Ask Me Help Desk - Could Jesus have sinned?

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Originally Posted by Athos

Piffle yourself.

Yeah, that's all I need - for you to start bolding verses. If you do, I'll start quoting the Bhagavad-Gita.

I see you had your raw meat this morning. And you used to be so nice going around baking cupcakes for everybody.

Wanna dance?

Don't rub her nose in it.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2512472

The link took me somewhere else. I've found that such links don't really help as a way to recall older posts. Even referencing the number of the post doesn't always work; the numbering in my computer may not be the same as in yours.

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You ask, "What is there to obey?" Is that a serious inquiry?

Sorry. It was a rhetorical question.

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In other words, "refusing to believe". Whom do you think this is in reference to?

In this case, it refers to James' audience.

The question of Jesus being separated into divine and human is important to the original question. That being along the lines of the possibility of someone who is fully divine and fully human being capable of sin.

My apologies to Athos. I think it is Wondergirl who has adopted the correct position in relation to this question. In future I will try and not be so sloppy with my responses.

Can we talk in an intelligible way about divinity and humanity being one and the same. We can say they are but what types of arguments can we put forward for such a synthesis? I think we are pretty much limited to the conclusion that we can't talk about it in an intelligible way. All we can say is that it is a 'divine mystery'

What we can talk about is God using various logical and ontological arguments. At the same time we can also talk about Jesus as a man using empirical arguments. On this basis I think that it makes sense to talk about the real possibility that Jesus could have sinned. The fact that he didn't doesn't detract from the empirical possibility.

Tut

Why would God have taken on a human nature if He wouldn't have been able to sin? What would have been the point?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The link took me somewhere else. I've found that such links don't really help as a way to recall older posts. Even referencing the number of the post doesn't always work; the numbering in my computer may not be the same as in yours.

Sorry. It was a rhetorical question.

In this case, it refers to James' audience.

But weren't we talking about something St. Peter said? How did St. James audience get into this?

Previously, on this thread:

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What happens if we DO NOT obey the Gospel?
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Why would God have taken on a human nature if He wouldn't have been able to sin?

He came to give us an example to follow:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

In order that we might be saved. He didn't come to give us an example of sin.

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What would have been the point?

The point is that we must be like Jesus, constantly united to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

He came to give us an example to follow:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

In order that we might be saved. He didn't come to give us an example of sin.

The point is that we must be like Jesus, constantly united to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

I don't follow His example to get saved.

And if He wasn't human like I am, there's no way I could follow His example -- and I wouldn't even try.

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Originally Posted by TUT317

The question of Jesus being separated into divine and human is important to the original question. That being along the lines of the possibility of someone who is fully divine and fully human being capable of sin.

My apologies to Athos. I think it is Wondergirl who has adopted the correct position in relation to this question. In future I will try and not be so sloppy with my responses.

Can we talk in an intelligible way about divinity and humanity being one and the same.

Huh? You lost me there. Better check your logic.

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We can say they are but what types of arguments can we put forward for such a synthesis? I think we are pretty much limited to the conclusion that we can't talk about it in an intelligible way. All we can say is that it is a 'divine mystery'

Oh, OK.

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What we can talk about is God using various logical and ontological arguments. At the same time we can also talk about Jesus as a man using empirical arguments. On this basis I think that it makes sense to talk about the real possibility that Jesus could have sinned. The fact that he didn't doesn't detract from the empirical possibility.

If it is possible that He could have sinned, then you can't call Him God.

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Tut

Sincerely,

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't follow His example to get saved.

And if He wasn't human like I am, there's no way I could follow His example -- and I wouldn't even try.

Love is His example. You don't follow it?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

If it is possible that He could have sinned, then you can't call Him God.

That was the wonderful and amazing mystery of it all -- that Jesus was not only God, but was also human just like us and was able to be tempted and fall just like we do -- but He said no and didn't sin! What an example for us to follow!

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Love is His example. You don't follow it?

It would be a God-love so impossible for me to reach for that I wouldn't even try to emulate it.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That was the wonderful and amazing mystery of it all -- that Jesus was not only God, but was also human just like us

Jesus had two natures and two wills. The Divine and the human will. Which do you think is stronger?

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and was able to be tempted and fall just like we do -- but He said no and didn't sin! What an example for us to follow!

Not committing sin is a great example no matter whether He was capable or not. But He didn't come to show us how not to sin. Jesus came to show us how to love.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Jesus had two natures and two wills. The Divine and the human will. Which do you think is stronger?

They were equal.

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Not committing sin is a great example no matter whether He was capable or not. But He didn't come to show us how not to sin. Jesus came to show us how to love.

He came to show us both.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

They were equal.

They were equal? Think about that for a minute. The Divine Will rules the cosmos. The human will rules the human body.

At least, that's how I understand it.

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He came to show us both.

True. But I think he did the showing us how not to sin by showing us how to love:
Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

They were equal? Think about that for a minute. The Divine Will rules the cosmos. The human will rules the human body. At least, that's how I understand it.

Okay. I thought about it for a minute. Yes, they were equal. Remember, no one like Jesus has ever existed. There was a definite tension between His human and divine natures, just like the tension between Law and Gospel. What wondrous mystery!

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But I think he did the showing us how not to sin by showing us how to love:
Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And Jesus did both very nicely.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Okay. I thought about it for a minute. Yes, they were equal. Remember, no one like Jesus has ever existed. There was a definite tension between His human and divine natures, just like the tension between Law and Gospel. What wondrous mystery!

Ok, I give. But I still believe my Church. Jesus could not have sinned.

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And Jesus did both very nicely.

Yes, He did.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Ok, I give. But I still believe my Church. Jesus could not have sinned.

Think about it while you're falling asleep tonight.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Think about it while you're falling asleep tonight.

I've already thought about it for several nights that we've had these conversations. I can't fathom where God can sin or even be tempted.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I've already thought about it for several nights that we've had these conversations. I can't fathom where God can sin or even be tempted.

Keep on thinking about it. Remember the points I brought up.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Keep on thinking about it. Remember the points I brought up.

I've thought about it and it remains clear that we can't call Jesus God if He can sin. And that is for more than one reason.

You're thinking of Jesus as though His Divinity is separate from His humanity. But His humanity was always subject to His Divinity.

When Jesus was born of Mary, it isn't as though His humanity passed through the birth canal and the Divinity went around. The Divinity is part and parcel of Jesus person. And mothers give birth to persons. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God. And therefore, Jesus could not have sinned. Because Jesus is God.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're thinking of Jesus as though His Divinity is separate from His humanity. But His humanity was always subject to His Divinity.

I don't agree. I've always heard they were co-existent, in equal measure.

And Mary wasn't the mother of God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't agree. I've always heard they were co-existent, in equal measure.

You can't measure Divinity. You are either Divine or not. Jesus wasn't a piece of God. Jesus is God.

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And Mary wasn't the mother of God.

If Jesus is God. Then Mary is the Mother of God. Because Jesus was God from all eternity. And God humbled Himself to be born of a woman.

God passed through Mary's birth canal and was born.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You can't measure Divinity. You are either Divine or not. Jesus wasn't a piece of God. Jesus is God.

When Jesus was born and while He walked this earth, He was both God and man, in equal measure. He was unique, and a mystery.

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If Jesus is God. Then Mary is the Mother of God.

Jesus was both God and man. Mary was Jesus' (not God's) mother. Upon Resurrection, Jesus assumed the fullness of His God-ness.

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God passed through Mary's birth canal and was born.

Good grief!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

When Jesus was born and while He walked this earth, He was both God and man, in equal measure. He was unique, and a mystery.

The mystery is that God would become man. But that doesn't mean that God equals man.

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Jesus was both God and man. Mary was Jesus' (not God's) mother. Upon Resurrection, Jesus assumed the fullness of His God-ness.

Yes, Mary is God's mother. God was carried in her womb, God was born of Mary, God sat on her knees and suckled at her teat. God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity was Mary's little boy.

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Good grief!

What? That's what happens when children are born.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The mystery is that God would become man. But that doesn't mean that God equals man.

The state of Jesus Christ was divine, yet he did not cling to equality with God but emptied himself to assume the condition of a slave, and became as we are: and being as we are, he was humbler yet, even to accepting death, death on a cross.. . (Philippians 2:6-11)

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Yes, Mary is God's mother.

Mary was Jesus' mother.

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What? That's what happens when children are born.

I missed that part and used Lamaze. (P.S. We don't suffer "grief." They're called contractions.)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The state of Jesus Christ was divine, yet he did not cling to equality with God but emptied himself to assume the condition of a slave, and became as we are: and being as we are, he was humbler yet, even to accepting death, death on a cross.. . (Philippians 2:6-11)

That doesn't address the question Wondergirl.

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The mystery is that God would become man. But that doesn't mean that God equals man.

Divinity is greater even then all men combined. Divinity is that God in whom we live, breathe and are. Divinity is not constrained by time or space. Divinity is greater than the entire cosmos and yet smaller than the smallest atom.

This is the Divinity which Christ "shares" with the entire Trinity. There is only one Divinity. One God.

And Jesus is God and God can't sin.

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Mary was Jesus' mother.

And Jesus is God.

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I missed that part and used Lamaze. (P.S. We don't suffer "grief." They're called contractions.)

Yeah, I was the one holding the watch and telling her to breathe.
My wife also used Lamaze and our children (4) all were born through the birth canal.

It is you who said, "good grief"

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That doesn't address the question Wondergirl.

WG doesn't recall the question and is too tired to scroll back however far to find it (if it's even in this thread).

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And Jesus is God and God can't sin.

Jesus was also human and was capable of sinning, else all He did was in vain and is nothing to which we can relate.

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Yeah, I was the one holding the watch and telling her to breathe.

You got off easy.

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our children (4) all were born through the birth canal.

Which means what?

I said "good grief" because of what YOU said. I could have said, "Ach, du lieber!"

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

WG doesn't recall the question and is too tired to scroll back however far to find it (if it's even in this thread).

Jesus was also human and was capable of sinning, else all He did was in vain and is nothing to which we can relate.

You got off easy.

Which means what?

I said "good grief" because of what YOU said. I could have said, "Ach, du lieber!"

Schlaf gut Say good night WG

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Schlaf gut Say good night WG

Don't rub her nose in it.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Don't rub her nose in it.

She don't like it.