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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Fair enough... I just thought it amusing that I'm supposed to give HIM a quote that he uses in his signature.

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But I don't use it in my signature and never have. That is an outright blatant lie, and you have proved in on here.

What you picked was a link from a webpage whiich is linked from a webspage which I do not control or own, which was linked from my webpage which was linked from my signature.

It was not in my signature as you have now claimed twice, and the second time is a deliberate lie because you have already noted that it was not in my signature, nor even on my webapge.

So tell me, is lying endorsed by your denomination?

So far you have called me stupid, and lied about me to defend your position.

Do you think lying about me is enhancing your argument at all? Or are you simply trying to distract from the bankruptcy of your argument?

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

On the other hand, it must be tiring to read a post by a misinformed individual attacking your church with the same tired lines, when all he is doing is parroting something that he's heard. (Which is not to say that I agree with your church's theology.)

So, I can sympathize.

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Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

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But will we see an apology for your false accusations and abuse? Remember, the rest of us were trying to discuss the topic - you were the one who de-railed the discussion with abusive comments.

Well Scott, I see that you have posted no retraction of apology for your libellous and false accusations (even though you were in fact on line when I posted my previous response and have been on-line since).

The fact that you had to go to a link of link of a link off my webpage to another webpage tells me that you could not find the hoped for "hateful" comments on my page or on anything that I wrote, so you went elsewhere and then falsely attributed the comments to me. That speaks well of my site that your best efforts could find nothing to honestly complain about on site.

To be honest, your behaviour on here calling those who disagree with your denomination "stupid" and "ignorant" and liars" and this comment, followed by your refusal to withdraw the comments or apologize speaks louder than anything that I could ever say, or would ever say about your faith. And you note that I have said nothing derogatory about the adherents to your faith.

Yes a person may make a mistake, but how you deal with it after that is what tells us what your faith means to you in real life, or as we read in scripture:

James 2:20-21
0 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
NKJV

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

Oops, spelling error!

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Just practicing

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Originally Posted by arcura

A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.

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There is no way to look at the supposed purgatory, in a positive way.
How can extreme agony that may last for centuries, in a fire that melts rock, e.g. the lake of fire in the centre of the earth.
How any-one can believe that a loving Father, could put His beloved children, that is, those that chose to follow his Son, into such extreme suffering.
The idea comes from the worship of Molech where they passed their children through the fire.
Actually, I believe the had a statue of Molech, probably bronze, with outstretched hands.
They had a raging fire inside the statue that had it almost glowing red.
The drumming and the chanting covered the screams of the baby as it was placed into the hands of the statue and cooked and burnt alive.


The idea of purgatory has been around a long time, Plato, who lived between427 to 347 BC, spoke of the Orphic teachers of his day " who would flock to rich mens doors and try to persuade them that they have a power at their command, which the procure from heaven and which enables them by sacrifices and incantation, to make amends for any crime committed by the individual himself, or his ancestors. their mysteries deliver us from the torments of the other world, while the neglect of them is punished by an awful doom." (Smith , "Man and his gods" P. 127)

There is an elaborate description of purgatorial suffering in the sacred writings of Buddhism.
There were times that there were so many Chinese buddhists that came to buy prayers for the deliverance from purgatory that special shops were set up for this purpose.
In the religion of Zoroaster, souls are taken through twelve stages before they are sufficiently purified to enter heaven.
The Stoics conceived of a middle place of enlightenment which they called Empurosis, that is, "a place of fire".
According to Moslem doctrine, the angels Munnker and Nekier question those who die as to their religion and prophet.
Many of these go into purgatory, but through money given to a priest, an escape may be provided.
The concept of giving money on behalf of the dead is very ancient, a point which may be seen in the Bible itself.
Apparently the Israelites were exposed to this belief, for they were warned not to give money "for the dead"(Deut 26:14)
After presenting detailed evidence for his conclusion, Hislop says:"In every system, therefore, except that of the Bible, the doctrine of purgatory after death, and prayers for the dead, has always been found to occupy a place" ( Hislop. "The two Babylons P. 167)
it is very possible that concepts about purgatory and certain ideas linked with Molech worship, all stemmed from the same source.
It appears that various nations had the idea that fire, in one way or another, was necessary to cleanse from sin.
The Israelites were repeatedly forbidden to let their seed " pass through the fire to Molech"
(Lev.18:21 Jer. 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10)
Molech, (who some identify with Bel or Nimrod), was worshipped "with human sacrifices, purifications, with mutilation, vows of celibacy and virginity, and devotion of the firstborn."( Fausset's Bible Encl.)
( Babylon Mystery Religion P. 71-72)

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Originally Posted by arcura

God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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This is a double-barreled statement spoken. First you tell us God decides the judgement of sins. Then you appoint yourself in judgement by saying they go to heaven. Who put you on the right hand of God? I rebuke your statement in the Name of Jesus.

1 Samuel 2:2-3 There is none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let [not] arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

Matthew 15: 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

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Originally Posted by arcura

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Fred,

I do appreciate your answer. Part of the reason I asked is that there seems (from what I can tell discussing this topic with my friends) to be an "official debate version" of purgatory and a "popular version." My memory is a little foggy, but it seems my Catholic Catechism mentions an indulgence of 3 years for reading the Bible for 15 minutes. (Or 3 years off purgatory time. I can't remember which, I'll have to check it.)

Rob

p.s. Just to be clear, I am not Catholic, nor do I believe that the Bible teaches Purgatory. Yes, I have read the Apocrypha, much of the fathers, and the entire Bible several times including the often quoted proof texts for purgatory such as Luke 16:24; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Corinthians 3:15... I'm simply trying to get a handle on the RC view.

This is interesting but again it is using 1 Corinthians 3 that is the Judgment day of works not sin to justify believing purgatory.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

Everything I read that put a time on purgatory said 12 months

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Originally Posted by arcura

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.

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Fred, that argument is getting a bit old, but I would be interested in seeing you provide some scriptural backup for the claim.

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God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.

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Jesus purged ALL my sins.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Note that this is clear that He (Jesus) purged the sins of those who are saved "by himself".

As for who forgives our sins, it is, once again, Jesus:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

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The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom. In the famine years in Ireland in the 1883, when Ireland was under the rule of the British Empire. Irish people were not educated, were dependent on the potato as the main diet. When this food chain was destroyed by 'blight; the British allowed nearly two million Irish to starve. There was no under nurished priest in Ireland and my Grandfather recalls young men and women being buries where they fell. No, I do not believe in Purgatory. That will be the next admission by the Catholic Church. All have their suffering in one form or another.

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Originally Posted by eastsun123

The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom.

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No they have not.

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Catechism of the Catholic Church #1261

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,

Tj3 agrees: Quite true. And you can never get an answer as to how many indulgences or masses for the dead that you pay for will release you or your loved one from [purgatory.

Yeah and in fact I have heard them say that it is not true that you have to do indulgences, masses or pay their way out. Also the Bible clearly shows PERSONAL relationship so no man can intervene for another other than prayer WHILE they are STILL alive.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,

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Fair enough... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

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Not a very Christian attitude, now is it?

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude

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Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else..?

Once again, on purgatory:

Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Fair enough.... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

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The essentials of the Christian faith were known and grasped by the Apostles, and presented in God's word so that we too would have what it is that we need to know. Indeed, the essentials of the gospel of jesus were found in the Old Testament:

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Therefore if purgatory or any other doctrine (i.e. transubstantiation, papal infallibility, existence of a pope, calling Mary a co-redemptrix, etc) were part of the Christian faith, it would have been addressed in scripture. Anything which is not in agreement with scripture is not part of the Christian faith, and other non-essentials may exist which God chose not to reveal to us which we are in the flesh. In any case, scripture says not to go beyond what is written.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else....???

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Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy)

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Where does scripture say that?

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

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... but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

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By Jesus, according to scripture, not through purgatory.

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Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15

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1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.

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1 Pet 1:7)

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1 Peter 1:7-8
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV

Note that your faith is tested by fire. This is an example of how your faith is tested:

Heb 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
NKJV

Not in purgatory.

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In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

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Read the whole context:

1 John 1:7-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

1 John 1:8 is not speaking about in death, but note that 1 John 1:9 destroys the doctrine of purgatory.
In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

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Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

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Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

No, it says that sin cannot be forgiven after death. You apparently missed the "not". BTW, if you are assuming that because it referred to this sin as not being forgiven in death means that other sins can be, that is not a logical conclusion.

If your mechanic told you that the cylinder in your car is damaged so bad that it cannot be fixed, it does not mean that cylinders in other cars similar damaged can be fixed. This is a defined logic fallacy.

the topic here was sin against the Holy Spirit, and as we can see unless everything is nailed down people established new doctrines where scripture is silent. If Jesus had not been specific about it not being forgiven after death, someone would have come up with a doctrine saying that it can be forgiven after death, maybe even in purgatory.

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The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.

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I can point out the doctrine of trinity using the rules of logic, and going by what scripture does say, not by the absence of what it says, and going by what it explicitly says, and can prove the trinity in either the OT or NT (in fact it is more strongly stated in the OT), but you cannot do the same with purgatory.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for ‘wrongs’ they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

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John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

This could be seen two different ways. First, it could be seen as a special privilege given to the Apostles. If so, then that is a privilege which has gone away since scripture is clear that there have only been 12 Apostles, and there are no more today.

It could be seen as being common to all disciples, since it refers to disciples, not Apostles, in this passage, and if so, it would be a privilege given to all believers.

You are correct that it is not clear in the specifics, but I would suggest that the most likely explanation is that insofar as we are in harmony with the Holy Spirit, we will be acting in accordance with the will of the Spirit. In this case, it is not so much that these men could decide to forgive sins, but rather than these men insofar as they were submitted to the will of the Holy Spirit and spoke in accordance with the Holy Spirit (i.e. prophetically) were declaring the forgiveness of sins. This does not give any men (apostles or not) the right to make up new rules around the forgiveness of sin - that was decided already by God - so it has no relevance to the doctrine of purgatory.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

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Good points.

This would also be contrary to scripture because through indulgences, it would be easier for the rich man to get to heaven than the poor man, simply by buying enough indulgences, or paying in advance for enough masses for the dead.

Jesus' view of how easy it was for money to get us to heaven is:

Luke 18:24-25
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
NKJV

Suggesting that money somehow is a substitute payment for sin, in my opinion, cheapens the immense and infinite value of the price paid by Jesus on the cross for our sin. We need to keep in mind also that everything that we own is not really ours in any case, but everything - all of it - belongs to God, therefore by trying to pay Him with what He rightly already owns further cheapens the value of His sacrifice on the cross.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone’s sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

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I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I don't think this "power" was given to each person who has received the Holy Spirit... but only the Apostles and those who followed them in the office of Bishop.

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I can see how one might argue it was to the apostles, but there is no indication whatsoever that this would apply to anyone else who followed after them since there only have been 12 Apostles. If you disagree, then show us from scripture where it expands its application beyond the Apostles.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

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Your refer: this as proof of purgatory? {{{Rebuke your false teaching}}}

Mal 3:2-3 But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

This is proof of Christ !

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Your refer: this as proof of purgatory?

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Not "proof" of anything... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.

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This is proof of Christ !

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Okey dokey.

God bless you my friend.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying that you do not accept scripture as God's word?

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My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

My opinion says he doesn't.. especially after his last message to reply of scripture.

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Are you referring to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

John 20:22-24
As this passage seems extremely clear, it also seems extremely complicated.

Do you have further interpretation of this? As it stands, it seems as though we who have received the Holy Spirit could go about forgiving everyone's sins. However, I assume they would also have to want sins forgiven.

Or could this mean, those we forgive for 'wrongs' they have done to us personally. Forgive my ignorance on this verse. I just want further insight if possible.

thanks

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My opinion would be to try and understand what the disciples were seeing for the first time after seeing Christ on the cross. And to confirm that notion, Jesus shows them the signs of His last appearance by showing them His side and hands. Further more Jesus gives them the Spirit which grants them the ability to acknowledge His presence being real. The last verse was spoken by Jesus to assure them, that they themselves had nothing to fear in not believing what they had first thought in their hearts, but rather telling them Jesus found understanding in their fear and forgives them. Plus if they were in question of each others thoughts, Forgive one another. It is Christ that will judge our hearts.

I trust we must remember what the disciples were always taught in understanding that you must believe in Christ.. For a moment might they have thought their own heart had sinned by not believing it was He that stood before them.

Find comfort and rest in Christ, He is the Word of God.

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

Let's also note that Jesus was aware of everything before hand. He knew that even Thomas was next to come and doubt. Surely Christ would want the disciples to be forgiving to Thomas's doubts.

John:24:24-25 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

The depth of our sin is great, but the purity of our forgiveness thr Christ is greater

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

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Yes, I was refer: you and your previous post.

Posting #230

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Not "proof" of anything.... I don't believe in "proof texts"... bit silly I feel.

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My reply is respect the Word of God.. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

My reply is respect the Word of God .. and your posting in #230 is contrary to 2 Timothy shown.

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Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Are you refering to me?

I believe we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

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I notice that you did not answer the question. The way that you worded this, the truth could be buried somewhere in the scriptures, but the scripture may not be fully inspired by God.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Nope... simply just contrary to your opinion of what the verse means.

You do understand the difference between an objective truth and a opinion, right?

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If you are saying that everything comes down to "opinion" about scripture, then you would end up with postmodernism, not orthodox Christianity. Postmodernism being the belief that we can all just sit around, discuss our opinions and whatever comes out on top must be the truth.

There are some things in scripture which are not clear and others which are abundantly clear. Where it is clear, we must submit ourselves to what it says. Where it is not clear, we must be carefully about making it doctrinal. Where scripture is silent, we may speculate, but we must again not make our speculations (or traditions as the case may be) doctrinal.

Peter Wilson.
Purgatory is NOT hell.
All we know about Purgatory comes from a few verses in the bible.
Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.
1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)
So a person loses his/her sinful nature and is therefore saved and goes to heaven.
We do not know what a person in Purgatory goes through but I suspect that it is different for each person depending on his/her sins during moral life.
An elderly person I know who is now going through difficult health and other problems thinks that he may be going through a taste of Purgatory now because his conscience is giving him a thorough working over as the memories of his past are filling his mind.
Who knows, that may be a part of it.
But the fact remains (as the bible tells us) impurities are not allowed in heaven.
So if a person is to go there he/she most be pure or purified.
Forgiving sins is one thing but the nature of a person to have done those sins is another.
Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by arcura

Purgatory is NOT hell.

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No, Hell exists.

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Here is what we know that about person whose sinful nature is purged.

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Jesus Himself purges the sins of those who are saved - no purgatory.

Heb 1:3-4
He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

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1 Cor. 3: 15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. (NJB)

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1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Refers to our works. For example, is our foundation Jesus Christ, or a man? Any works that we have done which are not for Him will be burned up prior to the judgment, and the crowns were be reward on the basis of those works which remain. This does not refer to purgatory in any way shape or form.

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Even if the sins are washed away as though they had not happened the nature to be sinful still remains.

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Not according to scripture.

Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

For those who are saved, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and 1 John 1:9 says that we are cleansed of all sins. That takes care of both sin and righteousness. Nothing else is left. Jesus finished the work on the cross.

Tj3,
Believe as you want to now.
Later you will Know that Purgatory exists for sure.
Pace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)