this8384,
Good questions.
Thanks for asking them,
Peace and kindness,
Fred
|
this8384,
Good questions.
Thanks for asking them,
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Wondergirl, not this8384, is asking the questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wondergirl
Cookies??
LOL
I thought it was fruit from a fruit tree.
Y think that It was a test to see if man would obey God,
Fred
I don't know. For giggles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Don't forget, though, God's foreknowlegde isn't causally necessitating. His knowing what would happen didn't cause it to happen. Hence this8384's point about free will. I think we are bound to run into a serious roadblock with your question--though it's a question I share, and for which I can't find a satisfying answer: The why-questions can be pushed all the way back. Why create in the first place? I feel the force of the questions, even though I'm not entirely sure the questions are the right ones.
The Bible never says fruit tree. Adam and Eve ate of the tree's "fruit," what has been produced by the tree. I'm thinking it was a chocolate chip cookie tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I didn't say anything about cause, or that God caused it to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
In the same way, the mother's putting the plate of cookies on the table did not cause her children to take any.
Why was a test needed? This was Paradise.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Mmmmmm, now that surely would have been tempting... ;)
Does the mother who puts the plate on the table *know* that the children will take them? No, even though she may have good reason to suspect it. God, however, *knew* what would happen, and God's foreknowledge can't be mistaken. At any rate, I didn't attribute any claim about causation to you; I was just offering an additional point for consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I disagree. This is the age-old problem of man's free will vis-à-vis God's omnipotence and omniscience. Logically, one side or the other has to give. It may be insoluble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Yeah, I was thinking of Augustine's solution, which argues that knowledge isn't a causally necessitating factor. Knowing the p doesn't make it the case that p. This strikes me as quite plausible, even where the knowledge is infallible. It isn't God's knowing that p that made p happen (since God's infallible foreknowledge extends to future *contingents*).Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Quote:
Originally Posted by this8384
1. So what are you saying. Since they were on a roll of sin, they decided to go all the way and have sex with their own family members?
2. okay...
3. I meant okay... for the sake of argument:rolleyes:
4. Nothing wrong with praising God. Go for it, but it is not what god is seeking. Like I said, he doesn't have that egoic need that we do.
5. You are correct. There are people in the world like that.
I believe you get what you put out there. If you cause misery, you will eventually feel that same misery. That is just MY belief that resonates truth and common sense to me. I have no hard fact and neither does anyone else. You can only go on what you believe for whatever reason you believe it.
I have NO PROBLEM admitting when I screw up and apologizing to God for it. And if he loves me anything like I love my kids, he will forgive me and love me even when I falter.
That is between God and me. Nobody needed to die for it. Tell me this. Are you good and believe in God and Jesus, etc. just to stay out of hell or would you be doing exactly what you are doing now even if you had never heard of God, Jesus, or bible?
No, he would be responsible for his own choices. Let me give you an example.
Your little boy has free will as we all do. That's one of the many functions of the brain. To decipher what's the best or easiest or fun-ist, or safest, or most rewarding choice to go with. Now, say you are god.
You have provided a pass or fail situation. You have explained the consequences.
Pass and your reward is a glorious experience beyond description.
Fail and your punishment will be never ending agony, pain, and darkness.
You've told little Johnny not to eat the cookies on the table. Now, he has his free will but his flesh is weak and he gives in to the temptation EVEN though he knew the consequences.
Now, you set up the consequences so you have to follow through.
So, you send your little boy to hell. But hey, HE did it to HIMSELF so there. He was warned.
Would you ever set up consequences like this for your child? Of course not, the stakes are too high. And I don't believe a loving God would do this to his children anymore than you or I would. Something as enormous as eternity hinging on something as shaky as
Free will doesn't make sense.
DoulaLC, Have you read all my replies to this question? Every case cited has been shown to be in error. I simply can't keep refuting every instance found on the internet. If you do your due diligence, truly examine every case you cite, you will find they are filled with flaws. I know because I've done it. If, after examining thoroughly every case you cite, you then truly believe you have a solid case, I will be willing, one final time, to reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoulaLC
What is apparent is that, in their zeal to prove the issue, all proponents skip or omit important facts. This is understandable, but it's not scientific evidence.
It is not knowledge alone. The difficulty comes into play when God is described both as all-knowing AND all-powerful (in the sense that he is the creator). Being the creator and all-knowing, God knows what his creation will do - even before he creates his creation. Can God's creation act against what God has foreknown? If so, God is changeable and therefore not perfect (not God). And, knowing what his creation will do (sin, say, and go to hell) why would God create his creation in the first place? Now the problem of all-loving comes into play. It's a conundrum that no one has ever explained logically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I think the fundamental problem is time. As creatures, we think of time as linear. To God, time must be non-linear. If time is non-linear, cause and effect goes out the window. If cause and effect goes out the window, our logic (and reason) fails. Another way of saying this is that, to God, there is no time. Augustine, as far as I know, may have been the first to posit God outside time. But he doesn't seem to have followed it to its logical conclusion.
The answer found in the Book of Job may be the only answer, which is really, to humans steeped in rationality, a non-answer.
I trust I have thoroughly muddled the question.
cozyk, why the reddie? I didn't say anything factually incorrect (read then rules).Quote:
disagrees: What is p
"p" is just a variable, standing in for whatever you want it to. Sheesh.
I've always been told--and believe--God is not caught in time, is not bound by it, is outside of it. For God, like for my cats, it is always Now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Athos,
I think you may be right that the problem can not be solved by we mortals.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I suspect you're right, my friend. I tried to give you an "agree' but it wouldn't let me.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Yes, I have read your replies... :) Please read through each article... they will state that some studies have not found a connection. I am in agreement with you that some studies have shown there to be no connection. I never said they didn't. You had said that studies in the 1990's had found this to be true... I agree, that is the conclusion those studies came to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I was stating, and have shown, that there have been studies since that time and that, while some have also come to that conclusion, some of those conducting such research are not wholly convinced and that further studying takes place.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all... just simply stating that enough people believe in the possibility, so that possibility continues to be studied... in other words, to many people, it is not a done deal even if it is to others.
I'm sorry, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say.
"It isn't God's knowing that p that made p happen"
Of course God loves us, there's no debate there. God never stops loving us. That's a common misconception and I hate it when so-called "Christians" go around telling people that God hates them because they're gay, because they murdered someone, because they sleep around, etc. God hates our sin but still loves us.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
If nobody needed to sacrifice, then how do we cleanse ourselves of sin? What option do we have? Are you suggesting that we, as humans, are worthy of Heaven all by ourselves?
I'm not sure if "Johnny" is supposed to be Jesus, or us. Assuming it's us, we don't have to go to Hell. God doesn't give us one chance to sin and that's it, the same way you don't give your kids one chance. If you give your kids multiple chances and they continue to disobey you, what do you do? You punish them, correct? Why should God be any different? Why should we get a free pass to say, think, do what we feel without consequences? We have punishment in our world here; you break the law, you go to jail. What sense would it make to create a system of order, only to change the rules for the afterlife?Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Well god loves everyone and well he didn't have too pay for our sins but he did so the least you can do is respect his commands. Even if you disobey his commands Gods love is unconditional!! Always remember that:cool:mad:cool:
[QUOTE=this8384;1487061]Of course God loves us, there's no debate there. God never stops loving us. That's a common misconception and I hate it when so-called "Christians" go around telling people that God hates them because they're gay, because they murdered someone, because they sleep around, etc. God hates our sin but still loves us.
If nobody needed to sacrifice, then how do we cleanse ourselves of sin? What option do we have? Are you suggesting that we, as humans, are worthy of Heaven all by ourselves?
I don't like it when people say God hates people that are this or that too.:mad:
For me, "cleansing ourselves from sin" is something that happens every time I go to God with remorse, sorrow, with the sincerest promise to do better and ask for forgiveness.
I feel like God's response to me is , "of course, thank you for your sincerity , I believe you. Now, go along, continue doing the best you can, and I'll be waiting for you here in "heaven" when I call you home." And...never forget how much I love you."
How is that for another option?
See, no sacrifice by another person was needed for God and I to have this exchange. I am responsible for my own relationship with God. Yes, we are worthy if we choose to be. If you spend your life just smacking God in the face so to speak and live only for your own egoic needs, then you have screwed yourself.
I'm not sure if "Johnny" is supposed to be Jesus, or us. Assuming it's us, we don't have to go to Hell.
Johnny is us, also known as children of God
The parent here is God.
God doesn't give us one chance to sin and that's it, the same way you don't give your kids one chance. If you give your kids multiple chances and they continue to disobey you, what do you do? You punish them, correct? Why should God be any different? Why should we get a free pass to say, think, do what we feel without consequences?
I'm not saying that God should put up with continued disrespect. There should always be consequences for actions. And of course I know God doesn't just give us one chance.
What I am really referring to is the unyielding opinion that some christians have that no matter what good works you do, if you don't believe Jesus is your savior or that there is even a God, your butt is going to hell. I don't believe God is that cruel or that small. There are MANY reasons why someone believes as they do. I think God takes all that into consideration and is not that cut and dry with his reward or punishment.
No one that has a moral compass at all is going to think "I can do anything I want and all I have to do is ask for forgiveness and all will be fine". God knows the difference, he not that gullible.
That's the whole thing though. Old Testament practices didn't allow for us to approach God; that's why they had priests, the one person who was pure enough to enter into the Temple and ask God to forgive everyone's sin. Christ died so that we have that direct connection to God. We don't need a priest's forgiveness, which is why I don't agree with Catholicism; when we've sinned, we can go directly to God and confess. That was why Jesus sacrificed His life and is referred to as our Savior, because we had no direct path to God before His death and resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
That's why the Bible says "Faith without works is dead." You can't proclaim to believe God's Word and then not act on it. They go hand-in-hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
That's the whole thing though. Old Testament practices didn't allow for us to approach God; that's why they had priests, the one person who was pure enough to enter into the Temple and ask God to forgive everyone's sin. Christ died so that we have that direct connection to God. We don't need a priest's forgiveness, which is why I don't agree with Catholicism; when we've sinned, we can go directly to God and confess. That was why Jesus sacrificed His life and is referred to as our Savior, because we had no direct path to God before His death and resurrection.
I would hope that if I lived during that time that I would have the same thought process as I do now.
Just because the OT practice did not "allow" us to approach God one on one , I would still be a free thinker. Just like now, I'd say "who comes up with this stuff?"
YOU do what you gotta do. If that is to speak to God through a priest, go for it." Personally, I think God would love to hear from me direct.
What makes a priest anymore grand in Gods eyes than anyone else.? That sounds more like "pompous God". Did no one think for themselves. Just blindly follow the custom of the day? Geeesh!
Christ would not have had to die for that if people just thought for themselves.
cozyk
What makes you think that people in the OT could not have direct contact with GOd.
The OT had many cases of where people did just that.
Also why did Jesus establish a Church whose followers were the first priests?
Jesus also gave the Holy Spirit to guide them which The holy Spirit did and still does.
Think on that for awhile.
Also this, I am Catholic and I have much more direct contact with God than I do with my priests.
But my priest has the power to forgive my sins just as Jesus does. The difference is that of direct, face to face, confession of my sins which the priest helps me with.
And I do get an out loud verbal answer from the priest that I do not get from Jesus.
There is a great satisfaction in that.
I and a billion other Catholics (plus with some other denominations) have that great grace and joy that others without priest do not have.
Having been a Protestant for many years and now a Catholic for over 30 years has dramatically taught me that difference.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I agree Fred...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Such confessions are tangible remission of sin for the penitent; not a covering over of sin.
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What makes me think that? Read post 224 .
CozyK.
First of all I believe Jesus has the power to give anything He wants to.
The bible says that Jesus said to his apostles, "Receive the Holy Spirit" so I believe He did give them the Holy Spirit.
Next, I don't think that, I know it because Jesus gave his priests the power to forgive or bind sins when he said, "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:19). And again I believe Jesus.
Next the little confession booths were for security away from other parishioners but that has been done away with. Now days I sit in a separate room face to face with my priest.
Next there is a special time before Mass for those who want to confess.
Sometimes there are a few waiting. Also a person can ask for a special appointment. I have done so when I needed to.
Next the reason I left was because of the great hatred of the Catholics I witnessed with the Protestants and I began to wonder about that for I had seen unfounded hatred among people against people so I went to studying the Catholic faith.
You might say I went to the Dodge vehicle dealer not the Ford dealer to find the truth about dodge vehicles.
I found that the Catholic Church was much more accurate to what the bible said than what the Protestants were telling. Also I found that the Protestants were not telling the truth about what the Catholic taught about Mary, The Eucharist, Confession and other of their teachings.
So I became a Catholic.
I hope that answers your questions.
If you have more please ask.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Let me clarify; when I said that people in the OT couldn't "approach" God, I certainly didn't mean that they couldn't communicate with Him through prayer and worship. I meant in the aspect of the remission of their sins.
I believe that no religion can save you; faith can. Unlike Fred, I don't agree that a priest can forgive your sins; only God can forgive them. I don't believe that the Pope is holy because he's human, just like the rest of us and sins just as we do. I don't pray to Mary or believe she was holy, even though she gave birth to Jesus because she, too, was human and sinned just as we do. I believe what the Bible says about Jesus being the Way, the Truth and the Light.
It isn't the priest or minister who forgives the sins. It is God who does the forgiving. The priest is acting in God's place. Since we can't see God or hear Him audibly forgive our sins, the priest takes on the role of God in the formal setting of a church service or private confessional. But anyone at anytime, OT or NT or yesterday or today or in the future, can come to God to ask forgiveness. Never does the Bible say this cannot be done privately and personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by this8384
This is what I was referring to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I agree that anyone can come to God and ask forgiveness. I don't think it's necessary to confess to a priest because a priest has no control over whether we are forgiven; that is something God chooses to do because He loves us.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
this8384.
Do you believe that you can forgive sins?
I do.
Jesus taught us that and even so in prayer...
"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."
I believe that priests can forgive sins because Jesus gave them the power to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I don't believe that I can forgive sins, certainly not. I believe that I can forgive someone who may have hurt me and make a conscious decision not to harbor resentment against them. But if they don't repent of it, then it's still sin. Me not being angry about it doesn't make it okay for them to do.
OK... I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Nope this is the i~ i~ RED FLAG i~ i~ The priest never takes the role of God! Priests are partakers of what would be a heavenly calling, and should remain faithful to Jesus, The Anointed One. Their part in confession is instruction towards correctness, and in obedience of righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Agree... From what scripture has shown, when the priest instructed confession to be done, whether it was private or the entire congregation. The priest would direct each or all to make confession unto God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Note Isaiah when God tells us to come to Him, and together with Him talk of His promises. (Isaiah 43:26)
Isaiah 46:25-26 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Of course that's what the priest does. When he faces the altar, he is one with the congregation, just another lamb of God. When he turns to face the congregation, as when he pronounces the forgiveness of sins, he is acting in God's stead, in His place. The same goes for the rest of the liturgy. Please ask your priest or minister. It's standard liturgical practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I can just hear Adam saying, "Spit it out, Eve! Quick! Spit it out before the Lord walks over here again!"Quote:
I sometimes wonder what would have happened had Adam refused to eat and had reminded Eve of God's command about that particular tree.
Everyone knows that satan isn't man's greatest weakness ;D. Why did God give women such hypnotizing hips?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I have to spread the rep, Wondergirl, but this is a great point. I always make it a point to emphasize this with students. The guys don't like it! Go figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
All of the above sounds like a lot of pomp and circumstance to me. Too much brew-haha. If you have done wrong by God, go to God and humbly ask for his forgiveness. If you have done wrong by someone else, go to God and that person. Other than that, there is no need to involve anyone else. It is none of their business. God does not need a mediator and neither do we.
Their part in confession is instruction towards correctness, and in obedience of righteousness.
Instruction towards correctness?? That sounds strange.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:47 PM. |