main purpose of coming to earth was for the salvation of mankind for eternal punishment.
His second purpose was to teach us by word and deed all that the bible tells us He did.
Yes, the falling away has begun. The latest USA statistics show that the USA is beginning to do what Europe has already done and that is to switch more and more to secularism.
The statistics show that 10% fewer people claim to believe in God.
How very sad that is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Folks... I think this thread has gone too long.

Much had been said here, much had been read. People shared their personal experiences, their thinkings, their ideas, their interpretations and their opinions. After all this, I think we should by now have be clear on what is salvation and how to get it? Can we lose it or can we not? We now know what is sin and intentional sin. We know now how to deal with the present or past sin.

I think we should stop this thread and start a new discussion because one thing is for sure that there is no instrument in theology or science which can tell us whether we have salvation or not. It is known to God only and we will know it when time comes.

So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus.

Triund,
You said...
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

LOL... people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. Well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

You know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes... you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidentally the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption... ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. Good and SMARTER. The bible warns us... doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question... do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.

The work of salvation is totally Gods. "The author and finisher of our faith."IF there was something you could do to "earn" salvation, then there would also be something you could do to "not earn" salvation. "No man comes to the Father but that the Holy Spirit draws him."

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Originally Posted by classyT

LOL....people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

ya know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes....you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidently the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption....ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. good and SMARTER. The bible warns us....doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question ....do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.

cozyk

I agree the age of aquarius which meaning enlightenment is among us and that is great because people will start to as why and question the bible. That is great, you know history tells us that groups that questioned the bible in the past where often frowned upon, but now the internet allows anyone to access information on spirituality and a lot of people are now minding information that makes sense. Really salvation is not found in ANY religion or church, the very salvation you seek is and has always been and will always be within you.

The gift of salvation is love from the Father, and in return we are asked for love. A willing heart to love, and be obedient to HIS will.

The Bible is the WORD made flesh that showed us the way. The fear would be that we of choice are blinded, and do not hear HIS voice.

The rules are the light of HIS will, to walk according to HIS teaching and eating from what would be in likeness to the Tree of Life rather then being as Eve and Adam were shown to have done.

Christ set us free from the curse, and has given us the free will choice to walk in righteousness and as servants of God. (1 Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive )

Dominion and power was given to Christ, and He will lead the way. Choice is to follow HIM, and not take of sin.. Repent go forward in HIS mercy and forgivenss , and do it out of a heart of love for HIS love.

Prayer of heart in asking that you can be all that He created you to be, in HIS image of righteousness. Put on the armor of HIS strength and ask that evil bow down and flee from you.

May HIS grace hold stedfast in each heart unto godliness known in the gospel.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Triund,
You said....
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

Thanks Fred.

God bless you,

Richard

Cozyk,

LOL.. the wizzard of OZ? Hmmmm? Well, if I recall correctly Dorothy was dreamin.. and Glenda wasn't real. If we always had it, then the Lord Jesus died for NOTHING.

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Originally Posted by lighterrr

Really salvation is not found in ANY religion or church, the very salvation you seek is and has always been and will always be within you.

lighterrr,

Are you claiming that evil does not exist, because if eveyone has salvation in them then why is there evil in any of us? Do you believe satan beguiled Eve when she took from the tree of knowledge?

From what you have said before, you believe that man was created in God's image. Is that where you stop, and no longer believe what else was written?

Salvation is love from God that comes to us by Christ.. Salvation became that Tree of Life that Eve and Adam neglected to eat from... A tree with branches that are cut off if not fruitful.

If you claim there is evil, then you also know that salvation can be lost when someone does not do the righteousness of HIS Father. When he decides to do the lust of this world, and live in his delusion that God will permit, if they turn their back on HIS love.

How much of God's Word do you live by?

ClassyT – so, in this thread we were asking the question, can one lose his salvation? It is my opinion that before this question even gets off the ground it is already assuming something incorrectly and I will attempt to argue for this in the following.

Modern Christianity often thinks of salvation as asking Jesus into your heart or praying the sinner's prayer. I said on the post that we often have a very superficial understanding of what salvation really is and so because this is true, our depth of communicating the gospel with each other as an idea is also superficial. When I've heard people discuss personal security or assurance of salvation, people will ask others “did you ask Jesus into your heart and mean it?” That person responds “yes, I did” and the other will say “then you are saved” The other side of the argument—those who argue you can lose your salvation—is just as superficial in their understanding of salvation. Their language is like this “if you fall back into sin, it is proof that you have lost your salvation.” They would also say things like “if you stop going to church or if you fall into some grievous sin, you have lost your salvation.” Both of these views, in my opinion, fail to recognize very profound points that the apostles and Jesus made in the New Testament. I will attempt to explain those points in turn.

For those who believe that salvation comes through praying the sinner's prayer or by inviting Jesus into their heart, they seem to have only understood one facet of coming to faith. They do rightly understand that making a commitment to follow Jesus ultimately comes from the heart…that they have rightly understood. But part of what they do not understand is that the gospel message itself is one that people do not ordinarily jump at with great enthusiasm. What I mean is, the message of Jesus and the apostles is very difficult to receive apart from God's intervention because it is calling me a sinner and an enemy of God. The gospel tells me that I deserve to be destroyed. I don't know about you but I don't initially find that kind of news all that exciting. Moreover, the gospel is also calling me to die to myself. Again, this isn't immediately good news either. Jesus is making a claim to have died for me because I am deserving of God's wrath and that if I am to follow him, my life will be filled with suffering and sorrow en route to the kingdom of God. I have to be willing to deny my sinful impulses to live for my own fleshly desires—to repudiate sin in my life and to take up my cross and follow Jesus even if it means dying for him. It seems to me that our Christian culture has modified the true gospel and made it more palatable for the average person. We tell people “come to Jesus and he will solve all of your problems. He has a perfect plan for your life.” Well, God's plan is perfect all right, but in our culture we are conditioned to think that by “perfect” it means that our marriage will be strong, our careers will be a success, and our lives will be filled with happiness and contentment. But that is a worldly perspective and not a biblical one. If we tell people that Jesus loves them and that he wants to fix their empty lives and fulfill his perfect plan for them, what rational person would reject that invitation? But that is not the gospel message. But people will say “yeah, but Jesus said 'I have come that you may have life; and that you may have it more abundantly.'” Yes, he did say that but look at the apostles. They all died violent deaths. The book of Hebrews mentions in Ch 11 that some were put into prison, beaten, sawn in two, and killed with the sword. Why? “…so that they might rise again to a better life.” What Jesus meant by an abundant life is life in the age to come…life in the kingdom of God. He never promised that he would give us an abundant life in this world. On the contrary, Paul says: “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.” But why? Why are we called to suffer as well as believe? Because as James puts it: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” The idea of suffering is that it is meant to bring us to maturity in our faith because that is how God has made it. Our faith and its withstanding of trials and suffering is worth more than anything in this world.

So I guess the natural question one may ask at this point is, can someone who prays the sinner's prayer be saved? Absolutely... but I do not think that encouraging someone to simply ask Jesus into his heart without explaining to him what making a commitment to God looks like is very misleading and dishonest. We ought to tell someone that following God requires one to totally deny himself and learn about God and his ways, not to look to God to solve my problems and have him grant me his perfect will for my life. If God chooses to solve my problems and sees to it that my life is prospered, that is his will. But he may leave us destitute at times and bring much pain and sorrow in this life. We have never been promised that our lives will go well. On the contrary, Jesus said that “in this world you will have sorrow. But I have overcome the world.”

Okay, so I have just argued that our gospel must be more honest and in keeping with the tradition of Jesus and the apostles. Now as it relates to eternal security, one side argues that simply praying the sinner's prayer is all it takes to make it to heaven. Well, one can pray it and become right with God on the basis of his faith but that prayer may not truly indicate the true condition of that person's heart. In the parable of the sower, Jesus lays out an argument for what sort of person enters into the kingdom of God:

“A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.”

Many people debate what is meant by the parable. Some argue it is talking about different types of believers. But let Jesus interpret the parable himself:

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”

Two things Jesus says here illustrate the point I am making:

1) time of testing
2) holding fast in an honest and good heart

As I understand this, Jesus is explaining two realities in the world. The first is that God tests our faith. The second is that a genuine believer is one that holds fast to his faith with a good and honest heart—he ultimately does not turn away from his faith.

God tests our faith not for his sake but for our own. A person can pray the sinner's prayer and may conclude that he is now right with God. Well, that may be true but it may not be true. As the parable of the sower explains, some receive the word of God with joy. They are excited about the gospel and may tell everyone about it. They may even participate in bible studies and get involved in church. But as Jesus says, “they believe for a time but in time of testing they fall away.” Ultimately, even though they asked Jesus into their hearts, when push came to shove, they didn't really want to follow Jesus because the cost was too great. At this juncture, here is the critical question: was this person ever saved? My answer is…….NO. Maybe that is striking but look at how the parable goes down. In the end, the only one who is saved is the one who not only believed at the beginning but holds fast to his faith until the end. That is the person who is saved. James puts it this way: “Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.” So then, the New Testament picture is that those who persevere in faith through trials until the end will receive eternal life.

The hope we have while we confront these trials is found in various statements made by Jesus and the apostles. John 10: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” Jesus clearly states here that those who belong to him he has the power to keep and they will not be snatched away (by the evil one). Paul says in Philippians 1: “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

The work Paul is talking about here is the fulfillment of one's salvation. The work of God begins with the grace of faith and the fulfillment of his promises to save us. Ephesians 2: “for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing but is a gift of God, not of works; so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

So, I want to summarize what I have said so far against the first side of the argument that says “pray the sinners prayer and you will be saved.” What I have intended to put forth so far is that while a prayer to God can be a good indicator of my real heartfelt commitment, the bible is saying that time will ultimately tell whether we are really saved. Our problem is that our hearts are deceitful and we may not really know whether we are saved or not because we may have been following God for the wrong motives. Or perhaps we are just not sure that we really meant it when we prayed to God for forgiveness. The way God graces us with assurance is to test our faith. When we survive trials and struggles of faith with our faith intact, then we can begin to have confidence that God is truly at work in us. But it is unwise of us to point to one prayer in our lives for proof that we are saved because that is not the indicator the bible is setting forth for that kind of proof. The proof is in my commitment to God to follow him even if he means my death. When I have come to a place of deep-seeded commitment and no turning back, the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And when we have come to that place in our faith, the words of Paul comfort us:

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Bottom line is that if we are truly children of God, God promises that nothing in this world will keep us from his love. Not even myself and my own sin. Because it is he that has committed himself to bringing those who believe in him to eternal life since it is he that has graced them with saving faith to begin with. It begins with God and ends with God and we are merely recipients of God's grace. That is how I see it. I will deal with the other side of the argument at another time.

Sincerely.

Jake

There is so much really to comment on. I agree with you.. as usual.

I don't think this topic is a complicated as we make it though. I think it is a simple decision but it is a HEART decision and it takes faith. Many make a head decision and then call themselves "Christians. Some put themselves under the law or a bunch of man made rules and when they can't follow it, they boogie claiming christianity doesn't work. Many are looking for answers to lifes problems and they "ask Jesus in their hearts" until things don't go like they wanted or they find a better path of enlightenment or even a spiritual experience that makes them "feel" something. These people were NEVER Christians and i think that is why we run into so many who say they were believers but turned their back on Christ. I am convinced that the Lord Jesus NEVER knew them. ( Yes Tom, (Tj3) i am speaking of the Jews that Paul wrote to in Hebrews who went back to sacrificing and the Law, they were NOT saved, they tasted, they had HEAD knowledge)

Personally I accepted the Lord young...maybe 4 maybe younger. I simply believed it. I didn't understand everything about what happened when I received Christ ( Christ in me, i was placed IN HIM, sealed with the Holy spirit ect...) I just knew at the ripe ol age of 4 that I was a sinner. AND I don't think anyone can be saved if they don't recognize their sin and their inability to "fix" the problem.

I think scripture is clear that salvation occurs at the moment a person believes with the HEART and I think you have clarified the difference better than I ever could.

jakester, very good, I agree and thank you
So much for sharing your wisdom and your
Time with us.

God Bless You, Maggie 3

Classy,
People have long been known to outsmart themselves.
Even back in Jesus' time on earth he did not chose the smartest people who did that.
Rather he chose simple fishermen and the like who were less likely to outsmart themselves.
To me, a person who thinks he is smarter than the Holy Bible is doing just that; outsmarting themselves.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jakester,
Thanks so much for your work on this question with that very good post.
I agree with you and the parable of sowing seed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Jake

There is so much really to comment on. I agree with you.. as usual.

I don't think this topic is a complicated as we make it though. I think it is a simple decision but it is a HEART decision and it takes faith. Many make a head decision and then call themselves "Christians. Some put themselves under the law or a bunch of man made rules and when they can't follow it, they boogie claiming christianity doesn't work. Many are looking for answers to lifes problems and they "ask Jesus in their hearts" until things don't go like they wanted or they find a better path of enlightenment or even a spiritual experience that makes them "feel" something. These people were NEVER Christians and i think that is why we run into so many who say they were believers but turned their back on Christ. I am convinced that the Lord Jesus NEVER knew them. ( Yes Tom, (Tj3) i am speaking of the Jews that Paul wrote to in Hebrews who went back to sacrificing and the Law, they were NOT saved, they tasted, they had HEAD knowledge)

Personally I accepted the Lord young...maybe 4 maybe younger. I simply believed it. I didn't understand everything about what happened when I received Christ ( Christ in me, i was placed IN HIM, sealed with the Holy spirit ect...) I just knew at the ripe ol age of 4 that I was a sinner. AND I don't think anyone can be saved if they don't recognize their sin and their inability to "fix" the problem.

I think scripture is clear that salvation occurs at the moment a person believes with the HEART and I think you have clarified the difference better than i ever could.

I have to spread some love around but I agree with you and think that it is encouraging to know that others see this reality at work in life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

They do rightly understand that making a commitment to follow Jesus ultimately comes from the heart…that they have rightly understood. But part of what they do not understand is that the gospel message itself is one that people do not ordinarily jump at with great enthusiasm. What I mean is, the message of Jesus and the apostles is very difficult to receive apart from God's intervention because it is calling me a sinner and an enemy of God.

Jakester, The love of Christ, and the Word being at work in everyone is pleasing to hear. There is no doubt in that reality of comfort. If I could, I would like to make reference to what the light does for our path, and says in scriptures which tell us of a willing love that goes to God in return.

We know that satan works at imprisoning by temptation with material lust and his prideful ways. We also know that his pride was recognized by God, and it caused the division in what is known as godliness and evil.

From the beginning shown in example of God's request, God wants us to willingly receive by choice, the Word and to have it incline within our heart which incine means away from evil ways. And to hear HIS voice as you noted in John 10.

In( Ezekiel 3:10) it says: Son of man all MY WORDS that I speak receive in your heart and hear with your ears. And in (Ezekiel 3:11) whether children will hear or forbear do speak the words that God wants them to hear. Tell them the Word of God because each can be in captivity or imprisonment with satan ways.

God made us all watch men of our ways in the hope of that life of salvation, and the grace/love that was sent to set us free from a curse. The price of that freedom was Christ in HIS blood shed. Christ also did show us HIS way, and told us to follow HIM by denying the filthy way of our own flesh(Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9:23).
HIS way in righteousness.(1 King 8:37)

Should we warn anyone of their filthy way? Yes, we should always warn them because that is part of the watchman's duty. Therefore hear God's Word and give Warning, make it known. (Eze 3:18) says when I say the wicked shalt surely die. And you did not give warning, nor speak to warn the wicked ways which could save his life. Then the same wicked man shall die "but" I will require at thine hand.

On the other side of that (Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.) So spreading the word is a righteous act of loving God and loving HIS children that are our brothers and sister.

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Originally Posted by jakester

But people will say “yeah, but Jesus said 'I have come that you may have life; and that you may have it more abundantly.'” Yes, he did say that but look at the apostles. They all died violent deaths. The book of Hebrews mentions in Ch 11 that some were put into prison, beaten, sawn in two, and killed with the sword. Why? “…so that they might rise again to a better life.” What Jesus meant by an abundant life is life in the age to come…life in the kingdom of God. He never promised that he would give us an abundant life in this world. On the contrary, Paul says: “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.” But why? Why are we called to suffer as well as believe? Because as James puts it: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” The idea of suffering is that it is meant to bring us to maturity in our faith because that is how God has made it. Our faith and its withstanding of trials and suffering is worth more than anything in this world.

God's promise is of reaping, and the trying and suffering are things we reap from our own choices whether blessing or correction. (2 Cr 9:6 Gal 6:7) It is intended to build us into what God created us to be. To be enriched, and thankful for HIS work in us.

And I include this in the parable of the sower, where the seed of HIS WORD is determine by your own choices. Whether that seed grows or becomes capitive in satan. The Kingdom of heaven or the permitted delusion of what each were permitted by what was in their heart. A failed growth in that seed, can come from satan's temptation taken instead of God's image of righteousness, and some will take that offer in a material worm just as it is written.

So what is faith? What does faith entail? Is faith our part in trusting and practicing the Word of God? Is it hearing the voice that says follow Me? Is it following the the righteous way? Is it assurance of HIS worthiness? Is it confession in Christ as the begotten Son of God? Yes because each of these is the act of trust in GOD. With the works in doing what we hold in heart of godliness which was profitable by HIS WORD.

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Originally Posted by jakester

The first is that God tests our faith.

God tests our faith not for his sake but for our own.

But as Jesus says, “they believe for a time but in time of testing they fall away.”

Where is this found in the scripture that God tests us or our faith? I get that some think God tested Job, but it says God permitted satan knowing Job's heart of love, trust, and faith. It was an example showing us how to remain stedfast. Examples throughout scripture whether in question as to why a man is blind or what took place with Job gives us the awareness of what the WORD is teaching. And Satan was not permitted to tempt Job more then what he could bear to remain faithful. How faithful is that,WOW!

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

James puts it this way: “Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.” So then, the New Testament picture is that those who persevere in faith through trials until the end will receive eternal life.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations

It is an individual's own free will that follows lust by satan's temptations and they fall to the enticing way of satan

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Cr 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

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Originally Posted by jakester

Bottom line is that if we are truly children of God, God promises that nothing in this world will keep us from his love. Not even myself and my own sin. Because it is he that has committed himself to bringing those who believe in him to eternal life since it is he that has graced them with saving faith to begin with. It begins with God and ends with God and we are merely recipients of God's grace. That is how I see it. I will deal with the other side of the argument at another time.

Romans 8:19-21 the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

Children of God are predestinate by a predestinate calling from God. Predestinate to answer that calling, and predestinated in a free will to answer.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Whom he predestinate: he did prestinate to be in the image of HIS SON

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[QUOTE=sndbay;1716628]Where is this found in the scripture that God tests us or our faith? I get that some think God tested Job, but it says God permitted satan knowing Job's heart of love, trust, and faith. It was an example showing us how to remain stedfast. Examples throughout scripture whether in question as to why a man is blind or what took place with Job gives us the awareness of what the WORD is teaching. And Satan was not permitted to tempt Job more then what he could bear to remain faithful. How faithful is that,WOW!

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations

It is an individual's own free will that follows lust by satan's temptations and they sound enticing

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

sandbay - the word temptation by itself conjures up ideas of someone enticing another to do evil. In James 1, his first use of the word temptation (probably more aptly translated trial) in Greek is peirasmos which means to test. Here James is talking about testing one's faith to see what sort of faith it is... whether it is real or not. That is the sort of trial he has in mind. However, knowing that some detractors might interpret him incorrectly, he addresses that issue by moving the conversation from remaining steadfast in faith while enduring trials to dealing with temptation to sin. Some people could misunderstand what James is saying by saying something like this: "I was tempted to steal that guy's watch the other day and I did it because God "tempted" me." James is saying with respect to sin, "no, God doesn't tempt you to sin. That's your own heart tempting you." God doesn't test any man to sin but he tests his faith in God and I am arguing that those are two very different issues but because the word temptation is used in both cases, it sounds like James is talking about the same thing. But if you look at the context of what he is saying, I think it is clearer.

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Originally Posted by jakester

sandbay - the word temptation by itself conjures up ideas of someone enticing another to do evil. .

Yes, something evil is tempting the individual. In no way does it mean God uses evil to tempt or test anyone. And the temptation that satan puts in the ear of each individual would try their faith. But again it is not God that tries the faith of HIS children. God only give warning in saying keep watch that temptation does come and evil entices. Paul tells us that he fears that like Eve satan might beguiled us from the simplicity of Christ. And that simplicity is that we hear Christ voice, that we walk in HIS righteousness, and work of faith and love.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God has called us to follow HIM instead unto righteousness.

1 Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Yes, something evil is tempting the individual. In no way does it mean God uses evil to tempt or test anyone. And the temptation that satan puts in the ear of each individual would try their faith. But again it is not God that tries the faith of HIS children. God only give warning in saying keep watch that temptation does come and evil entices. Paul tells us that he fears that like Eve satan might beguiled us from the simplicity of Christ. And that simplicity is that we hear Christ voice, that we walk in HIS righteousness, and work of faith and love.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God has called us to follow HIM instead unto righteousness.

1 Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Hey, sndbay - well, it is clear that we do not see this the same way at all. God does test the faith of his people. He tested Abraham's faith when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Moses said that God "tested" Israel in the Wilderness so that they would know that man does not live off bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God:

"The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land that the Lord swore to give to your fathers. And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord."

Again, sndbay, there's a difference between our being tested by God for our maturity of faith and Satan tempting us to sin. These are completely different concepts.

I'm off this thread now.

jakester,
I must agree with you.
God does test us and He also allows Satan to put us to the test through temptation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by jakester

. And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.

According to scripture the years in the wilderness was because they had done evil. Their faith fell to follow temptation. Punishment was God's anger that they reap what they had sown until all that generation was consumed = died off, destroyed (uncleanness) When we turn our back on the Lord and do not follow HIS image of righteousness, these things will happen. (choice = reap = blessing or correction)

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord."

The Lord teaching them,(make you know) to enrich their lives. And I can understand the struggle that was permitted in what took place to teach them that life is a struggle. It will be difficulty, so the Lord suffers them to prove them in a path of goodness.

Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Deu 8:16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

Again, sndbay, there's a difference between our being tested by God for our maturity of faith and Satan tempting us to sin. These are completely different concepts.

I'm off this thread now.

jasester what I am saying, there is a difference in teaching and provoked. "God does not provoke."

I do agree the Lord did prove Abraham. But it also says, so to know that Abraham did fear the Lord. How it is, that the all knowing God did not already know the mind of Abraham (or) was it God did know Abraham's mind of assumption and permitted it? Was it actually to teach and example willing, trusting, faithful heart that was seen in Abraham that prove his goodness and faith in God. What is the teaching for us, other then not to fear anything other then God. (willing trusting loving faithful heart)

Eph 5:9-13 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Thanks jasester it has been an edifying discussion that does give light..

sndbay,
I do believe that God does test us or allows the devil to do so from time to time.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
I do believe that God does test us or allows the devil to do so from time to time.
Fred

Purely because you have said "or" is where the question lies

God's goodness endureth continually, and in (James 1:13) God said let no man say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God. Because God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does HE tempt any man with evil.

Even in Abraham's teaching we have to look at what Abraham continually felt when he took his son to be the offering before God. Abraham trusted God, love God, and remained faithful to God because he believed in God's righteousness.(God knows best) God proved Abraham's belief by showing Abraham how his heart of love was correct and pleasing to God. God proves us in thankfullness and assurance with goodness. (the question is can any of us today say we trust God to that same prove as Abraham did)

I believe satan tempts and provokes wickedness, and as I said we have been warned throughtout scripture concerning his wickness .

Jesus in scripture was told to say when He found the disciples sleeping. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak. Watch, stay aware of satan's wickedness. And was Jesus correct, was Jesus teaching the disciples, proved to their weakness Jesus was taken by wickness.

Take care Fred, always enjoy talking with you

Christians still disagreeing. It just goes to show, you can find scripture to support whatever you want to believe.

Cozyk They were disagreeing in Pauls's day too. There is nothing new under the sun. What is your point? Does this justify your beliefs that Christianity doesn't work? Don't look a man cozky we are flawed and screwy... everyone wll stand before a Holy God and be asked "What did YOU do with Christ?" you can't point the finger and say well I would have believed but those darn Christians argued over doctrine... Everyone is ultimately accountable and will stand alone.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Cozyk They were disagreeing in Pauls's day too. There is nothing new under the sun. What is your point? Does this justify your beliefs that Christianity doesn't work? Don't look a man cozky we are flawed and screwy....everyone wll stand before a Holy God and be asked "What did YOU do with Christ?" you can't point the finger and say well i would have believed but those darn Christians argued over doctrine...Everyone is ultimately accountable and will stand alone.

It does not justify that it doesn't work, it justifies that it is wishy washy and left up to personal interpretation. I agree that man is flawed and screwy. And man wrote the bible. And man is struggling to interprete it correctly.
I also agree with you that everyONE will stand before God, and everyONE is accountable for their actions , and everyONE has a heart and a conscience that guides their behavior. That is the first hand voice of God. You can decide to follow it, or not. It's between YOU and God. Not you. And God, and what someone else's interpretation of what they read.

Cozyk,

WEll I disagree. It isn't wishy washy... MAN is. There is an answer... God has it. The problem with many Christians is they are brought up a certain way and they just go with it without really getting in the Word and finding out for themselves. Heck I have played devils advocate with Christians, and have given them some difficult questions ( they didn't know I WAS a christian) and they couldn't defend their faith. They didn't know what book or chapter to go to. They didn't know the difference from Grace and Law. Many christians accept the Lord and believe everything they are taught without question. So don't look at the BIBLE and say IT is wishy washy... trust me, it isn't God's fault.