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De Maria,
I do not believe that I was abusing or lying about Tj3.
I was expressing my opinion which I believe to be true from what he has been posting here.
But I will try to tone my posts like that down with more gentle wording or I will refrain from commenting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura).
An "opinion" which you know to be false because you have been told so many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Therefore either you are deliberately lying - which is abusive.
Tj3,
I'm sorry that you believe that way.
I am trying to be honest with you.
My opinion is an honest one for it is what I believe to be true.
But as I said, I will try to tone down my responses with gentler words or refrain from commenting.
I hope that make you happy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If that is true, then with all due respect, your memory is impaired. You should seriously have that checked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That would be a nice change. I look forward to the new Fred.Quote:
But as I said, I will try to tone down my responses with gentler words or refrain from commenting.
Tj3,
Thank you.
Fred
Mary is the Mother of God, attested to by the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. She is perpetually virgin, immaculately conceived, and assumed into heaven. The Nazarene woman, Mary, was born without ever knowing original sin being “FULL OF GRACE.” Her conception and birth was kept free from the stain of original sin and remained pure throughout her life.
Mary's Immaculate Conception:
The Virgin Mother of God would not be conceived by Anna before grace would bear its fruits; it was proper that she be conceived as the first-born, by whom "the first-born of every creature" would be conceived. They testified, too, that the flesh of the Virgin, although derived from Adam, did not contract the stains of Adam, and that on this account the most Blessed Virgin was the tabernacle created by God himself and formed by the Holy Spirit, truly a work in royal purple, adorned and woven with gold, which that new Beseleel made. Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854
You might recall the Tabernacle is the tent-like sanctuary of the Hebrews before the erection of Solomon's Temple, made permanent by King Solomon. The Tabernacle called, beth Yahweh, house of Yahweh included an outer court surrounded by a wall; an inner court; Holy of Holies. The Holy of Holies contained the veil that separated the Ark from the inner court. It contained the incense altar, the table of the Bread of Presence (12 loaves), the menorah, It was. This sanctuary housed the Ark of the Covenant, see Ex. 25-31 and Ex. 36 – 40 for additional information on the Tabernacle.
Mary was Ever Virgin:
You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius 383 c.
Roman Catholic beliefs:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854
JosephT
[QUOTE=JoeT777]Mary is the Mother of God, attested to by the Council of Ephesus in 431AD... [/quotes]
Whop cares about private interpretations of men? I am interested in what the Holy Scriptures say. And they deny that Mary is the mother of the trinity.
[QUOTE=Tj3]You should.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I am - that is why you see my standard of doctrine is scripture, and I do not rely upon the private interpretations of men as some others do.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Gee, that must be awful. Just think one small mistake and you are distorting God’s word. I surly wouldn’t want that responsibility. Thank God for the Roman Church.
JoeT
Tj3,
No one says that Mary is the mother of the Trinity (Three Beings), Only that she is the mother of God the Son (one being of the Trinity).
With God all things are possible. Do you believe that?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So you say God is not a trinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wow! Accusing God of making mistakes while suggesting that the men in your denomination don't!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV
Tj3,
NO!!
Not at all!
Please read what I said slowly so you can get it.
I mentioned the trinity (Three beings in One God)
No where, in no way did I say that God is not a trinity.
I have many times said that I believe in the Catholic Theology and Bible that God Is The Divine Trinity.
Of course you do know that it was The Church who first put forth the theology of The Trinity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And if Mary is not the mother of the trinity, then she is not the mother of God. God pre-existed her, and no member of the trinity pre-existed the rest. They all existed from eternity.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Actually, it was well before the church - the trinity is taught in the OT. Though I do agree that The Church taught it well before your denomination came into being.Quote:
Of course you do know that it was The Church who first put forth the theology of The Trinity.
If Mary is the mother of God, who is the father of God?
Jesus never called Mary "mother". He called her "woman".
Tj3,
I see that you still can not grasp that Mary IS the Mother of God The Son as the bible so indicates.
By the way My church is and was the very first Church. Jesus founded it on the Rock he called Peter as the bible so says.
That is a biblical and historical fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
There is no Biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: "But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus" (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
This is what I looked up and what I think... It says clearly that Joseph had no union with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to a son... who was her firstborn... therefore it does mention the other children you talked about, and I do believe that Jesus had 4 stepbrothers and more than 2 sisters...
Then you are denying the eternal nature of Jesus? Scripture says only that she was the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world in the flesh, NOT that she was the mother of divinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Scripture does not say that anywhere - oddly, no matter how many times it is shown to you what the context is, and what the word means in Greek, you ignore the facts. History shows that your denomination started in 325AD.Quote:
By the way My church is and was the very first Church. Jesus founded it on the Rock he called Peter as the bible so says.
Unless you are insinuating that Mary had more than one husband, you are mistaken. Because it is clear from Scripture that James, Joses, Simon and Judas are the sons of one woman named Mary. And since Scripture identifies James as son of Clopas. And also identifies another woman named Mary as wife of Clopas whose children are James and Joses. Then that means that woman is the mother of all James, Joses, Simon and Judas.Quote:
Originally Posted by BahamaMama
This same woman is mother of Salome. And since Mary of Clopas is identified as sister of Mary, that means that she and Salome are the "sisters" that is to mean, the "kin" of Jesus.
Here are the relevant Scriptures:
Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Apolonio's Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality
Sincerely,
De Maria
No, you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Here's the logical syllogism again.
1. Jesus is God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. therefore Mary is the mother of God.
But you deny this, therefore here is your logic in syllogism.
1. Mary is not the mother of God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. therefore, Jesus is not God.
So, it is you who deny the divinity of Jesus.
Mary: Mother of God
No one says that Mary is eternal.Quote:
Scripture says only that she was the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world in the flesh, NOT that she was the mother of divinity.
No one says that Mary is God.
But the Catholic Church says that Jesus is God the Son from all eternity and that God the Son decided to be born of Mary so He took on flesh and was conceived in her womb and was born to her in a little cave in Bethlehem and grew up to die on the Cross for our salvation.
Not so. We simply won't accept your false history. History shows that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.Quote:
Scripture does not say that anywhere - oddly, no matter how many times it is shown to you what the context is, and what the word means in Greek, you ignore the facts. History shows that your denomination started in 325AD.
Sincerely,
De Maria
There you go twisting words. You know that Arcura is a devout Catholic and Catholics believe in the Trinity. So what good does it do you to twist his words except to create strawmen and to poison wells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
In essence, it is just another indication that you don't have any compunction to misrepresent the teaching of the Catholic Church which Arcura represents admirably.
De Maria,
I see that you know Tj3 well and accurately.
You are correct.
Authentic History proves beyond doubt that The Church began 2000 years ago with Peter as it's first leader and that it still exists bigger than ever today.
Also, as the bible so indicates, Mary IS the mother of God the Son.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
That is true ONLY if you deny that Jesus is eternal, and the trinity. And if you make Mary divine.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Church began 2000 years ago. Your denomination began 300 years later.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Jesus is the only head that the one and only true church has ever had. Peter would have had to have been over 300 years old to be your denomination's first leader.Quote:
with Peter as it's first leader and that it still exists bigger than ever today.
Mary doesn't need to be divine for God to be born of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Do you deny that Mary is Jesus' mother?
If you deny either of those then you deny Scripture. If you affirm both of those, then you affirm the logical consequence. Mary is the mother of God.
However, if you deny that Mary is the mother of God, then you deny that Jesus is God. Because if you deny that Mary is the mother of God, then she can't be the mother of Jesus who is God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
But she does, and for divinity to be born of Mary, she would have to pre-exist God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rather than your suggestions, let me tell you what I do believe:Quote:
Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Do you deny that Mary is Jesus' mother?
- God is from eternity - Mary is not. Mary could not have conceived or birthed divinity
- God is a trinity. Mary did not give birth to the trinity.
- God created Mary, therefore Mary did not conceive divinity.
God chose Mary as a vessel through whom He would enter the world in the flesh. Mary is the mother of Jesus in the flesh.
I believe what scripture says. I do not extrapolate beyond what scripture says. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God began with Mary giving birth.
The Catholic Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
False.Quote:
Your denomination began 300 years later.
John Henry Cardinal Newman on when the Catholic Church was born:
Today the birthday of the Catholic Church, for the Gentiles came to it. From eternity in the councils of God. At length in time it began to be; it was conceived and lay in the womb. Its vital principle faith, therefore with Abraham especially it began. It remained in the womb of former dispensations its due time; long expectations; burstings of hope, till the time came; and was born when Christ came.
Newman Reader - Sermon Notes
If you twist history around your little thumb. But Scripture says when Jesus appointed Peter as the Church leader:Quote:
Jesus is the only head that the one and only true church has ever had. Peter would have had to have been over 300 years old to be your denomination's first leader.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Then you are denying Christ's Divinity. Because Jesus Christ is God even before He was matriculated in Mary's womb. And He is God after He was born of Her womb. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sincerely,
De Maria
The Catholic denomination began in 325AD - we've been through this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh - you never get tired of taking that out of context.Quote:
If you twist history around your little thumb. But Scripture says when Jesus appointed Peter as the Church leader:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
He was God long before He was in Mary's womb - that is why Mary is not the mother of God. You have just admitted that Mary cannot be the mother of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
This is a good question that deserves an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Tj3,
You are wrong about the Catholic Church and that Mary needed to be divine to give birth to God the Son and you have been wrong for a long time.
I have corrected you about that for years and provided biblical and historic proof which you continue to try to discredit or deny.
That's the facts; THE TRUTH.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.
Fred, all you ever do is tell us about your private beliefs and interpretations. I do not consider you the authority - I consider the word of God to be the authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Good question Wondergirl. I couldn't find your post to answer it directly but the answer is simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If Mary is the mother of God, who is the father of God?
Jesus' earthly mother is Mary. He has no earthly Father. However His earthly step father is St. Joseph.
The logical syllogism holds for St. Joseph.
1. Jesus is God.
2. St. Joseph is Jesus' earthly step father.
3. St. Joseph is God's earthly step father.
To deny it is to deny Jesus' Divinity.
Sincerely,
De Maria
If you considered the Word of God the authority, then you wouldn't deny that Mary is the mother of God:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Sincerely,
De Maria
To show you how silly these syllogisms that you created are, let's assume that your claims are facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
1)
Jesus is the Son of God.
Mary is the Mother of God.
Therefore Mary is the Grandmother of Jesus.
2)
Mary is the Mother of God.
Jesus is the Son of God
Therefore Mary is the wife of God the Father.
I could go on and on. The key issue is that once you leave out the truth of the trinity from the premise of the syllogism, you can come up with all sorts of silly conclusions.
This actually argues against you. Elizabeth did NOT say "mother of God", but rather chose another term indicating authority, used of both men and of God. Jesus is Lord, yes, and Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, but it is interesting that she chose the term "Lord" rather than "God" to describe Mary's status.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Merriam-Webster online dictionary: lord -- a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are dueQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Let me get this straight, you are arguing that the Holy Spirit inspired St. Elizabeth to say that Jesus is not God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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