[QUOTE=Morganite]Clearly Jesus DID identify himself as "I AM," which is why he was charged with blasphemy.


I respectful beg to differ..
The text and context of John 8 is about Abraham the father of the Hebrews and thereby the Jews..
Jesus presents himself to be of more importance than Abraham and that's why they declare him to be blasphemous.. There is nothing in Jewish literature then of now that distinguishes God by the term " Ego Eimi" except the one instance with Moses..
This interchange is rendered " ego Eimi" in the Greek text but not so in the Hebrew text..
So any implication that Jesus is referring to this single text of Exodus is pretty remote..
In the Greek Grammar the use of " ego eimi" without a subject requires the assumption of a subject.. If you look at other uses of the words " ego eimi" in the scriptures including John you will find a subject " I am the light" " I am the way"
Or when used of the man born blind who says " ego eimi" being rendered correctly from Greek to English " I am He" or " I am the one"
This statement of Jesus requires the inclusion of the subject.. and in this case it would be something like " Before Abraham was the one I am the one" and they took up stones to throw at him... Why? Because he was blaspheming their tradition and beliefs that Abraham was the Father of the nation...
If you look at Paul you will see he too understands this..
The promise was to Abraham and through Abraham's seed.This seed According to Paul is Jesus and we inherit because of and through Jesus.. The promise made to Abraham..
But Jesus indicates that The promise existed before it was made to Abraham.. It existed back at the beginning with The words declared to the devil...
That Jesus would Crush the head of the devil.. This indicating to most that Jesus would defeat the devil and gain dominion.. And this we inherit by faith..
Its very clear that Jesus is not trying to establish his deity.. To do that he would have been and could have been much clearer..
To Jesus there is one true God.. His Father... And he is one with His God and Father as we are called to be one with them..
No I suggest that the church is trying to read too much into this dialogue with the Jews who would never accept the idea that a man is The God..
Like many texts that have questions when it comes to theology.. The idea that Jesus is God did not become a major issue for some time. And for sure was not presented as such by Paul.. His main concern as with the other apostles was to declare the son of the God the bringer of freedom from sin and reconciliation with The God. And the power and authority given Jesus over the whole of Creation..

So I must disagree that the text of John 8 carries with it an attachment to Exodus 3.. This "I am" theory is not carried by the Hebrew/Jewish people...

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

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Can you tell me what Glory is and what Glory Jesus had within his Father before the world was?
I don't believe glory is a substance it is rather a way in which a thing is apprehended..
It's a thing that is attributed...

Jesus never said He is the Father. Is He deity?

Rev 1:10-15
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
(KJV)

From reading this, I think so.

Jesus explained: “I said, I am the Son of God.” (John 10:36, AV)

And yet if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me. 17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. (john 8:16-18)

Jesus said: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

“My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.”—John 4:34.
He said: “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30)

“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me." (John 14:1)

But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me. 37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure; (John 5:36, 37)

Need More? There are plenty more scriptures where Jesus claims to be sent from one higher than he is. He claims to be the Son of God, not God himself.

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Jesus could have said, 'before Abraham was I AM' or
Again the self identity that is common language not a theological declaration of deity.. The Greek again uses the phrase " Ego Eimi" without object.. The translators ADD THE OBJECT.. I am HE..
Before Abraham became the one I am the one..
This makes sense in and off itself..
Jesus was the one through whom all the promises and prophecies would find their fulfillment.. He was the one for whom al things were made..
" All things where made on because of him and for him.."

Now Abraham indeed was the one from whom the Hebrews identified their origin as a people.. So to all intents and purposes he was seen as a head..
PAul himself explains this idea that the Jews held.That they thought they would gain life because they were descendents of Abraham.. He clearly states that this would not be.BUt they clearly held this Idea.. The same that they would be reflecting upon when Jesus spoke

The blasphemous claim when speaking of Jesus " making himself Equal with God"
The word might well imply
"Equal Standing" Which would reflect the authority that Jesus says he had..
And would keep the thought completely Jewish and trinitarian..

God was in Christ reconciling the world..
God was not in the rest of Mankind but in the one who came forth from the Father to redeem fallen man.. God was indeed with us , in Christ.. And God can be with you if we have Died with him and been raised to life and become partakers of the divine nature..

Not a common title and only relevant as we look for evidence to support the man created theory of God being three in person and one in being..
But Jesus only ever speaks of God as one person.. His Father.. So with that in mind one must approach the scripture guided by this..
Jesus clarifies the the misapprehension of the Jews.. " Why do you say I Blasphemy because I call myself the son of The God.."
Jesus is the life through whom the life of God is imparted to us... " I am the vine you are the Branches"
My Father is the vine dresser..

Now did Moses write in picture form?
That's not provable either way..
He was in fact a Egyptian and so educated.. They used picture form.. The Phoenicians used picture form... Had the Jews developed beyond them??
Good Question..

Honestly, the zeal you guys show for purporting "the truth" sickens me to no end. You believe that everyone who disagrees with you is out on some agenda to support something they know is a lie, or that they don't care about the truth. You Bibliolatrists sicken me to no end, even beyond that of my death. The fruit of your doctrines and your polemics is nothing but death and stillborn souls who buy into your crap, that entire system of sensational and incredible beliefs soaked in myths and politically altered interests are based on some synthesized "ancient" anthology.

If there is a hell, I will see you there. May the blood be on your hands since you continue to grow this poisonous fruit, the blood of my soul as it is forever frying in the fire you say that it there. I have renounced all things related to the Christian faith save the fact that there is a God and that He alone saved the world through his UNIQUELY born son, by means of his (The Father's) Sacred Spirit, which by the way... The Trinity is sickening also. Is simple math so hard for you to calculate? 1+1+1 = 3. For centuries on end, "the church" kept promoting this kind of stupidity. The church said the earth was flat and was at the center of the universe, in actuality the earth is a sphere and far from the center of the universe. And yet, the church still still trying to promote a dogma that teaches 1+1+1 = 1, when the world says it is three.

It's pretty sad when one simple mathmatical problem can win the debate for the world in who is smarter and thus more apt to know the truth 10 miles away, whereas the church couldn't recognize the truth if it came up and rubbed itself in the church's face.

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Originally Posted by Guest

Honestly, the zeal you guys show for purporting "the truth" sickens me to no end. You believe that everyone who disagrees with you is out on some agenda to support something they know is a lie, or that they don't care about the truth. You Bibliolatrists sicken me to no end, even beyond that of my death. The fruit of your doctrines and your polemics is nothing but death and stillborn souls who buy into your crap, that entire system of sensational and incredible beliefs soaked in myths and politically altered interests are based on some synthesized "ancient" anthology.

If there is a hell, I will see you there. May the blood be on your hands since you continue to grow this poisonous fruit, the blood of my soul as it is forever frying in the fire you say that it there. I have renounced all things related to the Christian faith save the fact that there is a God and that He alone saved the world through his UNIQUELY born son, by means of his (The Father's) Sacred Spirit, which by the way...The Trinity is sickening also. is simple math so hard for you to calculate? 1+1+1 = 3. For centuries on end, "the church" kept promoting this kind of stupidity. The church said the earth was flat and was at the center of the universe, in actuality the earth is a sphere and far from the center of the universe. And yet, the church still still trying to promote a dogma that teaches 1+1+1 = 1, when the world says it is three.

It's pretty sad when one simple mathmatical problem can win the debate for the world in who is smarter and thus more apt to know the truth 10 miles away, whereas the church couldn't recognize the truth if it came up and rubbed itself in the church's face.

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BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAHAHAHAHA! Now that is what I call straight up! :D

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Originally Posted by Guest

You Bibliolatrists sicken me to no end

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Not to be nit picky, but wouldn't it be "Bibliolaters"? I agree that bibliolatry is definitely a sin, but I don't think I'm as mad at them as you are.

In all of this, I hear nothing from anyone dealing with the Holy Ghost. Identified as proceeding from the Father, He speaks to the Church, giving divine direction. The idea of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is difficult to explain, probably because our understanding is imperfect. The following passages relate to this discussion.

John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
(KJV)

I Jn 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
(KJV)

II Jn 1:9
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(KJV)

I't is simple ,sinful mankind had to have a perfect man to redeem us from certain death that is sin. So JEHOVAH GOD sent his son to earth to #1 Teach the good news about the bible and how JEHOVAH GOD has a plan for the earth that he had created and will never be destroyed, and also to die for us so that we have a chance to gain everlasting life here on this planet.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

The idea of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is difficult to explain, probably because our understanding is imperfect.

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I can see how that would make it harder.

His message was, "Have faith in Me, repent, and you will have eternal life." I would say it did not reach many people in His time or in ours.