No. Jesus established one Church. Men caused the Protestant Reformation, divided the Church and established denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've answered in more detail in the other response.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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No. Jesus established one Church. Men caused the Protestant Reformation, divided the Church and established denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've answered in more detail in the other response.
Sincerely,
De Maria
If Jesus did not establish a denomination, then the reformation did not divide the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Scripture says that Jesus established the body of believers, which cannot be divided. That being the case, most of your arguments evaporate since they are based upon your assumption of your denomination being the church which Christ establish.
No use arguing against protestant churches or reformed churches. I am not a member of either.
This is what Scripture says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How do you define "denomination" and where do you see it in Scripture?
Sincerely,
De Maria
First, denominations do not exist in scripture, therefore no denominations, including yours were in existence in the first century or established by Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Like most errors, taking a verse out of context can be seen by reading the context. Read the passage of scripture just before that verse to see what Jesus said that He would build his church upon. But this topic is a distraction because we agreed that Jesus did not establish a denomination, so let's consider what it was that He did establish.
As I indicated previously, my Bible indicates that He established the body of believers - do you agree?
The Body of Christ is His Church, His Bride. We are made up of many parts. Not just one specific church. Each has its purpose and function just like a real body has different parts. No one part is supreme to the whole. The body can't function without the liver or walk without the legs.Quote:
The reason, because I believe Jesus established one Church:
Matthew 16
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
We need each other and need to stop inter-denominational bickering. We need to be unified so that we can conquer Hell as Jesus said we can.
All who are members of he body of Christ are united through the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
We conquer hell? Reference please.
savedsinner7,
You are right as far as that goes.
I noticed that the bible tells us who Jesus was talking to when He spoke of that.
They were his apostles, disciples, and followers all.
The same when He spoke of unity.
They are the members of His Church (assembly: as translated from Aramaic).
They later met in homes, caves and other places to worship. Early on they begin building place to meet and worship which became known as Churches.
But the true Christian (as they called themselves) members of the Church are the Church and I do believe it is right and proper to call the buildings they have build out of Love for God that they also are called Churches.
It is very sad that there are now over 30,000 so-called denominations and God knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Note that the very first members thereof were basically united in unity.
Very soon after that some converts started breaking way, teaching their own ideas rather than what Jesus immediate followers were teaching as He Instructed and the fragmentation began and it continues like a run away train yet today.
It is fortunate that some of the larger denominations are working for unity.
I hope Jesus' prayer for unity will some day soon be fulfilled.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
So, do you believe that everyone who attends such meetings are saved and are members of the body of Christ?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Scripture speaks of unity in the body of Christ which come from God (Jesus prayed to the Father for this unity, He did not command us to create the unity).
Jesus prayer was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell believers. Jesus never prayed for unity in denominations, or indeed does scripture command unity within church organizations (i.e between believers and unbelievers). Quite the contrary.Quote:
It is fortunate that some of the larger denominations are working for unity.
I hope Jesus' prayer for unity will some day soon be fulfilled.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
1 Cor 11:17-20
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
NKJV
Through the work that Jesus did on the cross. We are joint heirs with Him, He conquered hell and death, He lives in us and we are conquerors with Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 12:21
Don’t let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing good.
Jeremiah 20:11
But the Lord stands beside me like a great warrior.Before him my persecutors will stumble.They cannot defeat me.They will fail and be thoroughly humiliated.Their dishonor will never be forgotten.
1 John 5:4
For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.
Revelation 12:11
And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamband by their testimony.And they did not love their lives so muchthat they were afraid to die.
Revelation 17:14
Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him.”
Our bodies are made of many parts. The body of Christ is made of many parts. ALL are necessary to function to the fullest.Quote:
It is very sad that there are now over 30,000 so-called denominations and God knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Denominations are not part of the body of Christ. Individual believers are.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
1 Cor 12:27
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
Denominations are organizations of men made up of believers and non-believers.
This is different than conquering hell. Hell is a place of torment of those who have rejected the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. This refers to the fact that in Christ and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we gain a victory over sin in our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
Also, you said that we need to be unified to make this happen. Where is this found in scripture?
savedsinner7,
You are right. Jesus established one Church, the one He called "My Church" and that the bible refers to a The Church.
No matter what the bible says there are those who refuse to believe what Jesus and the bible says about that.
They keep talking about denominations when in fact there were none when Jesus established His Church.
Denominations came along after the detractors started fragmenting what Jesus founded.
That is authentic, historical fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The first denomination that has been identified was in 325 AD formed by Constantine (confirmed by Cardinal John Henry Newman and others), and the next notable denomination started in 1054 at what is commonly referred to as the "Great Schism".
The church that Jesus founded (the body of Christ) has not and cannot be divided since it is composed solely of those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, regardless of what local church or denomination they may attend.
Tj3,
You might as well get it right by telling the whole true story.
During the years after Jesus founded His Church with Peter as it's first leader several other groups were formed that called themselves a church; some as far away as Egypt. That was LONG before The Church that Jesus founded decided to change the name to Catholic Church to signify that IT is the Universal Church.
That's history, Tom, and nothing you say can change that fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You said previously that Jesus did NOT found a denomination. Now you say that He did. There is nothing to substantiate the claim that Peter was the head of any denomination, Roman Catholic or otherwise, or indeed that any denomination existed in the first century.
Let's see what Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman says:
"We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church."
That's history, Fred, and nothing you say can change that fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Point of Fact does not show traditions but instead : you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
I am showing Peter as he loved Christ. Peter did as Christ asked him to do. I do not make Peter the foundation of a church. The foundation is Christ, perfect in every way. Christ is the Rock in which Peter will stand upon to give feed to the sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
No scripture has not lost it's Truth.. Would you darn say the Holy Spirit has lost force? The Holy Spirit brings forth Truth in scripture. Traditions are brought forth by man that can defile men.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
And scripture goes on to say Mark 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Why? Your answer is Mark 7:21
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8 :18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
These scripture firmly tell us who to follow, and it is not man and not his traditions.
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jesus says the scripture testify of Him. I fully believe in the power of God. It is He that brings forth Truth.
The church will stand firm teaching scriptures which testify of Christ to the sheep. Feed them the Truth and not traditions of men that defile. Love God above all, Have no other Gods, Keep the Sabbath Holy.. The Sabbath is Chirst, Christ is our rest..
sndbay,
Christ and the Holy Spirit guide The Church yet today.
So it stands firm as the bride of Christ Jesus and has for 200 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Hmmm... Jesus has been the head of my church and the Holy Spirit has guided my church for 2000 years. Sorry to hear about yours!
:D
Tom
Fred, Who stands firm as the bride of Christ are those who believe. Those who remain stedfast in the Word of God, and stay within the light. And nothing is given to man that didn't come from heaven. (John 3:27)John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Hear the Word Fred, (John 3:33-34 )He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
John 3:35-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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