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  • Oct 2, 2007, 09:14 PM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    I share that assumption with historical precedent.

    It is well to remember, however, that from earliest days the majority of Christian interpreters followed the Jewish tradition in referring the passage to the coming of Israel's Messiah. It seems clear to these interpreters that the longing all nations have in common must be their yearning for the Deliverer, whether or not they realize the nature of their desire or the identity of its true fulfillment in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    (Source: The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

    I would suggest that the onus is on you to come up with a feasible alternate interpretation.

    The onus is on me huh ? Then let me quote from the Bible Encyclopedia at Desire of all nations (WebBible Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net. And I quote:
    "Desire of all nations."
    (Hag. 2: 7), usually interpreted as a title of the Messiah.
    The Revised Version, however, more correctly renders 'the desirable things of all nations', i.e. the choicest treaures of the Gentiles shall be consecrated to the Lord.
    End quote.
    Notice, it says it is "usually INTERPRETED as a messianic title, not that it actually refers to a title of the Messiah. Furthermore it says it is more correctly rendered in the Revised Version of the bible as "desirable things" ( not thing, singular, as in a single person ), referring to, not the Messiah, but the nations, the Gentiles, more specifically, their treaures. I have provided a christian site that refutes the traditional Christian view. I haven't actually searched for what Orthodox Jews interpret this phrase to be, but I will be on it shortly. I stick by what I said in my earlier answer to you; you merely assume because of SOME interpretations, that the phrase is a title of the Messiah. According to the Bible Encyclopedia it is referring to the treasures of the Gentiles, not a Jewish Messiah.
  • Oct 2, 2007, 09:35 PM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nigel5
    2 billiion christians! Thats a 1/3 of the planet!

    So what ? So 1/3 of the globe believe the bible. That means there are even more, 4 billion, who don't believe the bible. Furthermore, numbers doesn't make truth. The whole world (millions of people) used to erroneously believe the world was flat. Just because they all believed it didn't make it the truth. And don't tell me that in the first century there was not wars & rumors of wars, & pestilences, & famine, & earthquakes, & false christs, & persecutions. The generation living in the first century saw all the signs mentioned by Jesus. They also witnessed the one major sign that allegedly heralded the imminent return of Jesus... the Roman siege & destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. under Titus. Yes, indeed, Jesus meant that generation of his day would see all these things be fulfilled (Matt. 24.). He meant to the high priest (Mark 14: 62), I will return in the clouds within your lifetime.He meant to the disciples he would come again in the first century before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel (Matt. 10: 23). Yes, indeed, Paul, Peter, & John believed he would come again in their lifetime. Wake up man ! Come out of your dark ages of ignorance & superstition. Jesus is not coming at any time ever. He is dead & gone.
  • Oct 2, 2007, 11:53 PM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deist
    ...Wake up man ! Come out of your dark ages of ignorance & superstition. Jesus is not coming at any time ever. He is dead & gone.

    I know this is the Christian thread,but Jesus (alaihi salaam) did not die, he was taken up to Heaven and is still alive,he will descend during the end times and establish the truth.
    Deist, even if you do not believe,when this event happens and if you are alive then you may believe me.
    Then you will realise the term "faith" better,know that all of us have to be always prepared for our own deaths even if Jesus(alaihi salaam)descends during our time or not.
    Those who are in this world during his(alaihi salaam) descent are very fortunate to be able to see with their own eyes the belief held all their lives.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:31 AM
    nigel5
    Dear friend,
    The word shall be preached to all the corners of the earth... then shall the end come.


    GET THIS!

    GOD IS THE ONE WHO SETS THE TIME, THE PLACE THE HOUR, AND THE AGE.


    All we do is watch for the signs. The main ones being the antichrist and the mark of the beast... yes and am betting u'll say that's already happened... yeah right! The great tribulation? The re-birth of the nation of israel in 1948? The sighning of the seven year peace treaty with the anti-christ? The world split into 10 kingdoms? One ruler the antichrist and the false prophet? The bowls of wrath and the dying of a 1/3 of the earth? The falling out of the saints and persecution?The darkening of the sky? The apearance of the 3 prophets? The ganging up of all nations against israel? The rebuilding of the temple? The abomination of desolution in the temple? The list is practically endless!"This generation" is still not here my friend! Sheeesh!

    And yes numbers don't justify being on the right... so what do you mean to say? 4 billion pple are Aethists? NO! 2 billion are christians! But not all will go to heaven too... Only God knows that. Yes, pple believed the earth was flat back then! EVEN JOB WAS BEEN ASKED QUESTIONS BY GOD AND HE Couldn't ANSWER THEM! You didn't see God giving him an answer book did you?

    My point is: No prophets, disciple, men, angels or even the messiah In THE BIBLE gave a SPECIFIC TIME WHEN HE WOULD come. You said it yourself, people have always "THOUGHT" he was coming but...


    He didn't!
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:40 AM
    nigel5
    What you believe in... is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian... so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious... am sure you have family members too.. bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


    "brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"
  • Oct 3, 2007, 06:06 AM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nigel5
    Dear friend,
    The word shall be preached to all the corners of the earth.......then shall the end come.


    GET THIS!

    GOD IS THE ONE WHO SETS THE TIME, THE PLACE THE HOUR, AND THE AGE.


    All we do is watch for the signs. The main ones being the antichrist and the mark of the beast....yes and am betting u'll say that's already happened.....yeah right! The great tribulation? The re-birth of the nation of israel in 1948? The sighning of the seven year peace treaty with the anti-christ? The world split into 10 kingdoms? One ruler the antichrist and the false prophet? the bowls of wrath and the dying of a 1/3 of the earth? The falling out of the saints and persecution?The darkening of the sky? The apearance of the 3 prophets? The ganging up of all nations against israel? The rebuilding of the temple? The abomination of desolution in the temple? The list is practically endless!"This generation" is still not here my friend!! Sheeesh!

    And yes numbers don't justify being on the right.......so what do you mean to say? 4 billion pple are Aethists? NO! 2 billion are christians! but not all will go to heaven too...Only God knows that. Yes, pple believed the earth was flat back then! EVEN JOB WAS BEEN ASKED QUESTIONS BY GOD AND HE COULDNT ANSWER THEM! You didn't see God giving him an answer book did you?

    My point is: No prophets, disciple, men, angels or even the messiah In THE BIBLE gave a SPECIFIC TIME WHEN HE WOULD come. You said it yourself, people have always "THOUGHT" he was coming but..........................


    he didn't!

    Nowhere did I say that four billion people are atheists. I said four billion didn't believe the bible. I'm one of those four billion & I'm not an atheist, I'm a Deist. Among those four billion are Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, Pagans, Deists,Hindus,Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, & etc. Every generation since Jesus uttered the words, "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled", thought they were the generation referred to. It is no different today, & it will be no different in the next generation if christianity is not extinct by then. Every generation has seen what they thought were the signs Jesus mentioned, yet Jesus didn't return then, & he is not going to return now or at any time in the future. The Christians thought at the time that Nero was the Antichrist, later they thought the Papacy was the Antichrist, then it was Hitler or Mussolini, later it was Reagan, then Clinton. Christians thought the social security number was the mark of the Beast, then it was the universal product code, now it's the dermal microchip. In the 1970s a false rumor was spread by fundamentalist Christians that there was a giant supercomputer in Luxembourg nick named the Beast that would play a role in events leading to the second coming. The Old Testament's alleged prophecies of the rebirth of Israel had no reference to May 14, 1948. The rebirth of Israel occurred in the return from Babylonian captivity under Cyrus the great. As I said, every generation since Jesus' time thought they were seeing the signs, & every generation will continue to do so as long as there are Christians.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 06:19 AM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nigel5
    What you believe in...is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian...so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious....am sure you have family members too..bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


    "brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"

    There are plenty of intelligent Christians in the world, so what ? I doubt that the intelligent ones are premillennial dispensational fundamentalists, as you seem to to be. Take the founding fathers of the United States. Most of them were not Christian, most were Deist, Mason, or Universal Unitarian. If you need proof of that see article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams himself & ratified by Congress in 1797. Article 11 states that the government of the Unites States is in NO WAY founded on the christian religion. Yet far right wing fundamentalist reconstructionists have tried to change history itself, by saying the US is founded upon Christian principles. The founding fathers intended for the US to be a secular nation where there was freedom of religion, with no one religion representing the US to the world.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:05 AM
    Capuchin
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nigel5
    What you believe in...is what you believe, But you have no right to say 1/3 of the planet is ignorant and superstitious! Mind you these pple are teachers, proffessors,doctors,scientists,lawyers,students and the like. The brightest minds of the 20th and 19th century have been christian...so don't for one second call others ignorant and superstitious....am sure you have family members too..bet you're not thinking about them being part of that number huh?


    "brother shall turn against brother and father against sons"

    It's quite a well documented fact that the more education you receive, the less likely you are to be religious.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:17 AM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Capuchin
    It's quite a well documented fact that the more education you recieve, the less likely you are to be religious.


    Are we to assume by your answer that being educated puts you at a higher thinking or reasoning level than the Creator (God)? ALso based off this we can assume you (more educated people) know better than say people back in biblical times of what they witnessed first hand and/or experienced and recorded?

    Faith and belief again is not conventional and not everything can be put in little boxes and discussed as "black and white" There are, believe it or not, things that you just need to trust and believe. I know trust is a difficult thing for many and many don't even trust their parents, loved ones, etc so why trust God or the Bible or religion. I get all that.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:30 AM
    michealb
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by firmbeliever
    I know this is the Christian thread,but Jesus (alaihi salaam) did not die, he was taken upto Heaven and is still alive,he will descend during the end times and establish the truth.
    Deist, even if you do not believe,when this event happens and if you are alive then you may believe me.

    I think religion is about controlling the masses so that they have blind faith in leadership but if Jesus descends from the heavens on throne made of clouds or something like that I think that would be enough to convince me. That being said its not going to happen and if I'm wrong may any being, god, powerful force, angel, devil or ghost strike me down where I sit... hmm still here I must be right.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:44 AM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    I think religion is about controlling the masses so that they have blind faith in leadership but if Jesus descends from the heavens on throne made of clouds or something like that I think that would be enough to convince me. That being said its not going to happen and if I'm wrong may any being, god, powerful force, angel, devil or ghost strike me down where I sit....hmm still here I must be right.


    I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test... wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!
  • Oct 3, 2007, 09:15 AM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test...wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!

    We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 09:18 AM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deist
    We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.

    OK
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:17 PM
    StuMegu
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    I would be very cautious to put God, Jesus, etc to the test...wouldn't you want to believe in Jesus and potentially be wrong in the end than not ever believe at all and then find out you were wrong!

    What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

    Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:35 PM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StuMegu
    What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

    Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.


    The problem as I see it is... that you want your cake and eat it too... you want live life by your rules but when the end comes you are then willing to "conceed" to God to save yourself... sounds pretty selfish
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:38 PM
    StuMegu
    You don't get it do you - did you see the bit about "don't take me seriously" - I put that there for a reason!

    Just as you send all other religious people to hell if you're right, all the other religions will (probably - can't really speak for all of them) send you to hell for believing in the wrong God.

    Are you ready for that outcome?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:41 PM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StuMegu
    What about all the other religions we would be upsetting further by following your God? Safer to believe none (correctly)and (should the fairytale come true) jump on the correct bandwagon at the end whilst the real (don't take me seriously - seriously) God mames all the followers of the "False" Gods.:D

    Now, tell me the flaw in my logic.

    Purely from a believers point of view, I think when you want to believe at the last minute/second it maybe too late.:)

    Like when your last breathe escapes your lips.
    When you are dying and you realise the truth.

    For me the example that comes to mind is the Pharaoh of Mose's time.
    He had it all, kingship and loyal subjects at his beck and call,power,money and fame,
    On his last breathe as he drowned he said he believed, but it was too late for him.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:43 PM
    StuMegu
    Please see my post #216
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:49 PM
    firmbeliever
    I saw that after I posted... :)
    And from their view I may belong in Hell as well.:)
  • Oct 3, 2007, 12:53 PM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StuMegu
    You don't get it do you - did you see the bit about "don't take me seriously" - I put that there for a reason!!

    Just as you send all other religious people to hell if you're right, all the other religions will (probably - can't really speak for all of them) send you to hell for believing in the wrong God.

    Are you ready for that outcome?


    The short answer to your question is YES.

    The problem with your statement is that religions and/or people don't send anyone to Hell only God does! So Yes I am completely confident that I will be judged accordingly by God at the end times. Are you?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:08 PM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    The short answer to your question is YES.

    The problem with your statement is that religions and/or people don't send anyone to Hell only God does! So Yes I am completely confident that I will be judged accordingly by God at the end times. Are you?

    You don't believe in Allah, e.g. you believe in Yahweh. But what if you're wrong ? Then you will go to the Muslim version of hell. I'm willing to concede that if I'm wrong I could go to the Christian or Muslim version of hell. Why aren't you willing to concede it ?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:13 PM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deist
    You don't believe in Allah, e.g., you believe in Yahweh. But what if you're wrong ? Then you will go to the Muslim version of hell. I'm willing to concede that if I'm wrong I could go to the Christian or Muslim version of hell. Why aren't you willing to concede it ?


    I don't believe I am wrong! It is as simple as that, I have experienced Him personally in the good times and bad and have seen Him do wonderfully powerful things. He indeed exists, that is what I believe.

    Why would you be willing to concede anything if you believe in it?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:48 PM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    I don't believe I am wrong! It is as simple as that, I have experienced Him personally in the good times and bad and have seen Him do wonderfully powerful things. He indeed exists, that is what I believe.

    Why would you be willing to concede anything if you believe in it?

    It's obvious; if the Christian God exists, I'm going to hell. If the Muslim God exists we're both going to hell. If the Deist God exists, no one is going to hell, & there may not even be an afterlife. How do know that those wonderfully powerful things you've witnessed wasn't Allah extending you a mercy in hopes that you would see his truth ? It's all just belief really, nothing more. My belief is as good as yours. The Muslim's is just as good as mine, but they all can't be right, & maybe even none of them are right, not even the Atheist's belief or lack thereof.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 01:56 PM
    michealb
    I don't want to play by my own rules. I am willing to follow the laws of the country I'm in and even willing to follow the reasonable ethics of the country that I'm in. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't do others harm except in self defense. I try not to lie. Here is a big one, I have never wished that anyone be tortured for an eternity for their ideas. I have never told someone that they will be tortured for eternity. I probably am a better person than 90% of the religious folks out there as far as just general laws and ethics. I am a good person not because I fear punishment. I am a good person simply because it is the right thing to do and the more people that are good the better the chance my offspring will have.
    Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right. I on the other hand try to convince you to live this life to it's fullest and longest. If there really is an angry old man in the sky you have a much better chance at picking the wrong religion than the right one since there are thousands of religions and your all convinced that there is only one correct one. It falls under the same reason I don't play the lottery sure it's only a dollar a week and if I win it's big but the chances are so low it's not worth the buck.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 02:07 PM
    michealb
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deist
    It's obvious; if the Christian God exists, I'm going to hell. If the Muslim God exists we're both going to hell. If the Deist God exists, no one is going to hell, & there may not even be an afterlife. How do know that those wonderfully powerful things you've witnessed wasn't Allah extending you a mercy in hopes that you would see his truth ? It's all just belief really, nothing more. My belief is as good as yours. The Muslim's is just as good as mine, but they all can't be right, & maybe even none of them are right, not even the Atheist's belief or lack thereof.

    Done that question with mountian_man before her is the jist.

    Originally Posted by michealb
    What if the bible was inspired by Hades to lure you away from the worship and the truth of Zeus. Do you not think that a god is not capable of fooling man? How do you know what god inspired man to write the bible? There are so many gods that man has lost count. The point is you don't know for sure it takes faith in something impossible and you believe it because it's what your parents believed and what their parents before them believed. If you were born in a muslim house hold you would be muslim and would be talking about how the koran is the truth. This blind faith is why you can't use the bible as a historical text because once you start allowing religious text as historical fact it's a slippery slope.

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    I don't agree at all... you are talking about all god's collectively as if they are one... there is only one true God and that God inspired the Bible... the Bible is so much more of an historical text than a world history testbook from college... I believe what I believe because I have personally experienced a loving and true God in my life, not from generation past... I believe what I believe because all the prophesies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the New Testament... the Bible is a seamless account written by mulitple authors that don't contradict one another and were inspired by God... you ask for proof, read, study, and pray about the Bible and you will receive the proof you need!

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...-130690-3.html
  • Oct 3, 2007, 02:09 PM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    .....
    Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right.

    The difference in my belief is that I am not guaranteed Heaven by default because I believe,but due to the mercy of the Almighty I maybe admitted to Heaven.

    And about another who does not believe in my belief, he/she has until the moment of death and what he/she dies on is what counts and the Almighty knows what is in the hearts of men.
    There are believers who will go to Hell for hypocrisy and other deeds which might negate their good deeds.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 02:26 PM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    Done that question with mountian_man before her is the jist.

    Originally Posted by michealb
    What if the bible was inspired by Hades to lure you away from the worship and the truth of Zeus. Do you not think that a god is not capable of fooling man? How do you know what god inspired man to write the bible? There are so many gods that man has lost count. The point is you don't know for sure it takes faith in something impossible and you believe it because it's what your parents believed and what their parents before them believed. If you were born in a muslim house hold you would be muslim and would be talking about how the koran is the truth. This blind faith is why you can't use the bible as a historical text because once you start allowing religious text as historical fact its a slippery slope.

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    i don't agree at all...you are talking about all god's collectively as if they are one...there is only one true God and that God inspired the Bible...the Bible is so much more of an historical text than a world history testbook from college...I believe what I believe because I have personally experienced a loving and true God in my life, not from generation past...I believe what I believe because all the prophesies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the New Testament...the Bible is a seamless account written by mulitple authors that don't contradict one another and were inspired by God...you ask for proof, read, study, and pray about the Bible and you will recieve the proof you need!

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...-130690-3.html


    Well that saved some typing huh
  • Oct 3, 2007, 02:34 PM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    I don't want to play by my own rules. I am willing to follow the laws of the country I'm in and even willing to follow the reasonable ethics of the country that I'm in. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't do others harm except in self defense. I try not to lie. Here is a big one, I have never wished that anyone be tortured for an eternity for their ideas. I have never told someone that they will be tortured for eternity. I probably am a better person than 90% of the religious folks out there as far as just general laws and ethics. I am a good person not because I fear punishment. I am a good person simply because it is the right thing to do and the more people that are good the better the chance my offspring will have.
    Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right. I on the other hand try to convince you to live this life to it's fullest and longest. If there really is an angry old man in the sky you have a much better chance at picking the wrong religion than the right one since there are thousands of religions and your all convinced that there is only one correct one. It falls under the same reason I don't play the lottery sure it's only a dollar a week and if I win it's big but the chances are so low it's not worth the buck.

    I believe we are all sinners and in need of a saviour! And through God's mercy and grace and Jesus sacrifice those who believe will be saved! I respect Firm for having strong beliefs and know that we have differing beliefs but God is a just and merciful God. I don't wish any torture or punishment on any man because I have been a sinner with no regard for anyone and need mercy as much as anyone erveryday.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 03:48 PM
    nigel5
    "Time is relative, so looking at death from a different perspective, "death" can be seen as a means of time travel,Without the reference frame which is time!
    Therefore when you die whatever happens, (if anything will happen), will happen in an instant. "

    So taking that into consideration...
    "EVERYONE WHO'S DEAD AS FAR BACK AS A MILLION OR A THOUSAND YEARS AGO IS TECHNICALLY IN THE FUTURE AND ALREADY KNOW'S THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION:

    Is there life after death?

    Scary thought... will know it too sooner than later!! :D
  • Oct 3, 2007, 04:57 PM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    Are we to assume by your answer that being educated puts you at a higher thinking or reasoning level than the Creator (God)? ALso based off this we can assume you (more educated people) know better than say people back in biblical times of what they witnessed first hand and/or experienced and recorded?

    You assume a lot in this post. You assume in the existence of a creator (I know you believe in one), and the way your statement is phrased, the person it is directed at, must also believe in a creator. If they don't, you are saying that educated people believe they are at a higher thinking power or reasoning level than something they don't believe in. Are you smarter than the tooth fairy? I know I am! :)

    Additionally, you reference the recorded experiences of individuals of those in biblical times... which means the bible. The only historical evidence which supports the bible is, well, the bible. And there's a lot of controversy over if it is the literal truth or complete metaphor. There's also a lot of controversy on if Jesus even existed. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just making a point here. So your second question, you are asking if educated people believe they know better than what a work of fiction says. Do you know better than what is written in Jurassic Park? I sure do.
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:07 PM
    nigel5
    What about the dead sea scrolls?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:09 PM
    nigel5
    Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What about the dead sea scrolls? Isn't it historical evidence :)
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:11 PM
    nigel5
    Nash Papyrus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nash papyrus with the ten commandments?
  • Oct 3, 2007, 08:51 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deist
    We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.


    Pretty dogmatic statements there.

    So - do you believe in a creator who just started things out and left?




    Grace and peace
  • Oct 4, 2007, 04:29 AM
    deist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Pretty dogmatic statements there.

    So - do you believe in a creator who just started things out and left?




    Grace and peace

    I believe God may be observing things on earth, but It doesn't intervene or interfere.
  • Oct 4, 2007, 06:36 AM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nigel5
    Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What about the dead sea scrolls? Isn't it historical evidence :)

    From your link (emphasis mine):

    "The "Dead Sea Scrolls" comprise roughly 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea) in the West Bank. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include practically the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 AD, and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late Second Temple Judaism."

    They are historical documents in that they document religion and are very old. But they are not historical evidence as far as, "these people were alive, this happened, etc". Key word in there is: Bible.

    Quote:

    Nash papyrus with the ten commandments?
    From a different link (below, emphasis mine):

    "It contains parts of the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20, along with some verses from Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6. So this was not a regular Bible manuscript but a mixed text with a special purpose. It was evidently part of an instructional collection to remind a Jew of his duty to God."

    Papyrus Nash

    No doubt this is a significant historical document in that it is so old. But let's say you have a copy of the ten commandments framed and hanging on your wall at home. Fast forward 2,000 years - what sort of historical evidence is that when it is found? It is significant because it is old, or does it prove something other than someone in that era believed in the bible?

    I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of these documents to your faith, but they don't really point to anything except "people in this era were Jewish/Christian". They don't document "The Great Flood" or the "Rising of Jesus" or "The Last Supper" or any of the important events in the bible which you (collective you) claim actually happened. And before you bring up the shroud of Turin, there is so much controversy over it's authenticity that there is no way we can debate it here and reach a reasonable conclusion.
  • Oct 4, 2007, 07:03 AM
    MoonlitWaves
    Jillian is correct. The discovery of the scrolls does not prove that the happenings written actually took place.
    No matter what scientists or archaeologists find, it will never be undeniable evidenced that God exisits. God wanted us to have free will. He wants us to choose Him. To have faith that He exists without physical undeniable evidenced. If there were undeniable evidenced that God exists then that choice would be eliminated. I mean sure you could still say He doesn't exists, but that would be the same as saying the sky isn't blue on a clear day. Maybe archaeologists are searching for their piece of mind, who knows. But if they are searching to prove God's existence they are wasting their time.
  • Oct 4, 2007, 07:18 AM
    mountain_man
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jillianleab
    You assume a lot in this post. You assume in the existence of a creator (I know you believe in one), and the way your statement is phrased, the person it is directed at, must also believe in a creator. If they don't, you are saying that educated people believe they are at a higher thinking power or reasoning level than something they don't believe in. Are you smarter than the tooth fairy? I know I am! :)

    Additionally, you reference the recorded experiences of individuals of those in biblical times... which means the bible. The only historical evidence which supports the bible is, well, the bible. And there's a lot of controversy over if it is the literal truth or complete metaphor. There's also a lot of controversy on if Jesus even existed. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just making a point here. So your second question, you are asking if educated people believe they know better than what a work of fiction says. Do you know better than what is written in Jurassic Park? I sure do.


    To respond to my post with comparisons like the "tooth fairy" and "Jurasic Park" come on! You are really stretched for debate.
  • Oct 4, 2007, 08:25 AM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mountain_man
    To respond to my post with comparisions like the "tooth fairy" and "Jurasic Park" come on! you are really stretched for debate.

    I'm not trying to make you angry or offend you, I'm trying to make a point (and use a little humor! :rolleyes: ). My intent is to make you think about your post in a different light. To you, god is real, but to an atheist, he is nothing more than the tooth fairy. To you, the bible is the inspired word of god, to an atheist, it is a book of fiction, similar to Jurassic Park. I didn't mean to offend you, only to make you consider what you wrote from a different perspective.
  • Oct 4, 2007, 08:51 AM
    nigel5
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jillianleab
    From your link (emphasis mine):

    "The "Dead Sea Scrolls" comprise roughly 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea) in the West Bank. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include practically the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 AD, and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late Second Temple Judaism."

    They are historical documents in that they document religion and are very old. But they are not historical evidence as far as, "these people were alive, this happened, etc". Key word in there is: Bible.



    From a different link (below, emphasis mine):

    "It contains parts of the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20, along with some verses from Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6. So this was not a regular Bible manuscript but a mixed text with a special purpose. It was evidently part of an instructional collection to remind a Jew of his duty to God."

    Papyrus Nash

    No doubt this is a significant historical document in that it is so old. But let's say you have a copy of the ten commandments framed and hanging on your wall at home. Fast forward 2,000 years - what sort of historical evidence is that when it is found? It is significant because it is old, or does it prove something other than someone in that era believed in the bible?

    I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of these documents to your faith, but they don't really point to anything except "people in this era were Jewish/Christian". They don't document "The Great Flood" or the "Rising of Jesus" or "The Last Supper" or any of the important events in the bible which you (collective you) claim actually happened. And before you bring up the shroud of Turin, there is so much controversy over it's authenticity that there is no way we can debate it here and reach a reasonable conclusion.


    Am afraid I have to agree with your argument... because its well organized and sticks to facts. Good job.

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