Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred

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Fred

Where does Jesus tell us to ask His mother for requests of promises?

Christ taught us to pray... To The Father, just as Christ himself did.. He ensampled His teaching on Mt Olive..

AND.. Power and faith in Christ is shown when we ask anything in Christ name, when we pray...

We are God's children, and Our Father expects us to listen... The fulfillment of righteousness is to proclaim Christ as the begotten Son of God without shame or doubt. Any method that causes us to go else where is wrong, and is does show your doubt in what Christ told us. He is the Way!

Tell me, does your method in doing other then what Christ Himself did, show that you trust in Him? Does it show love, and worthiness to Christ? I think it makes it appear, as if you think His promise to hear you is being neglected.

The child of God who walks in Christ has no shame or doubt.. They are obedent to the Father's Will.

This is off thread...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Change what is written? Nobody has changed what was written. No, more cunning games are played by forces that oppose God. Why change the writing, after all there must be thousands, likely millions, of copies of Scripture. Can you imagine running around the world with pen and eraser scrubbing out words and writing in new ones? But, why rub out written words when you can simply change the meaning of the written word? Better still, make the words subjective, different meaning for different folks.

Too smart for that? Consider this. The Holy Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, its leaders chosen by Christ, Her scriptures inspired by God, universally ministering One faith to 50 or more generations, always teaching the same One, Holy, and Apostolic faith in Christ. Not for a few decades, nor a few centuries, rather for two millennia. Each day, each month, each year, faithfully ministering to the Divine institution of the Mass for two millennia. Proof of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is reveled in both Scripture and Tradition.

Two thousand years, 50 generations, two hundred decades; this spans across most of mankind's history on this little green marble; a length of time nearly impossible for man to grasp. And for all of these millennia we have understood and believed in the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And now, you would suggest that it's a lie. If so then our God is indeed cruel, because it would be His lie. But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn't mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?

Lies? To make a lie of the Catholic Church is to destroy all of Christendom; the devil's work for sure.

JoeT

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Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Tell me how has baptism change? What was written and instructed? I do not single out the Catholic church in error... What I tell you is what is written, hear Christ and follow His way.

John baptized where there was enough water.. (John 3:23)

And in (Acts 8:38) is the testimony of when you can be baptized.

Jesus ensampled the fulfillment of baptism being an act of righteousness .. Christ said suffer it so now... (Matthew 3:15)

Do you understand what suffer it means? The following verse in Corinthians tells us...
1 Corinthians 4:21 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

What did God wants us to do after the birth of a new baby?


What does The Word say about not doing the Will of God?

off thread

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Originally Posted by sndbay

[B]Fred

Where does Jesus tell us to ask His mother for requests of promises?

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Good question. And here is another, where ido we find any example in scripture of a Christian praying to a dead saint?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Tell me how has baptism change? What was written and instructed? I do not single out the Catholic church in error... What I tell you is what is written, hear Christ and follow His way.

John baptized where there was enough water.. (John 3:23)

And in (Acts 8:38) is the testimony of when you can be baptized.

Jesus ensampled the fulfillment of baptism being an act of righteousness .. Christ said suffer it so now... (Matthew 3:15)

Do you understand what suffer it means? The following verse in Corinthians tells us...
1 Corinthians 4:21 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

What did God wants us to do after the birth of a new baby?


What does The Word say about not doing the Will of God?

off thread

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And so how did Baptism get into this? More supposed lies?

Surly, you wouldn't forbid little children from entering the Kingdom of God, would you?

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it. 16 And embracing them and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them." Mark 10:14-16

There's a problem for some with this next verse. It requires 'work'! “DO PENANCE” DO PENANCE; DO WORK, Oh to my chagrin:

Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to that entire are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

AND “THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN”? What promises? Those made by God, the merits of baptism.

Tradition also speaks to baptizing children; some holding it heresy to withhold baptism for a child:
But maybe the lie is in the false accusations? "Christ came to save all who are reborn through Him to God — infants, children, and youths" (infantes et parvulos et pueros). St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22 (circa 2nd century A.D.)

"If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." St. Augustine, On the Soul, Book III

"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ” St. Augustine, Epistle 28

Entrance into the Kingdom of God requires a work, a work of faith, a work having both form and matter, baptism, “No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." St. Ambrose, II De Abraham. c. xi.

So, where's the lie?

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Good question. And here is another, where ido we find any example in scripture of a Christian praying to a dead saint?

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No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

And so how did Baptism get into this? More supposed lies?

Surly, you wouldn't forbid little children from entering the Kingdom of God, would you?

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it. 16 And embracing them and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them." Mark 10:14-16

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The little children from the the beginning of birth are God's. For all souls belong to God. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The little children do their Father's Will, they follow.... Christ ensampled that fact that little children are blessed. God pour water upon the seed of our off springs in blessing. Trust His word..
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

No where in that scripture does it say baptise the little children.. It doesn't because it can be found in (Acts 8:38) when we are able to be baptized.. It is a righteous act of choice in proclaiming your faith in Christ the begotten Son of God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to that entire are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39
AND “THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN”? What promises? Those made by God, the merits of baptism.

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The promise is The Holy Spirit... And yes they too shall receive The Holy Spirit when they make the choice to be baptized. When their proclaim their love and faith in Christ Jesus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Tradition also speaks to baptizing children; some holding it heresy to withhold baptism for a child:

"If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." St. Augustine, On the Soul, Book III

"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ” St. Augustine, Epistle 28

Entrance into the Kingdom of God requires a work, a work of faith, a work having both form and matter, baptism, “No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." St. Ambrose, II De Abraham., c. xi.

So, where's the lie?

JoeT

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The man made rules have it covered in doing things their way... That which you have quoted makes it appear that Christ mother and father did evil..

Scripture was written, and is The Word of God... I trust in His way and do His Will

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The little children from the the beginning of birth are God's. For all souls belong to God. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The little children do their Father's Will, they follow.... Christ ensampled that fact that little children are blessed. God pour water upon the seed of our off springs in blessing. Trust His word..
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

No where in that scripture does it say baptise the little children.. It doesn't because it can be found in (Acts 8:38) when we are able to be baptized.. It is a righteous act of choice in proclaiming your faith in Christ the begotten Son of God.




The promise is The Holy Spirit... And yes they too shall receive The Holy Spirit when they make the choice to be baptized. When their proclaim their love and faith in Christ Jesus.



The man made rules have it covered in doing things their way... That which you have quoted makes it appear that Christ mother and father did evil..

Scripture was written, and is The Word of God... I trust in His way and do His Will

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

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Now you're adding YOUR tradition to the Scripture. As I pointed out, Catholic Tradition is quite different.

What authority supports your position? If you say the Bible, then my response would be that Catholic Tradition wrote Scripture. The authority that supports my position is the Magisterium of the Church.


JoeT

Joe,
And I support it also.
I support The Church's traditional teaching rather than that of man outside of the
Magisterium.
Fred

What is the Magisterium?

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Now you're adding YOUR tradition to the Scripture. As I pointed out, Catholic Tradition is quite different.

What authority supports your position? If you say the Bible, then my response would be that Catholic Tradition wrote Scripture. The authority that supports my position is the Magisterium of the Church.


JoeT

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Where Joe? Where have I listed a tradition other then what is written in scripture?

Quote what you feel is my tradition?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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Fred,

The context of what I am speak is scripture.. The Word.. The flesh that was Christ.. His way, His ensample of all that was written.

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


The Truth that holds fast to Christ and His way...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium

JoeT

sndbay,
SO does the Magisterium.
By the way, I think Joe was referring to the Protestant tradition of sola scriptora which is NOT a biblical teaching.
Quit the contrary for the bible speaks of teaching or preaching and holding fast to the traditions taught by the Apostles.
Some of those traditions are not mentioned in the bible but were taught by the early apostles and we have them preserved in ancient documents.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
Thanks much for that.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
SO does the Magisterium.
By the way, I think Joe was referring to the Protestant tradition of sola scriptora which is NOT a biblical teaching.
Quit the contrary for the bible speaks of teaching or preaching and holding fast to the traditions taught by the Apostles.
Some of those traditions are not mentioned in the bible but were taught by the early apostles and we have them preserved in ancient documents.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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You're right Fred, I was referring to the tradition of sola scriptura. But added to that, I don't know about the Magisterium but I do know that Acts 8:38 refers to a eunuch, not little children.

Eunuch: a castrated man, esp. one formerly employed by Oriental rulers as a harem guard or palace official.

I've always understood that Scripture interpretation should always be disciplined, rightly aligned with the Magisterium of the Church, One with Chirst.


JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

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Quote right. I have asked a similar question to the one raised by Fred to those who believing in praying to the dead, and have asked for any place in scripture where we find and endorsement of prayer to dead saints - and to date not one has come forward with a single example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
And I support it also.
I support The Church's traditional teaching rather than that of man outside of the
Magisterium.
Fred

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This is why we so often find ourselves at odds. It is because you have your denomination's magisterium as your standard of truth. Mine is the Bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

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No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

If we don't pray for the dead then we'll need to assign these verses to obscurity. Onesiphorus is dead, Paul tells us of his prayers for him. Paul asks the Lord to have mercy on Onesiphorus.

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.(2Tim1:16-18)

Salute Prisca and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus remained at Corinth. And Trophimus I left sick at Miletus. Make haste to come before winter. Eubulus and Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brethren, salute thee. The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. (2Tim4: 19-22)

Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.

JoeT

And then we also find that we are not only permitted to pray for the dead but that it’s a holy thing to do so: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)

Oh, what a HOLY WAY!

JoeT