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Originally Posted by Tessy777

Action,

you misunderstood me. I do believe baptism is important. I believe anyone who professes Christ SHOULD be baptised. However, it is not a requirement for salvation. I have friends who believe it is...thats ok. I don't like to fight and argue of the WORD! It is too important and I have found that I haven't changed anyone's mind. I pray the Holy Spirit will do that for me or for them....whoever may be in error. Is Jesus GOD? He most certainly is....he is the Great I AM! How awesome is that ...anyway?

No, we don't black out any verses. We put them in context, we understand who they are written to, when they were written and why they were written. It is about learning to understand how to read the Bible properly. Should we black out this verse? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALT BE SAVED and they house. IF i read that correctly, it doesn't mention baptism AND all the times the apostle Paul gives the gospel, never ever does he say baptism is a requirement. It just isn't there.

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I apologize for arguing with you. I come from a family of 8 siblings and that's about the only way we passed the time, generally speaking. You are my sister in Christ. We are on the same path. I do put more importance on baptism that you do but as long as you agree that it should be done, no harm no foul. I do hope that if someone decides to be baptized that they don't do it with a flip attitude or just because their friend is doing it or for show, etc. I hope that they understand that they are about to enter into a relationship with their Saviour and their Creator. I believe it should be taken seriously just like taking communion should be done with the proper attitude and desire. God bless you, your family, your community, and your church.

Tessy 777. I have read your posts. Quite honestly, we agree to disagree. You apparently feel that scriptures are there for us to read but not abide by and that we can select certain scriptures to abide by. Believing is a part of it yes. But there is instructions for after you believe in Mark 16:16 Jesus Christ said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and these signs shall follow them that believe... In my name shall they cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues -If I am not mistaken, that is clearly telling me about salvation because it explained what I need to do to be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

So you believe but now what? James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles in Caesarea that he preached to the Jews and the other nations at Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Ghost; spake with other tongues; and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Read Acts 10:44-48). The scriptures were not just for us to read and think that that type of salvation was just for the jews. The enemy would like for us to think that.

The Apostle Paul met John's Disciples who had not received salvation , and said unto them, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you Believed?" (Acts 19:5). You have to believe according to the scriptures. (St. John 7:38). John's Disciples said unto Paul, We have not so much heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul said unto them, "unto what then were you baptized?" Paul went on to explain the truth unto them, about the baptism. They obeyed and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues, (Acts 19:1-6).

Nowhere in all of the Bible can it be found where God's Ministers told the people bow their heads and raise their hands and receive Jesus right where they are, without mentioning repentance, baptism or receiving the Holy Ghost.

Apostle Paul said: "If an angel from heaven preached any other gospel except that which they have preached, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8-9.

Romans 6:3-4, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." As Jesus Christ, through his own death condemned sin in the flesh and raised by the glory of the Father, you also, when you are baptized into Jesus Christ, being baptized into his death, can rise and walk in the newness of life.

Col. 3:17; "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him."

I will conclude by saying this? How can we just some scripture forget all the rest and say this one seems right. I'll just believe. What are your works after you believe because it is written that Faith without works is dead. The bible does not contradict itself. In other words there are not mulitple ways for salvation. We have to study all verses and pray for understanding in all things.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Peace be

I agree to agree with Tessy777!

Belief in Christ (faith) saves you- not works!
Did Jesus Command Baptism in Order to be Saved?

It may be a command- like loving your neighbor- but not loving a neighbor will not condemn you either.
I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism.

I don't believe that God is Jesus, I believe that God is what many perceive as the heavenly father and that Jesus is his Son. The reason that I say many perceive his as the heavenly father is because there are those among the religious background who believe that there is also a Goddess.

Before the Christian body begins to slam that idea, think about this. God has asked us not to judge others for how they believe in him or perceive him. Who are we to question that? Every country has their own way of perceiveing God, so does each nationality. God made us in his image, and he made, whites, blacks, asian, etc, etc etc. we are all different. Some believe in the way that the Jewish do, others believe as the Muslim, etc. We are all gods children, whether we are protestant, catholic, Muslim, or even Pagan. He doesn't love one any less than the other

Shel, I don't see that anyone has to be saved if they have a believe in a higher spirit, period. How are we saved? Do we have soldiers surrounding our cities fighting for us? Do we accept christianity as others want us to? Can they give us a guarantee that their religion is the one that will see us into heaven? We all go to heaven whether we are muslim, jewish, catholic, christian or pagan. That is the unique thing about God, he made each person in his image, that means the blacks, chinese, Natives, etc. so therefore, God must also be of the same religion as each person that he has put on this earth, and he has asked that we not judge but to love, accept and to believe

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Originally Posted by jayb09

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles in Caesarea that he preached to the Jews and the other nations at Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Ghost; spake with other tongues; and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Read Acts 10:44-48).
The Apostle Paul met John's Disciples who had not received salvation , and said unto them, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you Believed?" (Acts 19:5). (St. John 7:38). John's Disciples said unto Paul, We have not so much heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Paul said unto them, "unto what then were you baptized?" Paul went on to explain the truth unto them, about the baptism. They obeyed and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues, (Acts 19:1-6).
Romans 6:3-4, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." As Jesus Christ, through his own death condemned sin in the flesh and raised by the glory of the Father, you also, when you are baptized into Jesus Christ, being baptized into his death, can rise and walk in the newness of life.

Peace be

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Howdy Jayb09. Apparently, we're the minority when it comes to our understanding of the importance of baptism and God's divinity. I guess we just have to remember that there is a broad path and a narrow path.

I came across another passage that may add to your substantial armory. Acts 8:35-38, "Then Phillip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him (the eunuch) Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, 'See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?' And Phillip said, 'If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

Clearly, Phillip was not prepared to baptize the eunuch unless the eunuch first professed that he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

During this study, I came across a sinister thing. I have a collection of many different versions of the Bible. When I looked up this verse in the "New American Bible (not the New American Standard Bible) which is published by the Catholic Press, I found that verse 37 was totally omitted. The number 37 was in brackets [37] but the verse, itself, was gone. I then looked in the "New Jerusalem Bible" and found that it was omitted from that version as well. In fact, when you read the passage, the verses are numbered like they are in other Bibles except in this case it was numbered :35, :36, :38, :39. The number :37 was simply not there. The 37th verse of Acts chapter 8 was purposely removed. That is a major sin against God and His Word. The New Jerursalem Bible is a popular Bible used by a mega-church that bases many of its beliefs on tradition rather than the Word of God. Apparently, verse 37 must have gotten in the way of one of its traditions. It's also missing from the "New International Version." Again, the number 37 and the corresponding verse are missing.

With so many "new" Christians using the "new" versions of the Bible, it's no wonder that that they discount so much of God's Word. Satan has certainly done his job and continues to do so.

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Originally Posted by ActionJackson

During this study, I came across a sinister thing.

The 37th verse of Acts chapter 8 was purposely removed. That is a major sin against God and His Word.

Satan has certainly done his job and continues to do so.

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AJ--Some food for thought. In the New King James Version, the footnote to verse 37 says:

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"NU-text and M-text omits this verse. It is found in Western texts, including the Latin tradition."

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The preface describes the manuscript texts referred to in some detail, and ends with the following statement:

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With the assistance of these footnotes, which show lines of textual divergence more fully than commonly provided with English language versions of the Bible, it is trusted that readers will be enabled to better appreciate the substance and degree of variation in the manuscript sources of the New Testament.

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So it turns out that some manuscripts include the text and at least two significant ones don't include it. In a situation like this what do you think is the proper thing for a translator to do?

Are you really sure it's Satan who's responsible for the choices that some translators have made to leave it out? Is it Satan's doing that multiple manuscripts of various ages and sources have survived and that they aren't all identical in every particular? I'm always fascinated to know people's assessment of how much of what exists and what happens is Satan's doing.

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Originally Posted by nanajo1

Shel, i dont see that anyone has to be saved if they have a believe in a higher spirit, period. How are we saved? do we have soldiers surrounding our cities fighting for us? Do we accept christianity as others want us to? Can they give us a guarantee that their religion is the one that will see us into heaven? We all go to heaven whether we are muslim, jewish, catholic, christian or pagan. That is the unique thing about God, he made each person in his image, that means the blacks, chinese, Natives, etc. so therefore, God must also be of the same religion as each person that he has put on this earth, and he has asked that we not judge but to love, accept and to believe

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JESUS SAID... I am the way, the truth and the life... NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME. John 14:6

I didn't say it... so don't get ticked at me. Either Jesus is God and He is truth or he is a liar. That is something you need to decide.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

AJ--Some food for thought. In the New King James Version, the footnote to verse 37 says:
The preface describes the manuscript texts referred to in some detail, and ends with the following statement:
So it turns out that some manuscripts include the text and at least two significant ones don't include it. In a situation like this what do you think is the proper thing for a translator to do?

Are you really sure it's Satan who's responsible for the choices that some translators have made to leave it out? Is it Satan's doing that multiple manuscripts of various ages and sources have survived and that they aren't all identical in every particular? I'm always fascinated to know people's assessment of how much of what exists and what happens is Satan's doing.

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The word "Satan" simply means adversary. There are many satans and there is Satan. Regardless of how you see satan, I do believe that there are those who seek to alter or even destroy God's word for one reason or the other. Satan may use some people without them even knowing it.

I believe that the Textus Receptus is the most complete and correct English translation of God's Word. If you were to study the way in which the Authorized King James Bible came to be you may very well appreciate it a great deal more than you currently do (not that you don't but I say that in a general sense). The translators went to painstaking length to get an exact translation and they checked and cross checked each other's work. The process took years. I have several books that discuss the various translations of the Bible. I strongly urge you to get a book called "New Age Versions" by Riplinger. Super good book but long. If you like to read, you will like it.

Anyway, the fact that the new translations, using the very same numbering system as the King James, simply skipped over that verse. I find that very fishy. If they didn't believe that it belongs in the Bible, then verse 38 should have become 37 and 39 would have become 38 ,etc.

Tessy 777 and Retroia. It is certainly not my intention to offend. I often find that when people speak on about different things in the bible that some may not agree with it causes strife and that certainly is not my intention. As stated previously, we agree to disagree. I know that the Lord is soon to come and I am trying to make my calling and election sure.
I leave you with a scripture that I read last night

Bear in mind that I have never given you something made up by man but everything I have provided is in the scriptures. You both stated you are saved because you believed if I am not mistaken. I leave you with this scriputure

Galation 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
Galatians 2:17E ven so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Galatians 2: 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Glory be to God! The word of god is quick, powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword

Peace be unto you!

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

JESUS SAID....I am the way, the truth and the life....NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME. John 14:6

I didn't say it.....so don't get ticked at me. Either Jesus is God and He is truth or he is a liar. That is something you need to decide.

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Tessy you were not being attacked. But as You said yourself, you need to decided what is a lie and what is the truth.
In the eyes of god wea re too treat all who are on this earth equal. As you also quoted, No man comes to the father but by me!
That means all men, women and children despite their religion, if they believe in god and jesus then they will pass. And those who also believe in a goddess or what ever the Indians think of as their higher power will also pass

If you read the bible closely instead of quoting it, each bible is different, as has been pointed out, all religions have their own intrepretation, WHY? Because Not one of us were there at the time of creation, the bible was written by men over time to bring some form of rules and regulation to what people do or perceive. w
Will the man who believes in the christian god get into heaven and the catholic be left behind, NO. Will the Jew, or the Menonite, NO. No one religion is any beter than the other that is all I was saying. As I was also trying to state, if we all folled in gods foot steps, we would not be judgmental of others because of their beliefs. THAT IS WHAT I WAS SAYING and I am sorry that you feel that I was attacking you sweety. I love all man, woman and child, despite their beliefs, likes, dislikes, color or creed.

Retroia your statement surprise me "It may be a command- like loving your neighbor- but not loving a neighbor will not condemn you either." That is surprising statement because it completely contradicts the word of God. As servants of God we are supposed to abide by the scriputures. We are supposed to abide by God's commandments but you are stating that we don't

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Ephesians 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man

There is punishment written in the scriptures for not obeying his commandment

Isaiah 48:18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! Then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea

Amos 2:4 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments


Romans 3:4 says: "Let God be true and every man a liar."



I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism

I also meant to address your statement Retroia when you said "I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism". I am actually still waiting for the proof because thus far I have not seen any proof but that baptism is a requirement

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Originally Posted by jayb09

Tessy 777 and Retroia. It is certainly not my intention to offend. I often find that when people speak on about different things in the bible that some may not agree with it causes strife and that certainly is not my intention. As stated previously, we agree to disagree. I know that the Lord is soon to come and I am trying to make my calling and election sure.
I leave you with a scripture that I read last night

Bear in mind that I have never given you something made up by man but everything I have provided is in the scriptures. You both stated you are saved because you believed if I am not mistaken. I leave you with this scriputure

Galation 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Galations 2:17E ven so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Galations 2: 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Glory be to God!! The word of god is quick, powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword

Peace be unto you!

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Very good verses but they are all from James rather than Galatians. I've already used these but to no avail... maybe coming from you, the seed will be planted. God bless.

Jayb09,

I think you didn't read the link with my post. Who are you to judge now? About loving neighbors? It means doing them no harm.

This is my last post about faith is what's required for salvation. I won't engage in foolish arguments.
Peace Brother!

John 6:35-51 (New International Version)
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

I like this example of Grace and works. “One day, a group of small boys were swimming. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, they were learning to swim; for none could take more than a few strokes. Just below them a short distance down the stream was a treacherous hole much beyond their depth. Into this, either through bravado or accident, one daring youngster either plunged or fell. He became helpless to save himself; and for a moment his companions were powerless to aid him. Fortunately, one with presence of mind and quick action, jerked a long stick from a willow fence and held one end of it toward the drowning lad. The latter grasped it, held on tightly, and was saved.

“All the boys declared that the venturesome lad owed his life to the boy who furnished the means of rescue.”

Jesus is like the rescuer and his atonement is like the stick. Jesus offers us the Atonement as the way to receive forgiveness. When we repent, we reach out to accept the Atonement just as the drowning boy reached out to grasp the stick. If we accept the Atonement by repenting, we will be forgiven and not have to continue suffering for our sins. We can learn from our mistakes and continue to progress. We will be stronger and wiser if we have overcome our faults and have learned from our experiences.

There are those who claim that no one will sink and be lost if he will look to Jesus on the shore and say, 'I believe.' There are others who declare that every one must by his own efforts swim to the shore or be lost forever. The real truth is that both of these extreme views are incorrect. Christ redeemed all men from death which was brought upon them through no act of theirs, but He will not save men from their personal transgressions who will put forth no effort themselves, any more than the young rescuer on the river bank could have saved the drowning lad if the latter had not seized the means provided him.

Neither can man save himself without accepting the means provided by Christ for man's salvation.”

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

Jayb09,

This is my last post about faith is what's required for salvation. I won't engage in foolish arguments.
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I don't believe that seeking the truth and discussing God's Word is foolish but that's just may opinion. I do understand the feeling you're experiencing. I had no idea until I joined this forum just how disjointed the Christian community really is. First of all, I rarely find two people who read from the same "versions" of the Bible so it's almost impossible to share ideas when the various versions spin God's Word in so many directions. Then, I am amazed at how much disdain for the Old Testament there is within the Christian community. I am literally shocked. I thought that all Christians loved the Whole Testament of God but every time I speak of God's word, some 3rd grader spits out this Buddhist chant "yeah, but that's the Old Testament, yeah, but that's the Old Testament," etc. It's literally heartbreaking to realize just how much people hate the "Old" Word of God. Most don't seem to realize that Christ and the Apostles quoted from the Old Testament all the time. Anyway, see you.

We should correct each other out of love, I was almost certain that you are going to bite off AJ's head. If someone disagree with you concerning the bible, the best thing you can do for that person is to pray for them ;)

Hi Retroia,

I am certainly not trying to argue with you nor am I casting judgment upon you. You made a statement that I knew was inaccurate according to the scriptures. I did not express any of my own opinion but showed you what it said in the scriputures. Your statement was that not obeying the commandments does not condemn you and according to the bible, that is completely untrue. Please don't take offense.

Hi Retoia,

I read the article you left the link too. Quite honestly, I am a little confused because the article seems to go on about how the author does not believe that anyone has to be baptized to be saved but near the end of the article says " Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' command. " That's a direct quote. So if Jesus said it and the author admits ,it how does anyone feel that they should not comply because you don't have to obey all of God's commandments? I'm confused as to what the writer is actually trying to convey and quite honestly. He believes in it but yet he doesn't

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Originally Posted by jayb09

Hi Retoia,

I read the article you left the link too. Quite honestly, I am a little confused because the article seems to go on about how the author does not believe that anyone has to be baptized to be saved but near the end of the article says " Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' command. " That's a direct quote. So if Jesus said it and the author admits ,it how does anyone feel that they should not comply because you don't have to obey all of God's commandments? I'm confused as to what the writer is actually trying to convey and quite honestly. He belives in it but yet he doesn't

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" Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' command. However, we should also love our neighbor for the same reason. I know that we do not keep this entire command, because only God can demonstrate this kind of unconditional love. Does this mean that we will lose our salvation? No!"
__________________________________________________ ______________
What I am saying is that baptism is works- works whether they be obeying the Moral Laws (10 Commandments) or instructions from Jesus' teaching. Now, this person is also saying that baptism is not required for salvation, period. Now, once one is saved, this is when we try to follow all the teachings (works) as a good & faithful servant. We sometimes have trespasses- but if we repent (bc we were convicted in our Spirit) then the Lord is faithful to forgive us.
If someone commits adultery(a Christian) are they condemned? No, convicted but not condemned. Can repent. (OR, have more serious consequences than just dealing with your spouse- in THIS LIFE! )
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Baptism is of works. If not being baptized would have condemned one then Jesus would have put it right out there with the unforgivable sin(Rejection of Jesus Christ)

Originally Posted by Marily
We should correct each other out of love, I was almost certain that you are going to bite off AJ's head. If someone disagree with you concerning the bible, the best thing you can do for that person is to pray for them

Or better yet, study and end up agreeing. Your heart is in the right place Marily. Each of us were given different gifts of the Holy Ghost (assuming that we all repented and were baptized in Christ's name). You have a healing spirit and a calming affect. I have another gift that may not be quite as easily acceptable by some but plays a part in the overall picture nonetheless. Someone is always trying to "bite my head off" but that's okay. It usually means that I'm pushing a few buttons. If everyone that entered this forum always agreed with each other all the time, we would bore ourselves to sleep. I like the clashing of steel and the wielding of shields. It's fun.

Tessy777 agrees: someone who "believes" in Jesus wants to follow him. Repentance is something I WANT to do because of what HE did for me.

Like I want to obey the Commands of our Heavenly Father because I want to please Him. Same difference. I believe in God and I believe that Jesus Christ is God and I want to do what God wants me to do. He wants me to love Him and my neighbors by not stealing from them, by honoring my parents, by putting Him in the supreme position as the only God, by following His example and resting every 7 days, by not wanting what my neighbor has, by not killing people, etc.

""And, behold, one came and said unto Him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?' And He (Jesus Christ) said unto him, 'Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'" Matthew 19:16-17

AJ

This is kind of off the thread (but many of these posts are off thread) you say observe the sabbath. Does that mean Friday evening to Satruday?

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

AJ

this is kinda off the thread (but many of these posts are off thread) you say observe the sabbath. does that mean Friday evening to Satruday?

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Yes ma'am. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the true, biblical Sabbath.

Jesus never actually said that he himself was God but sent by God..
There are one or two controversial translations that suggest that the epistle writers were saying that Jesus is God but not so clearly that one should stake ones life upon.
There is never a discussion by any Gospel preacher presenting Jesus as God but rather the son of God.. The "only born son of God" ( Begotten) Monogenes( greek) tranlsated when not used of Jesus as " the only born child" " only born son" " only born daughter".
It is very clear that the church came to believe that Jesus was God But not so clear that this was taught by anyone in the Bible.
Image of the invisible God.. Does not make it a claim to be the invisible God..
Before Abraham Came to be so I am the one.. would be a fair rendition of The John 8 text The Church has applied this text to its theology and we are taught that it reflects a claim to be the very God that Jesus came to reconcile us to..
But you will find that nowhere in the scriptures is anyone required to believe that Jesus is God in order to be reconciled to God by Jesus' suffering and death and God resurrecting Him from the dead and giving him total authority over Gods creation.
The Gospel is really simple.
Confess ( make Jesus your master and confess him so) and believe from your heart that God raised him from death...
The suffering and death of Jesus removes Sin from the stained soul by faith.. But God Forgives any and all who will turn from sin... It is the removal of sin from the soul that enables reconciliation to God and it is this cleansed state that prepares the individual for Gods Annoiting of His indwelling spirit.
But there is never a requirement to believe that Jesus is God in order to receive Gods Grace and blessing.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Personally, I'm kinda glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.

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Mulsims believe that Jesus was a mighty prophet, but not that he is the Son of God. It is a straightforward position, that Christians, naturally, reject, but it makes sense to Muslims. Jews are similarly affected but not to the same extent.



M:)

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Originally Posted by galveston

Personally, I'm kinda glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.

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Muslims believe that Jesus was a mighty prophet, but not that he is the Son of God. It is a straightforward position, that Christians, naturally, reject, but it makes sense to Muslims. Jews are similarly affected but not to the same extent.



M:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ActionJackson

Yes ma'am. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the true, biblical Sabbath.

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It is the Isralitish Sabbath, but Chrisitans met together on the First day of the week - Kiriagi - the Lord's Day, and thus it was from the earliest times of Christianity.

There are some groups of Judaizers who do not accept Jesu' finality in fulfilling the law and lay the obsrvances of Isralitish ritual on Christians, but it is not proper to do so.

Acutally - think about this - no one knows which day was the original Sabbath for the Bible says only the seventh day of seven days is to be a day of rest. Who knows what day it was when God called the evening and the morning the first day?



M:)RGANITE

[


John 13:1
1 ¶ NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:2
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;


But He does say in the Gospels that the last meal was a passover meal.LK22.. MK 14 MT 26 Not sure I would want to to that dismissed because John presents it with some other description..
The passover celebration which Jesus desired ( longed to celebrate with his disciples) does not change the establishment of the memorial meal or The fact that Jesus becomes the passover lamb and supercedes the Law and brings in the life of the spirit in reconciliation to God.
The Law and the prophets were until John since then the Kingdom of God is coming by force.. Any attempt to reestablish the points of the law only go to reveal that someone has missed the point or is treying to bring into bondage.
For freedom Christ has set you free.. You are free from the law only do not use your freedom as an occasion for the flesh but by love serve one another.. As you have noted..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fitnahpolice

On the contrary what you believe will happen at the end of time is a slap in the face of justice. No person will bear the burden of another and every man shall pay for his own deeds. None will die for another - not even a Prophet! Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for our sins. But he lived to show us how to stay away from sins. He lived to show us the light and the path to paradise.

Salvation is not simply having faith in Jesus as our savior. True salvation is in being Jesus-like - in his obedience to God, his character, and in every aspect of how he lived!

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That's part of the mystery that God has sent his own born son to take your place in death so that you might have a chance to taste life... But it's a faith offering. If you know that your sin deserves death then open the heart to hear God call you to the salvation (freedom from sin) offered In The Messiah.. God will no doubt forgive you if you turn away( repent of sin) But If you accept his offer of identification with Jesus' death then you can begin a new life transformed by The resurected King... God offers Christ as a substitute for your death a death that is the only thing that can separate us from Sin... Otherwise we retain our sin and end up at the judgement seat of Christ ( Gods appointed King) still in sin.. still bound by sin and still awaiting its consequence..

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" that's a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

The context is that of The Hebrew recognition of Abraham as the head of the Race... Anfd Jesus identifies himself as that Head having been made so before Abraham.. Its not a Play back on the words spoken tomoses at all.
In the Hebrew one might us e the term I am that I am... But better it would be said.. The ever existent one.. But even this wopuld be incorrect as Moses wrote in picture words not a direct language. Then his writings would never have said I am.. rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyway The septuagint written 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you... IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common reference in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
In fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He"..
Not as some claim " I exist" it's the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He... I am that one... Certainly one cannot find reference to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.They considered this to be a blasphemous act.. Abraham after all was the one they recognized tohave begun their journey... He was the one Jesus used to identify the place of peace and rest.. Abrahams Bossom..
There is not need to impose what is not there as the church often does in its attempts to make claims for its theology...

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Originally Posted by Starman

The Elohim part of your argument answered at the following site.

ELOHIM Singular or Plural

Excerpt:

"Elohim. G-d, gods, judges, angels. ... The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of G-d. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. ... The term occurs in the general sense of deity some 2,570 times....by Harris, Archer, & Waltke; Moody Press, Chicago; 1980, Vol. 1; Article: Elohim; page 44, #93c).

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The so called plural majesty has no connection to anything ancient, and is not found anywhere in the world until fairly recent times. It is unknown to the Hebrews, Egyprians, Babylonians and all other ancient kingship nations.

Elohim means 'god ' 'male' 'plural.' It is properly rendered 'the gods,' but it is impossible to ascribe any particular number as there is no indication of number, only plural and masculine.

M:)

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Originally Posted by shel3811

It really doesnt matter to me because Jesus was sent by God to save us due to his grace and mercy, God sent his son. So when it all boils down, it really doesnt matter if he was God, hes a special human being and I praise him as Lord that love us all and continues to love us and bless us. I see him daily

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I disagree! IT DOES matter. You can't boil it all down to HIM being "a special human being". HE IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!! There is a difference. My children are "special human beings"... HE IS KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, and BEFORE ABRAHAM... "I AM." Oh... and one day... EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that JESUS IS LORD.

Moganite - Then... Shel would be WRONG! That is my point. Intolerant? I know, I've been called that before. I believe in absolute truth.. not a popular idea these days... so sue me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yor1

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" thats a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

Then his writings would never have said I am..rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyways The Septuagint written 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you...IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the Septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common reference in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
in fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He" ..
not as some claim " I exist" its the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He....I am that one....Certainly one cannot find reference to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.

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If I could add my two cents here.


Jesus could have said, 'before Abraham was I AM' or <I AM was before Abraham.

The tetragrammaton yhvh is Hebrew for "He that is," in other words, "I AM," meaning the verb 'to be' as he told Moshe, Tell them that "I AM" = "he who IS" has sent you.

Whether this is a proper name is moot, but it is most likely an acceptable description for "The Living God." Hebrews considered yhvh or 'lhm to be the only living God, and all the rest imaginary. Thus, Hebrew usage supports the use of the term I AM to mean yhvh incarnated as Jesus.

The focus on the English counterpart has to be on the meaning of 'AM," which is the verb "TO BE." That is exactly the same as saying "I am Alive," "I live," "I am the one," etc, and arguments against that view are strictly semantic and is rooted in English comprehension rather than in Classical Hebrew, which is where the argument must be made, and the only place it can be made.

Now as to the suggestion that Jesus is looking to Abraham as the head, nothing could be further from the truth.

No Jew claims to look to Abraham for anything other than descent. Jews, and ancient Israel, looked past Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and even Moshe to God, and to God alone. Jesus was making an affirmation that he was the 'existent one' - the 'living God' known to their fathers, and that he predated Abram.

The sense of the argument is that the Jews at the time of Jesus told him that they had all they needed because they were descendants from Abraham, as if that were sufficient for their eternal salvation. Jesus disabuses them of this false notions, for it is not lineage or descent, but faith, that provides salvation, and Jesus is indicating in language that his hearers would clearly understand that he was the great yhvh, which is why they charged him with blasphemy because 'you make yourself equal to God.'.

The simplest form of understanding for the tetragrammaton is: "the existing One" George Tate has pointed out that for him "the feature that most distinguishes John from the other Gospels is the overt, spoken comparisons Christ makes between himself and details of the exodus." One such image appears in the announcement of John the Baptist, "Behold, the Lamb of God" (1:29), with its obvious allusion to the unblemished lamb prescribed for sacrifice during the Passover. When challenged by the Pharisees, Jesus meaningfully gives them one of the titles of the Old Testament Jehovah, "I Am" (8:58).

I doubt, incidentally, that many Christians perceive all that this response clearly implies about the overarching role of Christ as Jehovah [or yahweh] in the history of mankind. With equal significance he refers to himself in chapter 14 as "the way, the truth, and the life" (14:6) while in chapter 10 he is the "door" to the sheepfold (10:9) and also the "good shepherd" (10:11), thus pointing to a further scriptural antecedent in the twenty-third Psalm. In chapter 11 he is "the resurrection and the life" (11:25) and in chapter 15 "the true vine," of which Christians are the "branches," fruitful or otherwise.

They found fault with Jesus Christ because He said He was the Son of God, and made Himself equal with God. What did Jesus say? "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods? If He called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, say ye of Him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?" It was through Him that they drank of the spiritual rock. Of course He would take the honor to Himself. Jesus, if they were called Gods unto whom the word of God came, why should it be thought blasphemy that I should say I am the Son of God?

Jesus quotes: "I have said ye are Gods, and all of you are children of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6). Of this scripture, Jesus says: "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are Gods," and he quotes with evident approval these inspired words of David, for he adds—"the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:33); that is, the scripture of David saying, "ye are Gods," is true, it cannot be gain-said. Nor is this endorsement of David's utterance weakened by the subsequent remark of Jesus, "If he called them Gods unto whom the word of God came," etc.; for, when considered in the light of all the Psalmist said, and all that Jesus said, the "called them Gods" by no manner of means signifies that they were not Gods. David said, "ye are Gods, and all of you are children of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6).

The Jews then accused Jesus of blasphemy, because he had said he was the son of God (John 10:36); in defense, Jesus quoted the passage from the Psalms where it is said of men, "ye are Gods; and all of you are children of the Most High"—as showing that he was but claiming for himself the relationship that in the law of the Jews was accorded to men—sons of God, children of the Most High, and hence, he was not a blasphemer. In other words, if the Psalmist could say to those he addressed, "all of you are children of the Most High," why should he, the Christ, be considered a blasphemer because he called himself the Son of God?

Deuteronomy 31:24
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Moses did not write in pictographs, but most probably in paleohebrew, of which some extremely early examples have been found. It is an alphabetical - aleph-beth - language with signs that were derived from pictorial daubs [gimel for camel, beth for house, etc] , but that were at the time of Moshe identified as alphabetical characters and are clearly writing in the modern acceptance of what writing is.

Josephus in his first book against Apion ascribes the most ancient books of the Hebrew race—the Pentateuch, the five books—to Moses, and in contrasting the Hebrew literature with that of the Greeks, he says:

"We, therefore, (who are Jews) must yield to the Grecian writers as to language and eloquence of composition; but then we shall give them no such preference as to the verity of ancient history, and least of all as to that part which concerns the affairs of our several countries. As to the care of writing down the records from the earliest antiquity among the Egyptians and Babylonians; that the priests were intrusted therewith, and employed a philosophical concern about it; that they were the Chaldean priests that did so among the Babylonians, and that the Phoenicians, who were mingled among the Greeks, did especially make use of their letters both for the common affairs of life and for the delivering down the history of common transactions, I think I may omit any proof, because all men allow it so to be. But now as to our forefathers, that they took no less care about writing such records, (for I will not say they took greater care than the others I spoke of,) and that they committed that matter to their high priests and to their prophets, and that these records have been written all along down to our own times with the utmost accuracy. ... "
(Antiquity of the Jews, Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book 1, pp. 582-583.)

The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet also know as Ktav Ivri is an offshoot of the Phoenician alphabet used to write the Hebrew language from about the 10th century BCE until it began to fall out of use in the 5th century BCE with the adoption of the Aramaic alphabet as a writing system for Hebrew and the subsequent emergence of the Hebrew alphabet.



M:)RGANITE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yor1

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" thats a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

The context is that of The Hebrew recognition of Abraham as the head of the Race...Anfd Jesus identifies himself as that Head having been made so before Abraham..Its not a Play back on the words spoken tomoses at all.
In the Hebrew one might us e the term I am that I am... But better it would be said..The ever existent one.. But even this wopuld be incorrect as Moses wrote in picture words not a direct language. Then his writings would never have said I am..rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyways The septuagint writen 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you...IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common refernce in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
in fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He" ..
not as some claim " I exist" its the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He....I am that one....Certainly one cannot find refernce to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.They considered this to be a blasphemous act..Abraham after all was the one they recognized tohave begun their journey ...He was the one Jesus used to identify the place of peace and rest.. Abrahams Bossom..
There is not need to impose what is not there as the church often does in its attempts to make claims for its theology...

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Clearly Jesus DID identify himself as "I AM," which is why he was charged with blasphemey.

M:)RGANITE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yor1

[


John 13:1
1 ¶ NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:2
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;


But He does say in the Gospels that the last meal was a passover meal.LK22.. MK 14 MT 26 Not sure I would want to to that dismissed because John presents it with some other description..
The passover celebration which Jesus desired ( longed to celebrate with his disciples) does not change the establishment of the memorial meal or The fact that Jesus becomes the passover lamb and supercedes the Law and brings in the life of the spirit in reconciliation to God.
The Law and the prophets were until John since then the the Kingdom of God is coming by force..Any attempt to reestablish the points of the law only go to reveal that someone has missed the point or is treying to bring into bondage.
For freedom Christ has set you free.. You are free from the law only do not use your freedom as an occassion for the flesh but by love serve one another..As you have noted..

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Controversy has been rife for many centuries as to the day of the passover feast in the week of our Lord's death. That He was crucified on Friday, the day before the Jewish Sabbath, and that He rose a resurrected Being on Sunday, the day following the Sabbath of the jews, are facts attested by the four Gospel-writers. From the three synoptists we infer that the last supper occurred on the evening of the first day of unleavened bread, and therefore at the beginning of the Jewish Friday.

That the Lord's last supper was regarded by Himself and the apostles as a passover meal appears from Matt. 26:2, 17, 18, 19 and parallel passages, Mark 14:14-16; Luke 22:11-13; as also from Luke 22:7, 15. John, however, who wrote after the synoptists and who probably had their writings before him, as is indicated by the supplementary character of his testimony or "Gospel," intimates that the last supper of which Jesus and the Twelve partook together occurred before the Feast of the Passover (John 13: 1, 2); and the same writer informs us that on the following day, Friday, the Jews refrained from entering the Roman hall of judgment, lest they be defiled and so become unfit to eat the passover (18:28).

It should be remembered that by common usage the term "Passover" was applied not only to the day or season of the observance, but to the meal itself, and particularly to the slain lamb (Matt. 26: 17; Mark 14: 12, 14, 16; Luke 22:8, 11, 13, 15; John 18:28; compare 1 Cor. 5:7). John also specifies that the day of the crucifixion was "the preparation of the passover" (19:14), and that the next day, which was Saturday, the Sabbath, "was an high day" (verse 31), that is a Sabbath rendered doubly sacred because of its being also a feast day.

Much has been written by way of attempt to explain this seeming discrepancy. No analysis of the divergent views of Biblical scholars on this subject will be attempted here; the matter is of incidental importance in connection with the fundamental facts of our Lord's betrayal and crucifixion; for brief summaries of opinions and concise arguments refer to Smith's Comprehensive Bible Dictionary, article "passover"; Edersheim's Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, pp. 480-2, and 566-8; Farrar's Life of Christ, Appendix, Excursus 10; Andrews' Life of Our Lord, and Gresswell's Dissertations.

The apparent inconsistency may be explained by any of several assumptions. Thus, first, and very probably, the Passover referred to by John, for the eating of which the priests were desirous of keeping themselves free from Levitical defilement, may not have been the supper at which the paschal lamb was eaten, but the supplementary meal, the Chagigah. This later meal, the flesh part of which was designated as a sacrifice, had come to be regarded with veneration equal to that attaching to the paschal supper. Secondly; it is held by many authorities on Jewish antiquities that before, at, and after the time of Christ, two nights were devoted yearly to the paschal observance, during either of which the lamb might be eaten, and that this extension of time had been made in consideration of the increased population, which necessitated the ceremonial slaughtering of more lambs than could be slain on a single day; and in this connection it is interesting to note that Josephus (wars, vi, ch. 9:3) records the number of lambs slain at a single Passover as 256,500. In the same paragraph, Josephus states that the lambs had to be slain between the ninth and the eleventh hour (3 to 5 p.m.).

According to this explanation, Jesus and the Twelve may have partaken of the passover meal on the first of the two evenings, and the Jews who next day feared defilement may have deferred their observance until the second. Thirdly, the Lord's last paschal supper may have been eaten earlier than the time of general observance, He knowing that night to be His last in mortality. Supporters of this view explain the message to the man who provided the chamber for the last supper, "My time is at hand" (Matt. 26:18) as indicating a special urgency for the passover observance by Christ and the apostles, before the regularly appointed day.

Some authorities assert that an error of one day had crept into the Jewish reckoning of time, and that Jesus ate the passover on the true date, while the Jews were a day behind. If "the preparation of the passover" (John 19: 14) on Friday, the day of Christ's crucifixion, means the slaughtering of the paschal lambs, our Lord, the real sacrifice of which all earlier altar victims had been but prototypes, died on the cross while the passover lambs were being slain at the temple.



M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by arcura

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

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Hi

To answer your question. Yes because Jesus said you see me you see my father and you see my father you see me.
Misty1947

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

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Such as?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

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Arcura,

Jesus Christ is the Begotten son of God the father. Jesus is also a God. According to the Bible on Hebrews 1:8 " But to the Son He saith, Thy throne, o God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. (visit Members of the Church of God International and www.esorianowordpress.com)