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Originally Posted by needinfo08

Obviously, I don't know everything, but I think what I have presented is valid. The Scriptures say, YHWH will not be mocked and you reap what you sow. If you continue to fornicate, worship idols, blaspheme, lie, etc. the gates to the Kingdom will be closed to you. You can bank on that. .

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There is scripture that tells us not to frustrate over the law, and I believe Peter was shown this in Acts when the Gentiles were made clean, and Peter was not to make unclean what God had made clean. I realize that confusion was brought from man on this event, yet if you find the evident identity in the 3 times food was dropped, knowing that 3 does prove intervention from God whenever it is spoken in scripture. It was that evident identity that Peter was to view in comparing His food laws verses the Gentiles. Any confusion on this is not surprising of satan's work. Note refer: (Acts 10:28)

Those who find within their heart to do the Will of God, will look to understand and follow. And I believe Christ has given us the right to repent, not the right to sin. Christ did the Will of His Father that sent Him.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

My heart and mind leads me in awareness to what was created by God, and what then was purposed by God. Eating pork is something I do not do because the swine was created to eat the waste of the land. And was purposed to have a flesh that would not sweat and cure. Thus it leave waste within, and when eaten is not healthy. None of this causes me to think it is sinful, yet it is unhealthy food.

Please be aware that the flesh body of all generations do sin, and as noted before the price was paid for all sin by Christ. However God gaves us the lamp of the law to give light to our paths. Christ walked in the light, and we should walk in His Light.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,

That is not what he said, but even that is a mis-reading of what the passage says in context:

The whole chapter is about salvation. For example:

Heb 10:11-18
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
NKJV

So if a person receives the sacrifice on the cross, there is no longer an offering for sin. This is telling us that the work on the cross was complete - nothing that we do can add to it, nor is there anything that we need to do in addition to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Now to the passage in question:

Heb 10:26-30
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

One of the problems in reading scripture in English is to miss the context from the original Greek. The "sin" refers to missing the mark, and sins comes in many forms including rejecting the salvation which you received. That is the context - those who have been saved, but who now willfully reject their salvation and turn their back on the sacrifice on the cross. Look at this which helps explain the context:

Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 "For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

Paul is speaking of the contrast of those who leave their faith in Christ verses those who retain their confidence in the cross.

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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My post mentioned that I believe Christ has given us the right to repent, not the right to sin. Anyone who follows Christ, and believes in the word, must hold stedfast in effort to live a good life. (righteously = in good standing with God)

The parable of the oil for the lamp, the wise and foolish is a good example. Someone is foolish not to buy into what Christ has to offer, to allow God's glory to shine in them.

Needinfo08 is following his heart of love in doing the Will of God, and I find no reason for him or anyone to frustrate over the law when their heart of love is given to Christ.

Remember the scripture that tells us the first will be last and the last will be first. The word is saying no one is better then another. We all fall short to sin of the flesh, there is no way to eliminate this. But the mind and heart can find forgiveness and remain bright unto the glory of Christ. The Bread of Life

WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.. And perhaps is a double minded person, who obviously has not enough oil. The foolish need God to trim their flax. God does promise in experiences of life, we reap what we sow.

Judgement is in the hands of Christ..

To the idea of willfully sinning, I just point out that King David willfully sinned in two respects and yet in the end, God still saved him. And what were those sins: adultery and murder. David was called a man after God's own heart. God did say that David was faithful in all his house, except with Bathsheba. God did not overlook the fact that David sinned but in the end, God did not hold that sin against him as it related to eternal life.

The point of confusion I think with needinfo's earlier comments is whether someone who willfully sins can be saved. My feeling is that a willful sin in of itself is not necessarily a disqualifying factor in terms of whether God will be merciful to me. I think a person's willful sin is not necessarily indicative of that person's real spiritual nature. If we say that a person who commits a willful sin is disqualified from eternal life, we are right in the sense that the law condemns every man and woman for sin and therefore we are all condemned. But God's mercy is extended to those who desire it because if God is not merciful to us, we will all be destroyed. Paul says that “to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.” The bottom line is there are two types of people: those who desire to do the will of God (but sometimes fail in this regard) and those who do not desire to do the will of God. Those who persevere in doing good will be given eternal life and those who do not obey the truth, will be condemned.

By needinfo's theology, David should have been condemned. But we know that he was not. Why, though? Because what marks a believer from an unbeliever is not necessarily the absence of sin in our lives, it is when we sin and we are confronted with the reality of what we have done, we repent and we desire God's mercy. What I found to be almost laughable, needinfo08, is that you seem to have a very short-sighted view of what sin really is. You mentioned that you may have sinned and your recollection of past sins seems very foggy. You cited a time where the Spirit led you to fast and you wanted to throw in the towel on day 5, but you pushed through it. My friend, that is just dripping with self-righteousness. It's as if you are saying "God forgive me but I am getting really hungry"…the idea that in your suffering for God you had a hard time with fasting is just so totally devoid of any real sense of how morally unworthy you really are…and how morally unworthy we all are. The fact is, by nature we are sinners and if you truly think that you have transcended your own nature and no longer sin, you are already deceived. The promise of the gospel is that one day we will be changed…we will be made like Jesus Christ in both nature and character. This is why we are called to persevere in doing good…because if we are of the sort that takes this admonition seriously, then we find that as we pursue the will of God, we learn that God has changed our hearts and has chosen us for eternal life.

Jake,

I don't know one person who hasn't willfully sinned after they were saved. I know plenty that don't do it much because they are changing from Glory to glory. But because of this old nature we have... it is going to happen. I agree with you.

Need,

what do you do with the BROTHER in 1corinthians 5 who was living in sin with his step-mother? ( that is really gross fyi). The apostle Paul never said he was not saved any longer. He said to turn him over to satan.. in other words.. if he won't repent.. let satan have at him for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be saved. You know I have been knee deep into sin. I was addicted to prescription pain killers... WILLFULLY. I never lost my salvation but I can tell you... when Satan was through with me.. I was all too willing to crawl back to the Father. During my addiction I still had a personal relationship with Jesus, it was strained but he was there... the WHOLE way.

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Originally Posted by jakester

To the idea of willfully sinning, I just point out that King David willfully sinned in two respects and yet in the end, God still saved him. And what were those sins: adultery and murder. David was called a man after God's own heart. God did say that David was faithful in all his house, except with Bathsheba. God did not overlook the fact that David sinned but in the end, God did not hold that sin against him as it related to eternal life.
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True, King David did sin, and was foolish in pride. God gave David the chioce of one out of three things ( I Chronicles 21:10 ) for punishment of his foolishness. Those 3 options were written in ( 1 Chronicles 21:12) Pestilence fell on Israel and seventy thousand men died. Before the end of this punishment God took pitty on Jerusalem, and stopped it.

Note that we reap what we sow... But this was a time before Christ brought forgiveness.

The judgement of man's heart is in the hands of Christ today. Whether one believes in Christ, and can (Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cr 6:16-17 )

Christ said repent for sins...

Hebrews 4-5-6 will help anyone to find wisdom for the question of willfully sinning. But another question comes to mind, whether it was actually they fall away from faith and belief in Christ?

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

Who can judge the heart of man, can one judge Judas?

Acts 1:16-18 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

OK, Sndbay, are you saying that you do not sin willfully either? Is that your theology as well, in other words? Because I take it that you are defending needinfo's position.

With respect to judging, I'm not judging anyone's heart and I'm not certain why you keep making that point. The issue isn't one's heart as you keep insisting, it's really how we understand by what means or how a person can be a child God if he or she sins willfully... that's been the discussion, not whether I can tell whether someone is a believer or not.

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Originally Posted by jakester

ok, Sndbay, are you saying that you do not sin willfully either? Is that your theology as well, in other words? Because I take it that you are defending needinfo's position.
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My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name. Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES

Do you believe in Christ's power and authority. Do you believe Christ can help and protect you?

I do not frustrated the law, I do what is within my heart. The scripture tells us to give thought to what we say and do before hand. I talk with God throughout the day, because He is a reality to my heart and mind. The commandments are written within my heart and mind. I willfully try not to sin...

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

sndbay, I really don't get you, man... you are an odd bird... borderline, bizarre, I think.

Perhaps if I met you and got to know you I would think differently but the way you express your arguments and talk through some of this stuff is just really out there, man. I don't have anything against you, though... you don't seem to be antagonistic or mean spirited but you are definitely strange... but I love you, bro.

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Originally Posted by jakester

sndbay, I really don't get you, man...you are an odd bird...borderline, bizarre, I think.

Perhaps if I met you and got to know you I would think differently but the way you express your arguments and talk through some of this stuff is just really out there, man. I don't have anything against you, though...you don't seem to be antagonistic or mean spirited but you are definitely strange...but I love you, bro.

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Jakester,

I have been saying this too. I don't get snd. Too weird. This may sound mean but it is like snb is floating on some spirtual cloud that makes NO SENSE. I have asked time and time again that snd respond without all the spiritual stuff because I don't understand it. For me the replies seems like snd thinks she or he is more spirtual. In reality, it is like you say" BIZARRE". I don't mean to be unkind either but... I calls them like I sees them.

(I was actually starting to think I wasn't smart enough to keep up... ME! LOL whew glad I'm not the only one that has a problem) :)

Yeah, I suspected that others felt the same way... I think I've read a few other threads where snd was going on one of his rants about something and another member was like "woah, earth to sndbay!"

Sometimes he says things that seem to have no connection at all to what is being said in the thread and that's frustrating because it's good to hear other people's arguments but if it's another "language", it's really hard to understand.

Well, sndbay, I guess the verdict is in...

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Originally Posted by jakester

Yeah, I suspected that others felt the same way...I think I've read a few other threads where snd was going on one of his rants about something and another member was like "woah, earth to sndbay!"

Sometimes he says things that seem to have no connection at all to what is being said in the thread and that's frustrating because it's good to hear other people's arguments but if it's another "language", it's really hard to understand.

Well, sndbay, I guess the verdict is in...

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I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

Perhaps I should have said more accurately...
Willfully sinning continually without true repentance is a NO NO to salvation!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

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Yeah, TJ, you are right... we don't want to throw sndbay under the bus. I agree with you; there have been some occasions where he has said some really profound stuff. Thanks for your thoughts.

jakester,
I'm one who does not want to through anyone under the bus.
I hope all can be saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

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Tj3,

Hmmm? Well that is because you haven't had any serious conversation with SND. Reading your posts and your homepage I got to say... I don't think you agree with SND much at all. SND has some ideas that I think are cleary wrong and snd put himself under the law. The only thing so far that I have agreed with him about is that Jesus is GOD and he came to redeem us. Everything else we disagee about. I'm not even sure SND would own me as saved because I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. ( however, I was baptized it just HAD NOTHING to do with me getting to heaven) Anyway, there are plenty of Christians who mix law with grace. Personally I find it harder to converse with THEM than I do an atheist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual though.

Sorry snd. I am not bashing you... I told you we'd meet one day in agreement at the marriage supper of the lamb! :)

Sorry I am clearly off topic... :(

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tj3,
hmmm? well that is because you haven't had any serious conversation with SND. Reading your posts and your homepage i gotta say.....i don't think you agree with SND much at all. SND has some ideas that I think are cleary wrong and snd put himself under the law. The only thing so far that I have agreed with him about is that Jesus is GOD and he came to redeem us. Everything else we disagee about. I'm not even sure SND would own me as saved because I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. ( however, I was baptized it just HAD NOTHING to do with me getting to heaven) Anyway, there are plenty of Christians who mix law with grace. personally i find it harder to converse with THEM than i do an atheist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual though.

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I have had a few rounds with, and yes some where we clearly were on opposite sides. Many other cases, It was simply impossible to discuss because he was so unclear about what he was saying, but some things that he said might have created some good discussions (not necessarily always agreement) if we could have discussed.

But you may be right - maybe I have not discussed thing enough with him to more fully understand his overall theology.

There is reason for the way I speak that is different from what some find normal. It is in th meaning of a greek word called itityam. I am not sure I spelled that correctly. The meaning for this greek way of speaking, is to state a wise saying within the structure or quote of a statement being communicated. This is somewhat near the idea of symbolism in the revelation of suggesting truth by an artictic intervention.. The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.These are spoken in reverse direction at times.
I do not try to speak this way, but find it is a natural way for discussion in scriptures. If I can offer an example, it would be as a parable in saying [a cloud of birds]. When used in this form of speech, the meaning is a large group of birds.

In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 ect..)

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth. If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe.

I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There is reason for the way I speak that is different from what some find normal. It is in th meaning of a greek word called itityam. I am not sure I spelled that correctly. The meaning for this greek way of speaking, is to state a wise saying within the structure or quote of a statement being communicated. This is somewhat near the idea of symbolism in the revelation of suggesting truth by an artictic intervention.. The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.These are spoken in reverse direction at times.
I do not try to speak this way, but find it is a natural way for discussion in scriptures. If I can offer an example, it would be as a parable in saying [a cloud of birds]. When used in this form of speech, the meaning is a large group of birds.

In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 ect..)

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth. If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe.

I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

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OH NO YOU DIDN't... you didn't just call your fellow brothers and sisters SWINE!
When I would read you posts and your responses to me... there was an air of arrogance in them. But I told myself that I just didn't understand you. Well, there is no longer an AIR... it is arrogant. We as brothers and sisters in Christ are telling YOU that you are not conveying your message. What good does it do for you to come in here and type something in Japanese? WE don't UNDERSTAND THAT. I know you think you are "wise" and have been given this great gift but I got to tell you... you aren't reaching many with it. Most people are left scratching their head.

I know you believe in all you wrote. Good for you but IF I say you failed in the truth and doctrine department... I am talking about YOU failing not my Lord and Savior. I get the impression that you think your little parables or itityam or whatever is right up there with the WORD OF GOD. How can I put this poetically so that you might understand?. IT AIN'T EVEN CLOSE.

You are casting STUFF all right.. I wouldn't call it pearls though.


I re -read this and what I said seemed harsh. I got ticked... real ticked at the swine thing. Jesus said that and he was talking about giving REAL truths to unbelievers that just made fun of it. We are believers SND. I resented it being used as if we are somehow beneath you.