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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

All that makes my head hurt. A United Methodist once told me that, in heaven, we will be tiny points of light in Jesus' crown. I don't want to be a point of light. I want to be there in my own skin, my own flesh, my own bones. In this life, I am becoming all that I will be there. (The purging is here and now.) Here I am called to be a reflection of divinity, of Perfect Love ("blessed to be a blessing"). There I will be one with divinity, not incorporated but of the same Mind and knowing only Good--your word "divinized" (which brings up the question of free will in heaven).

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I can definitely relate to the hurting head. And, like you, I don't especially fancy being a point of light on a crown. In fact, part of what I am trying to do is to get behind the metaphors. The metaphors bug me most of all. People receiving crowns and all that. But union with the divine, that is something I cannot comprehend (though I'm going to keep trying) but which sounds good to me. I'm also not convinced that "glorified body" means something like "the body you've had all along only better". That's not the way I think of "glorified".

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
what am I missing here?????
I happen to agree with both you and Akoue.
Please explain yourself better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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That was the point of my last post. I agree with Akoue at least ultimately, in the end, we will find ourselves transformed into a new heaven and a new earth as part of all creation. I just said it in a way so as not to hurt any of my sensibilities. (that is if I had any senses to hurt)

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Akoue

In fact, part of what I am trying to do is to get behind the metaphors. People receiving crowns and all that.

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And do I have to carry a harp and sing in the choir? I always hated practicing the piano (Chopin arrrgh), so I can't imagine practicing the harp. And I was always made alto. If anything, I want to sing the melody, not the notes below it. The wings might be fun, but I hate to wear long billowy robes that trip me up and make me look fat (white especially! Another arrrgh). I want to curry the horses and snuggle with the kitties and bake cupcakes. I'll even scoop litter and fork down the hay from the loft. (Am I whiny or what? )

Joe and Akoue.
Thanks, Joe, for the explanation.
Akoue, when I speak of a glorifies body I have in mind the body Jesus had after He rose from the dead. He could walk through walls and locked doors.
He could appear seemingly instantly many mile away and he could appear differently on occasion; his apostles could not recognize Him till he was ready for them to do so.
Even so he could be felt by others and could eat food.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue, when I speak of a glorifies body I have in mind the body Jesus had after He rose from the dead. He could walk through walls and locked doors.
He could appear seemingly instantly many mile away and he could appear differently on occasion; his apostles could not recognize Him till he was ready for them to do so.
Even so he could be felt by others and could eat food.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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My comment wasn't aimed at you, Fred. I'm sorry if it seemed that it was. I was actually thinking of some other people who say things like that. They also often seem to have very detailed predictions about how salvation history will end--including which countries will wage war on which others, who their leaders will be, etc.--and who will join God in heaven and who will be banished to what they appear to regard as a flaming body of water. That sort of thing.

What you say about the glorified body is interesting to me. I've been thinking about this too, as the thread has progressed: How to understand the meaning of "glorified". Given what I've said in other posts, you may not be at all surprised to hear me say that I am increasingly thinking of it in terms of the union with the Trinity that awaits us. In fact, I'm even wondering if "glorified" might mean something like "transcended". The thing is, I suspect it would be a mistake to think of it as our transcending materiality altogether. Jakester cautioned against something similar to this early in the thread, and I believe he was right to do so. The idea of the union of humanity with divinity is a difficult but also a thrilling thing to ponder (I find). Adding materiality to it makes it all the more engrossing, and difficult. How can our materiality be united to God's divinity? We know it can be, because the Incarnation shows us an example of it. I keep coming back to what has been said above, that the purification we are to undergo is itself transformative, so that perhaps the material bodies we will have will not be material in quite the way we think of materiality now. But this is a question I don't want to dwell on because (a) it will lead away from the other really interesting things we've been talking about and (b) I really haven't the first clue how to wrap my head around it. I just keep coming back to the Incarnation as a symbol and as a sacrament. I think as Christians we are meant to ponder that, to come to see it as an indication of the union that we all hope for in the end.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

The idea of the union of humanity with divinity is a difficult but also a thrilling thing to ponder (I find). Adding materiality to it makes it all the more engrossing, and difficult. How can our materiality be united to God's divinity? We know it can be, because the Incarnation shows us an example of it.

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One last gasp on that topic: Now you're getting closer to what I think. Even Job (19:26) said, "And after my skin hath been thus destroyed, yet from my flesh shall I see God." And oh yes, the resurrection of the body. Body? Ok, I'm off to bed.

Akoue,
I don't find it difficult to think that we can have bodies as Jesus did after He rose from the dead.
It is not something I groan over. Jesus is united with the trinity with a body that has transcended from mere human to one that is also divine.
We are thus set free from the slavery of a mere human body to one that is FREE from corruption with a glorified body such as Jesus had.
A body that is ready for the glory of heaven.
And now I am also ready for bed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
I don't find it difficult to think that we can have bodies as Jesus did after He rose from the dead.
It is not something I groan over. Jesus is united with the trinity with a body that has transcended from mere human to one that is also divine.
We are thus set free from the slavery of a mere human body to one that is FREE from corruption with a glorified body such as Jesus had.
A body that is ready for the glory of heaven.
And now I am also ready for bed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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That makes sense. Thanks.

Sleep tight and, if you have bed-bugs, sleep on the couch.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

One last gasp on that topic: Now you're getting closer to what I think. Even Job (19:26) said, "And after my skin hath been thus destroyed, yet from my flesh shall I see God." And oh yes, the resurrection of the body. Body? Ok, I'm off to bed.

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Ah, Wondergirl, you are like the Delphic Oracle of AMHD! Short and suggestive and sometimes provocative posts that often leave me not quite sure what you are saying. That's not an entirely bad thing, mind you, but I am going to bug you yet again: Would you please explain? I think I have an idea what you're saying but I'm not sure and am now in the grip of terrible suspense. (Was that perhaps your plan all along? To toy with me?)

I'm especially interested to know how I'm getting closer to what you think. What do you think? What do you think that I am getting closer to? You can't just dangle that out in front of me like a carrot and not say more, not explain... Wait, I've got it: You're a tease! You're a theological tease!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I believe Jesus' sacrifice was complete. We don't have to do anything to save ourselves or do anything to complete the process -- or have any punishment assigned to remove sin. I'm with my birthday buddy Martin -- here on earth we are simul iustus et peccator. On Judgment Day, we are only iustus (iusti?).

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What accounts for the transformation from simul iustus et peccator to iustus? I don't want this to turn into yet another faith alone vs. faith+works thread. I am just interested in the transformation side of the story. In other words, lets just agree to disagree for the moment about whether works are required in addition to faith; we can put a pin in it (it's sure to come up on plenty of other threads in the near future). We can all agree (certainly Luther did) that we will not be in heaven as we are now; something changes. Now, my focus has been on the change from the sort of union we have with God here and now (as his adopted children) to the sort of union we will have with God at the end of salvation history (when we are one with the Godhead). A union that will embrace not just human beings but all of creation.

Christ's sacrifice is complete, we also agree about that. But the three days from the Crucifixion to the Resurrection isn't the whole of salvation history. As Goethe said, "Die Liebe Gottes regt sich nun" (the love of God is stirring in us now). God remains, as he was when Jesus walked in the Galilee, the agent of salvation history. I have tried to widen our gaze from Golgatha and the Tomb to the Incarnation itself with the idea that this is meant to tell us something about the union with God that we have to look forward to. And while we obviously cannot know in any detail what that union will be like, there is this nagging question regarding humanity as it stands face to face with the divine. It was not a pleasant experience for Moses on Sinai, and he was only permitted exposure to God's backside for a moment. What we are talking about now is the eternal *participation* in divinity. Joe's suggestion is that humanity cannot, in its present state, withstand the immensity of the divine presence. This makes a lot of sense to me. And yet we know it is possible because the Incarnation shows us that it is. In fact, I'm convinced that one of the things that the Incarnation is supposed to do is show as that it is possible.

Now Brother Martin envisages a transformation as well, from simul iustus et peccator to iustus. Like the transformation Joe talked about, this isn't a transformation that we can bring about on our own; it is God who works this transformation in us. Luther himself talks about it as purificatory, he just doesn't see the purification taking place in Purgatory. But he certainly seems to have thought that human nature requires additional ministrations on the part of the divine in order to prepare it for an eternal union with God. He held that we cannot do anything by means of which to merit our own salvation, we cannot be justified by anything other than faith in the crucified and risen Christ, but he very clearly did not think that the history of salvation closed at the empty tomb. That no further sacrifice is required does not mean that nothing further is required. (In fact, though I can't recall where, I do remember Luther saying something very close to this--I mean with very nearly the same words I just used.)

So I guess this is just a long-winded version of an earlier request: How do you think of this yourself? Happily none of us is interested in apocalypticism and so there is no question about the end times, but rather about the end of salvation history that comes with the union of human and divine, created and uncreated. How say you, WG?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We still gotta go through purging fires after we die? Isn't that the chaff? I was hoping to be wheat going into the barn!

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I’m at a loss to see the logic of your query!

I’m sure that you expect our earthly justice to punish crime.. but you seem to consider instead unfair that the Divine justice (which must be perfect by definition) should not act in response before any crimes committed against GOD.

Whether this punishment is a purging fire, as you say, or the simple denial and permanent separation from God after the Last Judgement, will be eventually found out by those of us who do not deserve our Salvation.

However, if I were you, I would quickly give up any hopes of “being the wheat that goes into the barn”.

Whether you are “wheat” or “chaff” depends entirely upon you. As you already know, the chaff is the dead part of the plant (your sins) whereas the wheat is the live part of it (your good deeds).

And, naturally enough, the dead parts are thrown away.

Now then, who determines this? We do for the wheat but God does it as far as we are concerned.

Keep that in mind!

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Now then, who determines this? We do for the wheat but God does it as far as we are concerned.

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Jesus, by His sacrifice on the cross, made me wheat.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Whether you are “wheat” or “chaff” depends entirely upon you. As you already know, the chaff is the dead part of the plant (your sins) whereas the wheat is the live part of it (your good deeds).

And, naturally enough, the dead parts are thrown away.

Now then, who determines this? We do for the wheat but God does it as far as we are concerned.

Keep that in mind!

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hello, gromitt -

If you read Matthew 13, Jesus explains what wheat is and what chaff is. Wheat is not good deeds and chaff is not bad deeds. Wheat are the sons of the Kingdom of God and chaff are the sons of the evil one. I think it is very misleading to interpret wheat as good deeds and chaff as evil deeds because to do so is to miss entirely Christ's use of the parable.

See the passage for yourself:

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Sincerely.

FYI there's a book called Driven By Eternity by John Bevere that explains this situation quite well.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

FYI there's a book called Driven By Eternity by John Bevere that explains this situation quite well.

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How does it explain "this situation"? According to a review, "This book really has a legalistic bent and a 'works mentality' to it that could lead people down a wrong path spiritually."

Is that true? Is that what we should know about the book?

I don't know where your review came from, but the book talks about wheat and chaff and burning through the fire. I've read it and watched the seminar.

Your tone implies offence. How could that have happened with a suggestion of a book?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Your tone implies offence. How could that have happened with a suggestion of a book?

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Offense? Not at all. I have read many of your posts and figured the book is by a fundamentalist/evangelical author so I went searching for reviews.

Oh. Yep that about sums up my view point. ;)

Gone the way of the dodo, back to picking at each other as normal.

Thread closed before it gets worst