According to your beliefs and prejudices.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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According to your beliefs and prejudices.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Athos-
Talking nonsense is an insult to you? You have thin skin. You proposed a logical fallacy, a straw man of God's power, that is nonsense. I am beginning to think your goal in life is to say as much as possible...too bad, it doesn't say much.
Get your bible out and read it if you are so confounded. Satan = Cherubim = Four Faced Beast. I'm sorry you can't see that, it is written plain as day in Ezekiel, I guess your reading comprehension is lacking though.
I could care less what you believe, your brain is made of mud apparently, what the bible says and what you say are in stark contradiction.
Lets make a game of this, since you refuse to let any topic advance beyond some inability to understand the most basic of thoughts, how about you just go on insulting everyone, and I'll go on insulting you.
I'll start.
You are as dull as a 5 watt incandescent.
Oh, such terrific testimony and witnessing! My heart nearly bursts with joy at seeing examples of believers expressing and sharing Jesus' love here on these boards! </sarcasm>Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
That's what I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You are looking for those areas that show (in your words) "certain prejudices". Did you ever think I thought your motivation was anything but that?
Like other fundie/born-again/evanglicals, the routine is the same. Correct their beliefs that do not agree with us, frighten them with hell, and accept or discard them according to what they believe.
This website page is here for the purpose of DISCUSSING Christianity, not converting non-Christians. You and the likes of you have never understood that simple fact. Some years ago, one misguided moderator posted that the page was FOR believing Christians, not for non-Christians. His error was soon corrected, presumably by the owner.
Post all you want about your beliefs, and your Bible readings, but don't expect not to be challenged by other Christians or by non-Christians.
This beauty is from the one who chastises others for nasty language and insulting remarks. It is hard to believe he has left himself so open for others to see his all-too-obvious hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
For a wonderful example of infojunkie's evangelical mind-set, all should read his post #191. It's breathtaking.
Ok...that's fair. I got carried away. Please accept my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am sorry. That was uncalled for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
What difference does that make? I freely admit I am prejudiced towards believing the Bible. I think it's for very good reasons, but I certainly don't let that make me shrink away from answering straight forward questions. Why do you?Quote:
You are looking for those areas that show (in your words) "certain prejudices". Did you ever think I thought your motivation was anything but that?
Yet another of the ad hominem attacks you claim to dislike. If you can't answer the arguments, then attack the persons. Even worse, it is flatly an untrue statement since I just told you recently I am not a "fundie" or anything that fits your definition of an evangelical. You remember? That was yet another occasion where you asked me questions and I answered them. Remember??? https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...42#post3871642Quote:
Like other fundie/born-again/evanglicals, the routine is the same.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...87#post3871687
You are also disparaging the concept of being born again which Jesus said is absolutely essential for entering the Kingdom of God. Is that yet another statement of Christ's you refuse to accept?
Where does it say that? Do you think you get to decide? But it does, rather sadly, seem to be a clear statement by you that you are a "non Christian". That's tragic.Quote:
This website page is here for the purpose of DISCUSSING Christianity, not converting non-Christians.
I reply to any and all legitimate questions. As you just admitted, your questions are designed to display your prejudices and that is not a very good reason. You just don't get it - never have.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I reject ad hominem attacks unless they originate with you. Then you get a taste of your own medicine. Like others of your religious ilk, you can't seem to discuss Christianity without soon attacking the person.Quote:
Yet another of the ad hominem attacks you claim to dislike.
A fundamentalist/evangelical/born again is anyone who reads the Bible literally. Believing in talking reptiles clearly puts you in that category. Do you deny that?Quote:
it is flatly an untrue statement since I just told you recently I am not a "fundie"
No, I am disparaging your concept of being born again.Quote:
You are also disparaging the concept of being born again which Jesus said is absolutely essential for entering the Kingdom of God.
No, it's yet another example of your limited grasp of discussions here.Quote:
Is that yet another statement of Christ's you refuse to accept?
Quote:
from Athos
This website page is here for the purpose of DISCUSSING Christianity, not converting non-Christians.
It is self-evident that Q&A sites are NOT for proselytizing. Now that you admitted you don't go along with that, it tells us all we need to know about you and what you post on these pages.Quote:
Where does it say that? Do you think you get to decide?
This bizarre non-sequitur tells us more about your mind-set as so many of your statements do. I will say this much for you - your mental meanderings are always there in plain sight for anyone to take the measure of your mind.Quote:
But it does, rather sadly, seem to be a clear statement by you that you are a "non Christian".
Another beauty from you! The world of non-Christians is hardly tragic. What is truly tragic is your sick belief that Jesus sends all who don't believe in him to hell for punishment for all eternity. Nothing is more tragic.Quote:
That's tragic.
Your belief in talking reptiles is close behind. Not tragic so much as idiotic.
You have a lot to offer. Let's work together!Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
What does being "born again" mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Infojunkie4life has sent me a message that he is sorry for his behavior and recognizes he should do better. He is leaving AMHD after a decade here and hopes that we find the truth someday.
I replied as below:Quote:
Apology accepted. It's always good to recognize hard truths about oneself, no matter how long it takes.
I hope you too will find the truth someday.
My message was returned as undeliverable since Info had previously elected not to receive internal messages. So I'm posting it here in the hope that he will see it.
Always one to excuse your own behavior.Quote:
I reject ad hominem attacks unless they originate with you. Then you get a taste of your own medicine. Like others of your religious ilk, you can't seem to discuss Christianity without soon attacking the person.
If there is a more legit question than whether or not you believe in the resurrection, I don't know what it is.
Everybody reads the Bible literally. When you quote passages, you take their meanings to be literal. Your definitions of fundamentalists/evangelicals are just that. Your definitions.
Yet another ad hominem attack with no meaningful response to the question raised. Predictable.Quote:
No, it's yet another example of your limited grasp of discussions here.
It is to you. Believe it or not, not everyone is compelled to abide by your personal beliefs.Quote:
It is self-evident that Q&A sites are NOT for proselytizing
Aside from your lack of understanding as to what a non-sequitur is, you can easily solve the problem by a simple statement of your belief. Oops. I forgot. That would require you to actually answer a meaningful question, something which you seem loathe to do.Quote:
This bizarre non-sequitur tells us more about your mind-set as so many of your statements do. I will say this much for you - your mental meanderings are always there in plain sight for anyone to take the measure of your mind.
Shame to see Info go. He had some good statements.
Huh? The first lesson we are taught is that, in addition to historical events, the Bible contains poetry, parables, allegories, wise sayings, uplifting songs, prophecies. Lessons two and three are how to tell the difference and what the purpose of each is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I am certainly not referring to any lessons you have taught. I have no reason to follow that. But even in your world, are you saying that you never take the Bible literally? You have quoted passages here that you took quite literally, have you not?
Nor am I referring to "any lessons I have taught".Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Those are lessons every new Bible student is taught. Please reread what I had posted.
I don't take the figurative portions of psalms literally. Are there parts of the Bible you do not take literally?
No thanks.Quote:
Please reread what I had posted.
Answer a question with a question? Did you and Athos go to the same school of evasion?Quote:
Are there parts of the Bible you do not take literally?
At any rate, to show you how it's done, I'll give two passages I take figuratively and tell you why. The first is at the beginning of John 10 where Jesus refers so a door, a shepherd, sheep, and thieves and robbers. Then we read in verse 6, "This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them." He then goes on to explain the allegory.
There is also the passage preceeding John 16:29. After Jesus has spoken in very literal terms, His disciples say, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech."
We could look at many others. The parable of the sower of the seed in Mark 4, for instance, which Jesus then explains in very literal terms afterward. But they all bear the same marks. They are statements which are impossible to take in literal terms. Jesus is not a door, we are not sheep, and God is not growing plants in a field. However, we never are to follow the rule that the two of you seem to employ. When you encounter a passage which disagrees with your preconceived ideas, you simply dismiss as some sort of figurative language. You can never explain what the figurative language is to teach us, but you pass by it because you find it to be uncomfortable.
Now try answering my question.
You misunderstood what I had written, thus my request.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I wasn't finished with my reply, and had added more to explain.Quote:
Answer a question with a question? Did you and Athos go to the same school of evasion?
What's your question? Where's your explanation of why you don't take it literally?Quote:
At any rate, to show you how it's done, I'll give two passages I take figuratively and tell you why. The first is at the beginning of John 10 where Jesus refers so a door, a shepherd, sheep, and thieves and robbers. Then we read in verse 6, "This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them."
I accidentally posted my reply before I was finished. Please reread it.
I have no intention of hunting around for your statements. If you have something to clarify, then simply copy and paste your responses.
Wait! You refuse to go "hunting around" to read my additions, but I must scroll back in order to read yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I'll make it easy. It was precisely three posts above yours, but in the interest of being helpful, here you go.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...49#post3871849
And here is my very recent post that you spurned:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jlisenbe https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images...post-right.png
I am certainly not referring to any lessons you have taught. I have no reason to follow that. But even in your world, are you saying that you never take the Bible literally? You have quoted passages here that you took quite literally, have you not?
Wondergirl:
Nor am I referring to "any lessons I have taught".
Those are lessons every new Bible student is taught. Please reread what I had posted.
I don't take the figurative portions of psalms literally. Are there parts of the Bible you do not take literally?
I have no idea what your question is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Fair enough. I misread your statement.
I have just posted three passages to taken figuratively.. I also posted what is the general rule of good hermeneutics regarding literal/figurative understandings of passages.
I still wish you would answer my question. I don't expect you will, but I wish you would.
Jesus Himself said those are figurative -- stories that tell a bigger truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, I have no idea what that question is.Quote:
I still wish you would answer my question. I don't expect you will, but I wish you would.
Yes. We would agree with that.Quote:
Jesus Himself said those are figurative -- stories that tell a bigger truth.
What are some passages you take literally?
Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?
Are you trying to push me into a corner of your own making?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
His teachings were part of His ministry. What was the point of His ministry, no matter if His teachings were literal or, so often, figurative?
Answer a question with a question. Wonderful.
I am trying to get you to think. The only way to do that is for each of us to be willing to think aloud. You seem to be unwilling.
Please stop putting me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Apparently, you didn't understand my rhetorical question. I'll rephrase:
[Jesus'] teachings were part of His ministry. Otherwise, what then would have been the point and value of His ministry had He not used these teachings that were literal or, so often, figurative?
If you want a discussion, don't dodge questions. I asked first, so you answer first.
Rhetorical questions, by definition, do not require answers. I thought you knew these things.
Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?
Again, more putdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, no answers. Stop being so sensitive and start being honest and open. Answer questions.
[Jesus'] teachings, both literal and figurative, were part of His ministry and very much the point and value of His ministry. In both word and deed, He enriched the lives of others with unconditional love.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You answered a question asked by no one.
I’ll ask another one. Where does it say God’s love is unconditional?
You asked:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"Why take those literally? How about His teachings? Weren't they part of His ministry? Should they be taken literally? If not, then why not?"
So I answered:
"[Jesus'] teachings, both literal and figurative, were part of His ministry and very much the point and value of His ministry. In both word and deed, He enriched the lives of others with unconditional love."
God’s expression of His unconditional love is found throughout the Bible. Although we are commanded to repent of our sins and love Him and each other, He never stops loving us in our journey to righteousness.Quote:
I’ll ask another one. Where does it say God’s love is unconditional?
One of my favorite verses, Eph. 2:8:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...." -- a gift of grace that shows His unconditional love for us.
If it’s stated throughout the Bible, can you show even one place where that is said?
Your passage didn’t even mention love.
You don't get "unconditional love" (agape) out of God's sacrificing His only Son and giving eternal life as a free gift to sin-ridden humans?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I have asked a simple question. Can you show me in the Bible a passage where it speaks of God's "unconditional love"? You have stated it is throughout the Bible. Fine. Show us where.
Agape is not defined as unconditional love.
I am trying to get you to think this concept through. I know in the past we have talked about unconditional love and unconditional acceptance NOT being synonymous.
You want that exact phrase "unconditional love" to be in the Bible. Correct? If it's not those exact words in the Bible, *sigh*, God must not love us unconditionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
From Wikipedia:Quote:
Agape is not defined as unconditional love.
Agape (Ancient Greek ἀγάπη, agapē) is a Greco-Christian term referring to unconditional love, "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God". The word is not to be confused with philia, brotherly love, or philautia, self-love, as it embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.
I agree that you don't know. The question is legitimate only if the person asking is doing so for a legitimate reason. I already explained that. You have made it clear your purpose is not legitimate. I'm always amazed at how you have such difficulty understanding the posts of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Wrong! Most read the Bible to discern the meaning behind the words when a literal reading is obviously not called for.Quote:
Everybody reads the Bible literally.
Like a talking reptile?Quote:
When you quote passages, you take their meanings to be literal.
Third time WRONG! My definition is the accepted definition. That is easily verified by checking any dictionary or any Bible site.Quote:
Your definitions of fundamentalists/evangelicals are just that. Your definitions.
Unlike you, he was man enough to recognize that some of his posts did not describe the real person he was. I admire him for that.Quote:
Shame to see Info go. He had some good statements.
That is the last mention I will make re Info to you. I have no desire to tarnish his reputation by discussing him with you.
You said, and I quote, "God’s expression of His unconditional love is found throughout the Bible." Now you say it's not? Are you confused?Quote:
You want that exact phrase "unconditional love" to be in the Bible. Correct? If it's not those exact words in the Bible, *sigh*.
As to your definition of agape, it is not defined as unconditional love in any lexicon you will ever find. Strong's Concordance says, "26 agápē – properly, love which centers in moral preference. So too in secular ancient Greek, 26 (agápē) focuses on preference; likewise the verb form (25 /agapáō) in antiquity meant "to prefer" (TDNT, 7). In the NT, 26 (agápē) typically refers to divine love (= what God prefers)." The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon says, "
Definition
- brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
- love feasts"
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this.
1. affection, good-will, love, benevolence: John 15:13; Romans 13:10; 1 John 4:18. Of the love of men to men; especially of that love of Christians toward Christians which is enjoined and prompted by their religion, whether the love be viewed as in the soul or as expressed: Matthew 24:12; 1 Corinthians 13:1-4, 8; 1 Corinthians 14:1; 2 Corinthians 2:4; Galatians 5:6; Philemon 1:5, 7; 1 Timothy 1:5; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 10:24; John 13:35; 1 John 4:7; Revelation 2:4, 19, etc. Of the love of men toward God: ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ; (obj. genitive (Winer's Grammar, 185 (175))), Luke 11:42; John 5:42; 1 John 2:15 (τοῦ πατρός); . Of the love of God toward men: Romans 5:8; Romans 8:39; 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14). Of the love of God toward Christ: John 15:10; John 17:26. Of the love of Christ toward men: John 15:9; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 8:35; Ephesians 3:19. In construction: ἀγάπην εἰς τινα, 2 Corinthians 2:8 (?); Ephesians 1:15 (L WH omit; Tr marginal reading brackets τήν ἀγάπην); τῇ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐν ἡμῖν i. e. love going forth from your soul and taking up its abode as it were in ours, equivalent to your love to us, 2 Corinthians 8:7 (Winers Grammar, 193 (181f); B. 329 (283)); μεθ' ὑμῶν i. e. is present with (embraces) you, 1 Corinthians 16:24; μεθ' ἡμῶν i. e. seen among us, 1 John 4:17. Phrases: ἔχειν ἀγάπην εἰς τινα, 2 Corinthians 2:4; Colossians 1:4 (L T Tr, but WH brackets); 1 Peter 4:8; ἀγάπην διδόναι to give a proof of love, 1 John 3:1; ἀγαπᾶν ἀγάπην τινα, John 17:26; Ephesians 2:4 (see in ἀγαπάω, under the end); ἀγάπης τοῦ πνεύματος, i. e. enkindled by the Holy Spirit, Romans 15:30; ὁ υἱός τῆς ἀγάπης the Son who is the object of love, equivalent to ἀγαπητός, Colossians 1:13 (Winers Grammar, 237 (222); (Buttmann, 162 (141))); ὁ Θεός τῆς ἀγάπης the author of love, 2 Corinthians 13:11; κόπος τῆς ἀγάπης troublesome service, toil, undertaken from love, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; ἀγάπην τῆς ἀληθείας love which embraces the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:10; ὁ Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστιν God is wholly love, his nature is summed up in love, 1 John 4:8, 16; φίλημα ἀγάπης a kiss as a sign among Christians of mutual affection, 1 Peter 5:14; διά τήν ἀγάπην that love may have opportunity of influencing thee ('in order to give scope to the power of love,' DeWette, Wies.), Philemon 1:9, cf. Philemon 1:14; ἐν ἀγάπη lovingly, in an affectionate spirit, 1 Corinthians 4:21; on love as a basis (others, in love as the sphere or element), Ephesians 4:15 (where ἐν ἀγάπη is to be connected not with ἀληθεύοντες but with αὐξήσωμεν), Ephesians 4:16; ἐξ ἀγάπης influenced by love, Philippians 1:17 (16); κατά ἀγάπην in a manner befitting love, Romans 14:15. Love is mentioned together with faith and hope in 1 Corinthians 13:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Colossians 1:4; Hebrews 10:22-24. On the words ἀγάπη, ἀγαπᾶν, cf. Gelpke in the Studien und Kritiken for 1849, p. 646f; on the idea and nature of Christian love see Köstlin, Lehrbgr. des Ev. Joh. etc., p. 248ff, 332ff; Rückert, Theologie, ii. 452ff; Lipsius, Paulin. Reehtfertigungsl., p. 188ff; (Reuss, Theol. Chret. livr. vii. chap. 13).
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