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Originally Posted by Tj3

I'd suggest that you buy a new Bible. The one that you are using appears to be missing pages.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

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Tom:

You are forcing your interpretation into the verses. To be correct I would suggest the following understanding of Eph 2:8-10:


For by grace you are saved through faith:

Our salvation is caused by God’s grace which works though faith. God works in this manner so as to keep our free-will intact. We choose to cooperate with God’s will by performing his work; our will partners with God’s will. And, unless we are called through faith how then would we believe? Without hearing there can be no work in faith whatsoever (Cf. Rom 10:14).

Our faith in God isn’t the ‘struck by lightning’ type of knowledge. Catholics hold ‘faith’ in God to be those truths revealed by God in Scripture and in the Tradition of the Church (objective faith). Faith can also be those things we hold true that are beyond our understanding, but within the natural light of reason (subjective faith). This latter type of faith requires a supernatural strengthening of natural light. "Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (What is faith but belief without seeing?). In either event intellectual reasoning is an element of faith. And it through right reasoning that we cooperate with God’s will.


and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

We cannot conjure up this faith in God. If we could summon such faith in and of ourselves, God’s will would become subjective to the will of man. We know this is not the case. The faith we have is a grace or gift of God whereby his will reins supreme. St. Chrysostom is emphatic that faith alone is error. “Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all.”


Not of works, that no man may glory.

If the work is done without the gift of faith, then we need only follow Divine Law. The gift of God manifests justifying works and therefore man cannot boast of his own salvatic works. “And then, lest when you hear that the whole work is accomplished not of works but by faith, you should become idle, observe how he continues”

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Christ has prepared for us virtuous works, good works. “This is the hope of our calling; for for good works he says. Otherwise it would profit us nothing.” (St. Chrysostom, Homily 4)


In my opinion there must be a synergism between God and man when sanctifying graces are conferred; the free human will and the will of God (the Holy Spirit) work together to bring about spiritual regeneration or salvation. [cf. Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon IV]

It would seem to me that any deviation that would deny faith and works would also deny the two natures of Christ, man and God. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God’s mercy), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by the Protestant faith. (cf Luke 8:21) Christ not only lived the old covenant, he was marked with a work-faith synergy that “worked” internally and externally. The word of God was grafted into his being as a Jew. Was not the Christ’s crucifixion a “work” in the spirit of Yom Kippur, atonement for our sins? The forgiveness of sins was a unique concept hitherto unknown to the Jewish faith. Was it not Christ who lived the Jewish High Holydays of the Sukkuot (Tabernacles)? Was it not a “work” when Jesus transfigured before Peter, John and James. Was the procession to the temple where the people waived palms and shouted “Hosanna” a “work”? Being both the priest offering the sacrifice while simultaneously being the sacrifice. Christ’s actions (work) transformed both heaven and earth; the old covenant did not have forgiveness of sin (Cf Lev. 17:11, Rom 3:25 and Heb. 8:7). During Rosh Hashanah the practice of Tahilikh (the casting off sins) was observed. The prophecy tells of God rising up a horn of salvation “to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant” (a work). Couldn’t we even say that Christ’s birth in late December a “work” found in the Jewish Hanukah – the lighting of the menorah? Christ even waits till the feast of Hanukah to proclaim, “The Father and I are one.” (the light of the world). Jesus lived his faith and the traditions of his faith like no other man; obedient to the point of sweating blood, to the point of death.

When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally; the synergy of faith and work. He didn’t simply listen to God, he was a “doer” of God’s words. The same advice James gives us, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” James 1:21-24. An “ingrafted word” being a synergy of faith and work.

JoeT

To make your life a little bit easier:

#13: I show that you misread Eph.2.8-9.
#20: I point out your misunderstanding regarding the faith/law vs. faith/works distinction. I also provide you references to the other thread ("How will you be saved...") where I deal with this.
#27: I give you a deductively valid argument, in premise and conclusion form, for the Catholic-Orthodox view.
#48: I go through James 2, showing that you have misunderstood it (I even give you the Greek).
#55: I respond to your erroneous claim re: James 2, explaining the Greek terminology to you.

Most of the rest of my posts have been taken up with trying to help you out with some basic distinctions (e.g. necessary vs. sufficient condition) and terminology (e.g. what a strawman is). Now although you've posted responses telling me that you disagree with me, you haven't posted rigorous arguments or close textual readings which demonstrate, in a step-by-step way, where I've fallen into error. Instead, you've become increasingly irascible and churlish, and your posts have become increasingly inarticulate. You need to slow down, patiently put your thoughts together, and craft them into something that can persuade someone who isn't already you.

Joe,

Now that was really nicely done. Thanks a lot for that. I'm definitely going to spend some time reading and re-reading it.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

It would seem to me that any deviation that would deny faith and works would also deny the two natures of Christ, man and God.

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True Joe, and Anyone not baptized would not hold the wisdom given by the Holy Spirit. Christ was baptized with the Holy Spirit and walked in Him as Lord. The Spirit guides us in newness of life, in righteousness. (Dead in Christ, and able to raise from death to life)

I Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally; the synergy of faith and work. He didn't simply listen to God, he was a “doer” of God's words. The same advice James gives us, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” James 1:21-24. An “ingrafted word” being a synergy of faith and work.

JoeT

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The Word of Spiritual Truth confirms it:

James 2:20-26 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The beginning of wisdom is fear in God.. Doing the Will of God on earth as in heaven as a child of God. (Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

John 6:27-31
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
NKJV

We are to believe in God, and the fact that we believe is a work of God.

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Believing is something we do. The disciples knew that. And they asked, "what shall we DO...?

And Jesus answered, this is what you do, "You believe in Him"

What does this believing in Him do for us?

"we may work the works of God."

That is faith and works. Without belief, you may not work the works of God.

This is echoed in Scripture elsewhere:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If you believe, you will be baptized and do the works of God.
But if you do not believe, why would you be baptized? And why would you want to work the works of God?

This is echoed in the epistles:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

If you have faith, you will diligently seek Him in well doing.

James 2 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

So, faith which is not accompanied by works, is not faith and does not merit salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Fred,

Don't respond to his last post. He's just trying to get the thread closed. You have nothing to prove on this score, as Joe and I have also shown.

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Akoue,

If anyone is trying to get the thread close it is you by not dealing with the issues at hand.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Paul is NOT a heretic. Period.

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Agreed.

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Believing a heretic theology on a particular subject does not make a person a heretic in my mind.

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Ah, so Paul is not a heretic, he just taught a heretical doctrine according to you.

I just do not understand why the faith/works topic is so complicated that it turns into a heated discussion! It seems so simple as 1+1=2

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Tom:
You are forcing your interpretation into the verses. To be correct I would suggest the following understanding of Eph 2:8-10:


For by grace you are saved through faith:

Our salvation is caused by God’s grace which works though faith.

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Okay - let's stop here fopr a moment to make sure that we are talking about the same things. Grace is unmerited favour. God gives us something that we did not earn or in any way deserve. It is an unfair exchange, essentially - we gave nothing and He gives all. That is important for us to understand as we read this passgae.

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God works in this manner so as to keep our free-will intact. We choose to cooperate with God’s will by performing his work; our will partners with God’s will. And, unless we are called through faith how then would we believe? Without hearing there can be no work in faith whatsoever (Cf. Rom 10:14).

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How is the calling done? Scripture says that we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. Again, not our doing, not our work but His. Our part in it is solely to receive the gift of the sacrifice on the cross that He freely offers.

Where Calvinists and Arminians get mixed up on this (and I don't know if you are struggling with this also or not) is that they see this as a occurring serially on a timeline. Thus, depending upon what you see happening first, one will say that it is entirely through our free will that it happens, the other says that we have no freewill and we are either or the elect or we are not. The truth is that God is not in our timeline so, while we know that we both have freewill (and that is a necessary part of us accepting the free gift) and we know that the Holy Spirit draws whom He wills, these two are mixed in a way that we, being captive to a universe restricted by time and space cannot fully comprehend.

But the one factor which has not and does not enter the equation is our work.

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Our faith in God isn’t the ‘struck by lightning’ type of knowledge. Catholics hold ‘faith’ in God to be those truths revealed by God in Scripture and in the Tradition of the Church (objective faith).

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Again, my doctrine comes from scripture, not your denominational beliefs. Where you use this as an argument in support of your position, I retain the right to simply ignore it. You know that already from the past.

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and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

We cannot conjure up this faith in God. If we could summon such faith in and of ourselves, God’s will would become subjective to the will of man.

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I already said that God draws us, and though one of your friends in your denomination disagreed, I already pointed out that it is God who gives us faith. That again does not come from us.

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Not of works, that no man may glory.

If the work is done without the gift of faith, then we need only follow Divine Law.

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Okay let's stop there. If we already have faith in God, then works follow faith. Notice that prior to this, man added nothing. Then comes faith in Christ, and the works follow. And as shown below, a man who is unsaved cannot please God with his works, therefore the works have no effect until after he is saved.

Rom 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
NKJV

All that came before salvation therefore is not associated with works, but is solely the work of God.

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For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Christ has prepared for us virtuous works, good works.

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Right, and scripture is clear that the works of the unsaved do not please God, but we have been prepared for Good works in Jesus.

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It would seem to me that any deviation that would deny faith and works would also deny the two natures of Christ, man and God.

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Strawman argument again. You notably left out the word salvation here. What we are discussing is whether Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient or if man's works are necessary to make up for the deficiency of what Christ failed to bring to the table in completion and perfection.

I say, in concert with scripture, that the works of man cannot merit our salvation, but are an evidence of the change in a man after He is saved.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

To make your life a little bit easier:

#13: I show that you misread Eph.2.8-9.
#20: I point out your misunderstanding regarding the faith/law vs. faith/works distinction. I also provide you references to the other thread ("How will you be saved...") where I deal with this.
#27: I give you a deductively valid argument, in premise and conclusion form, for the Catholic-Orthodox view.
#48: I go through James 2, showing that you have misunderstood it (I even give you the Greek).
#55: I respond to your erroneous claim re: James 2, explaining the Greek terminology to you.

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Sigh - and I have refuted each of your arguments. I could list these here too, but isn't posting lists of what messages you posted in rather than actual responses getting a bit childish.

Just having posted your arguments does not make them right, especially when your subsequent response can be summarized as "I'm right and you're wrong". If you are able to respond to what I have posted, then do so.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Believing is something we do. The disciples knew that. And they asked, "what shall we DO...?

And Jesus answered, this is what you do, "You believe in Him"
What does this believing in Him do for us?
"we may work the works of God."

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I believe in recycling also, but I already responded to this argument. Just repeating it does not make it true.

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This is echoed in Scripture elsewhere:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If you believe, you will be baptized and do the works of God.
But if you do not believe, why would you be baptized? And why would you want to work the works of God?

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Baptism follows salvation also. Without gettuing into the whole argument again, we have an example in Acts 10 where there were those who received the Holy Spirit and were saved before being baptized:

Acts 10:47
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

De Marie quote:

If you believe, you will be baptized and do the works of God.
But if you do not believe, why would you be baptized? And why would you want to work the works of God?

A. Many people get baptized because it is the tradition of the church and many follow the tradition of the church. They think that all they have to do is say they believe there is a creator and
Follow the traditions.

B. Many people are baptized as babies by parents I described above. Why do they bother baptizing their babies? Tradition.

C. Are professing Christians (A+B) saved by these works?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

De Marie quote:

If you believe, you will be baptized and do the works of God.
But if you do not believe, why would you be baptized? And why would you want to work the works of God?

A. Many people get baptized because it is the tradition of the church and many follow the tradition of the church. They think that all they have to do is say they believe there is a creator and
follow the traditions.

B. Many people are baptized as babies by parents I described above. Why do they bother baptizing their babies? Tradition.

C. Are professing Christians (A+B) saved by these works?

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Tj has made the claim that faith must "come first", and you seem to endorse that here. I have no problem with this claim (my faith should motivate me to do good works) so long as we agree that the fact that faith comes first *temporally* doesn't entail that works aren't also necessary. Think of it like this: Both respiration and nutrition are necessary conditions for living. I have to both breath and eat if I'm to survive. But breathing has temporal priority inasmuch as, from the moment of birth, I breathe before I eat. The fact that respiration "comes first" doesn't imply that nutrition isn't also a necessary condition for me to survive. This is a somewhat rough analogy to the point I've been making, I know, but I thought it might help put a slightly different face on it.

You're right to point out that there are people who are baptized and who, later in life, lack faith. I don't think that anybody here is saying that just being initiated into a tradition is itself sufficient for salvation. I certainly don't mean to endorse that view.

D

That is basically what I am saying and I haven't read all the replies here to see what Tj3 is saying you are saying that he doesn't agree with so I don't think I am following too well.
I agree
Like turning the ignition key in the car you then have to take it out of park or where are you going to get.
Or if you tell your husband you love him you don't then tell him get his own dinner, wash his own clothes, etc... You love him so you want to make his dinner and take care of his things for him where you are able to.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Baptism follows salvation also. Without gettuing into the whole argument again, we have an example in Acts 10 where there were those who received the Holy Spirit and were saved before being baptized:

Acts 10:47
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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Titus 3.5: "he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy spirit"
Jn.3.5: "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"
Acts 10.47-49: Notice that it doesn't say here that Cornelius and the others were *saved* without baptism. It says that they should be baptized right away even though they were gentiles. This certainly suggests that Peter took baptism to be essential (otherwise, why did he think it important to baptize them at all?).

There's nothing to suggest that baptism "follows" salvation.

"How is the calling done? Scripture says that we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. Again, not our doing, not our work but His."

Right. No grace, no nothing--no faith, no works, no salvation. As I've been saying all along, we need God's grace in order for anything to be possible.

"Then comes faith in Christ, and the works follow."

And without those works we cannot be saved.

"Rom 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
NKJV"

Okay. As I keep saying, our works aren't governed or dictated by the Law of the Pentateuch. (Paul uses the word "law" to talk about Moses's Law.) But this is very different from the claim you mean to advance, to wit, that works aren't necessary for salvation. It's just that the works aren't governed by the Mosaic Law.

"Strawman argument again. You notably left out the word salvation here."

It's not a strawman. Joe is not ascribing to *you* something you haven't said. He's rather offering an additiional set of considerations, over and above points that had already been made, which he thinks suggest that one of the views under consideration is correct and the other mistaken. This is a perfectly reasonable and fair thing to do. (It would have been unfair had he attributed it to you and then attacked it. But he didn't do that: He is himself endorsing it.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I believe in recycling also, but I already responded to this argument. Just repeating it does not make it true.



Baptism follows salvation also. Without gettuing into the whole argument again, we have an example in Acts 10 where there were those who received the Holy Spirit and were saved before being baptized:

Acts 10:47
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

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No is the answer...Why because Peter when on to say no and commanded them to be baptized.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

John the Baptist taught that he baptized with water, but Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Even when John the Baptist question Christ being baptized, Christ told John why. That it would be toward the fullfillment of both what was, and did come in Christ "US"
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Titus 3.5: "he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy spirit"
Jn.3.5: "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"
Acts 10.47-49: Notice that it doesn't say here that Cornelius and the others were *saved* without baptism. It says that they should be baptized right away even though they were gentiles. This certainly suggests that Peter took baptism to be essential (otherwise, why did he think it important to baptize them at all?).

There's nothing to suggest that baptism "follows" salvation.

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So you believe that people have the Holy Spirit who are not saved? Where do you find that in scripture?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you believe that people have the Holy Spirit who are not saved? Where do you find that in scripture?

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Are you saying that you have to be baptized to be saved and have the Holy Spirit?

I am lost on who believes what here.

What about the thief on the cross with Jesus?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

"How is the calling done? Scripture says that we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. Again, not our doing, not our work but His."

Right. No grace, no nothing--no faith, no works, no salvation. As I've been saying all along, we need God's grace in order for anything to be possible.

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And grace is unmerited favour (nothing we have done - no works!).

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"Then comes faith in Christ, and the works follow."

And without those works we cannot be saved.

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You keep saying this but we are still waiting to see anything in scripture which says that. Your word is not enough for me.

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"Rom 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
NKJV"

Okay. As I keep saying, our works aren't governed or dictated by the Law of the Pentateuch. (Paul uses the word "law" to talk about Moses's Law.) But this is very different from the claim you mean to advance, to wit, that works aren't necessary for salvation. It's just that the works aren't governed by the Mosaic Law.

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The "law" is not just the Mosaic law, but refers to anyone who places themselves under a works gospel. The law of Moses was a constant theme in the NT because the context of where it took place was the land of Israel. But the principle extends beyond just the Mosaic law, for example:

Rom 2:14-16
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

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"Strawman argument again. You notably left out the word salvation here."

It's not a strawman. Joe is not ascribing to *you* something you haven't said.

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He is. No one denied that both faith and works are important. It si whether works are required for salvation. But I note that you go after semantics rather than deal with the issue.