Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

Forget it, I'll put a new post in main. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Nope. Jesus was only sacrificed once.

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Right.

Quote:

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But He continues the same sacrifice in heaven.

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Not on in scripture, and even if it were true, your denomination is not heaven.

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering
NKJV

Do you know what "one sacrifice" means? Do you know what "forever" means?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The Bible says, don't lean on your own understanding

---

So why does the Roman Chruch say to lean on the understanding of men?

Quote:

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and obey the Church and calls the Church the Pillar of Truth.

---

Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination. As for the "pillar of truth".

1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.

No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Peter didn't. Jesus did.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

---

Why do Roman Catholics leave out the context of this verse to make it appear to say something that it doesn't?

Matt 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

So why does the Roman Chruch say to lean on the understanding of men?

---

Because God loves men and established many to be our leaders in the Spirit:

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,...17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Question: Who taught you the alphabet? Who taught you to count? Was it men? Or was it a spirit or something?

Quote:

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Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination.

---

We are told to obey the Church.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Quote:

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As for the "pillar of truth".

1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

---

Those who overcome are those who persevere to the end.

Note that the Pillar of truth is here and now. St. Paul is going to teach them how to behave in it.

But those who overcome will be appointed pillars at the resurrection.

Quote:

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1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

---

The very word, overcomes, entails perseverance to the end.

Quote:

---

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

---

It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.

And you are taking this verse from 1 John generalizing very broadly from this one verse of 1 John.

First of all, it is written to a select group of young men whom St. John knows have overcome the evil one.

Second, he still admonishes them to:
15 Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.

Why would he do so unless they could fall?

29 If you know, that he is just, know ye, that every one also, who doth justice, is born of him.

Notice how he says "if" you know him at the end. And right before he warns them to "abide in him". That is a direct reference to his Gospel, chapter 15:

27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.

John 15 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

Quote:

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1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

---

That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.

Quote:

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The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.

No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

---

Therefore, the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ since it has all those earmarks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Why do Roman Catholics leave out the context of this verse to make it appear to say something that it doesn't?

Matt 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV

---

Doesn't change anything. If anything, it confirms the Catholic position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Doesn't change anything. If anything, it confirms the Catholic position.

---

Only if you believe their private interpretation and mis-translation. I prefer what the Bible says.

Your choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Only if you believe their private interpretation and mis-translation. I prefer what the Bible says.

Your choice.

---

My choice is the Catholic interpretation. I believe yours is the mistranslation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Because God loves men and established many to be our leaders in the Spirit:

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So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).

Quote:

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We are told to obey the Church.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

---

This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.

Quote:

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It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.

---

But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.

Quote:

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Why would he do so unless they could fall?

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Man can reject their salvation.

Quote:

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That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.

---

Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

My choice is the Catholic interpretation. I believe yours is the mistranslation.

---

You chose the private interpretation of man.

I stick with what the text says in the original language.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).


This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.

But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.

Man can reject their salvation.

Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

---

Ran out of greenies :D

Exactly what I have been saying. Own interpretation of man!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

i understand the meaning of baptism. but, as in this scripture, there's no qualification for baptism, in order to receive the gift of the holy spirit from the father. i totally agree with you about the holy spirit making us aware of sin and changing us from the inside out. when jesus said he would lead us into all truth, then what is untrue in us is made evident, and to be ejected from our spirit and lifestyle. that, peter, and i say this is all love and respect, is what is the true baptism, because it does purify us from that which does not belong in us.

Mar 1:8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit. ASV

i am not saying in any way that people cannot be baptized with water. i think even some people think that the water has some power in it, that literally changes our insides. with water, though, this is not my experience, knowing the laws of physics. but that is not the point.
i was a little disappointed, cause i saw that you were excited for me, but then i realized it was not because i believed like you do, that the holy spirit is now changing me from the inside out. but thank you for reading my posts, and thank you for yours.

---

Hey Cogs, baptism by full immersion in water does have a spiritual significance.
It is an act of obedience to God, and this is the first way that show our desire to obey God.
When I got baptized, no-one had spoken to me about it, the Holy Spirit told me to get baptized by full immersion when I was 21.
I rejected it, as I was a catholic and believed that I was in the right church.
I told the Holy Spirit that, "If I didn't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, then I would follow Him then, even if I had to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being sarcastic with the Holy Spirit, I glad He didn't just fry me then!)
When I was 35, I had been using and selling drugs for 17 years, I was a binge drinker, smoked, swore, living in sin, steal anything that wasn't nailed down etc.
I was on my way to kill some-one that had slept with my fiancée, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice, quite loud too.
He said, "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
There is more to this story, but that is another story.
I found a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit and full immersion baptism and got baptized on a Wednesday night.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I was just going to go and get baptized and leave, I had no interest in going to any church.
I got into this big tub thing that they used to use for baptisms, and after confessing my faith in Jesus and that He died and rose again, I was laid back under the water.
I was only under a second or two, but as soon as I broke the surface of the water, I felt different. I felt clean, there is no other way to describe it!
I dried off and went into their meeting. The strangest thing was, as I looked at these strangers, I had this feeling in my guts, that I had come home. I walked around and looked intently into everbody's face, I didn't know any body, yet I felt that I had come home!
I felt like the prodigal son, ( which is the exact representation of a sinner returning to God)
I lost the desire for sin, even though I continued to smoke for a couple of weeks, I gave up drugs and fornication, drinking took a few weeks too, but the desire just went away.
I continued purely by habit.
But this was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a wholly separate thing.
They prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit, they told me to keep saying Hallelujah over and over and just go with whatever comes.
I started to speak in tongues, as the Hallelujahs started getting mixed up.
I thought that I was making it up, as I had done it before when I was 21. (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the backyard of my parents home in Adelaide, though I didn't know that is was the Holy Spirit, I thought that I had made up a new language myself!)
I perservered for a couple of months, speaking in tongues now and then, then I went to a Christian camp and they had a prayer meeting where a lot of people would pray in tongues for an hour before the main meeting.
I thought,"Wow, praying for a whole hour in tongues," I had only done it for a few minutes at a time.
I thought that I would give it a go, and went in there the next morning.
I had been praying in tongues, for about 50 minutes when the Holy Spirit reminded me of all the dreams that I had had, those many years ago, and that I had been baptized in the Spirit at the same time. He also reminded me of the all the other things that He had told me way back then
I had to drive to Sydney for some work, after the meeting, it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
I laughed and cried all the way, and I hadn't cried since I was 10 years old!
You just have ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit and receive it by faith.
Then just start speaking in tongues, it doesn't matter what you say, just make up a language and start speaking.
As you pray, and are submitted to the Holy Spirit, He comes and supernaturally, you receive a prayer language.
You will notice the change in your tongue (language) as you pray, it will just flow out, you don't have to concentrate, or think of what you are going to say next, just pray!
If you can, pray for an hour at least, at least once a week, it usually takes 30-40 minutes for our fleshly mind to get out of the way and our spirit to really get into worship.
Pray for a half hour each day and you will really get built up in the spirit.
It is the most natural thing when you do it, you wonder what the fuss is all about, it just fits.
The reason that I am excited for you, is that you are very close to the kingdom of God, but the main thing is to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to you right now!
What ever I say or anybody else says, don't believe it unless you can prove it by the word of God.
Be like the Bereans
Acts 17
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Don't trust me or anybody else for you salvation, trust God.

Peace:)

De Maria

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
And he will make your paths straight.

De Maria,
There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, he may have been taken there to be killed, but there is not even any evidence of that.
Lets look at Peter's ministry,

Galatians 2

6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.
7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.


Funny how their ministry was to the Jews and Paul's was to the gentile romans!

Paul, speaking in Romans 11
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Peter went to Antioch, Samaria, Joppa, Ceasarea and other places, but not Rome.
If he had, then it would have been mentioned as Rome was considered the most important city in the world.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says that a tradition appeared as early as the third century for the belief that Peter was the bishop of Rome for 25 years, these years, according to Jerome, were from 42 A.D. until 67 A.D.
The problem is, that about the year 44, Peter was in the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15).
About 53, Paul joined him in Antioch, (Galatians 2:11)
About 58, Paul wrote his letter to the Christians at Rome in which he sent greetings to 27 persons, but didn't mention Peter!
If Peter was the head of the church, then this would be a bit of a oversight on Pauls part.
Cheers. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

Hey Cogs, baptism by full immersion in water does have a spiritual significance.
It is an act of obedience to God, and this is the first way that show our desire to obey God.
When I got baptized, no-one had spoken to me about it, the Holy Spirit told me to get baptized by full immersion when I was 21.
I rejected it, as I was a catholic and believed that I was in the right church.
I told the Holy Spirit that, "If I didn't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, then I would follow Him then, even if I had to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being sarcastic with the Holy Spirit, I glad He didn't just fry me then!)
When I was 35, I had been using and selling drugs for 17 years, I was a binge drinker, smoked, swore, living in sin, steal anything that wasn't nailed down etc.
I was on my way to kill some-one that had slept with my fiancee, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice, quite loud too.
He said, "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
There is more to this story, but that is another story.
I found a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit and full immersion baptism and got baptized on a Wednesday night.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I was just going to go and get baptized and leave, I had no interest in going to any church.
I got into this big tub thing that they used to use for baptisms, and after confessing my faith in Jesus and that He died and rose again, I was laid back under the water.
I was only under a second or two, but as soon as I broke the surface of the water, I felt different. I felt clean, there is no other way to describe it!
I dried off and went into their meeting. The strangest thing was, as I looked at these strangers, I had this feeling in my guts, that I had come home. I walked around and looked intently into everbody's face, I didn't know any body, yet I felt that I had come home!
I felt like the prodigal son, ( which is the exact representation of a sinner returning to God)
I lost the desire for sin, even though I continued to smoke for a couple of weeks, I gave up drugs and fornication, drinking took a few weeks too, but the desire just went away.
I continued purely by habit.
But this was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a wholly separate thing.
They prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit, they told me to keep saying Hallelujah over and over and just go with whatever comes.
I started to speak in tongues, as the Hallelujahs started getting mixed up.
I thought that I was making it up, as I had done it before when I was 21. (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the backyard of my parents home in Adelaide, though I didn't know that is was the Holy Spirit, I thought that I had made up a new language myself!)
I perservered for a couple of months, speaking in tongues now and then, then I went to a Christian camp and they had a prayer meeting where a lot of people would pray in tongues for an hour before the main meeting.
I thought,"Wow, praying for a whole hour in tongues," I had only done it for a few minutes at a time.
I thought that I would give it a go, and went in there the next morning.
I had been praying in tongues, for about 50 minutes when the Holy Spirit reminded me of all the dreams that I had had, those many years ago, and that I had been baptized in the Spirit at the same time. He also reminded me of the all the other things that He had told me way back then
I had to drive to Sydney for some work, after the meeting, it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
I laughed and cried all the way, and I hadn't cried since I was 10 years old!
You just have ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit and receive it by faith.
Then just start speaking in tongues, it doesn't matter what you say, just make up a language and start speaking.
As you pray, and are submitted to the Holy Spirit, He comes and supernaturally, you receive a prayer language.
You will notice the change in your tongue (language) as you pray, it will just flow out, you don't have to concentrate, or think of what you are going to say next, just pray!
If you can, pray for an hour at least, at least once a week, it usually takes 30-40 minutes for our fleshly mind to get out of the way and our spirit to really get into worship.
Pray for a half hour each day and you will really get built up in the spirit.
It is the most natural thing when you do it, you wonder what the fuss is all about, it just fits.
The reason that I am excited for you, is that you are very close to the kingdom of God, but the main thing is to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to you right now!
What ever I say or anybody else says, don't believe it unless you can prove it by the word of God.
Be like the Bereans
Acts 17
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Don't trust me or anybody else for you salvation, trust God.

Peace:)

---

I thank god he got your attention before you ruined some lives. I can totally see how the spirit could see your future, and then remind you how he was trying to warn you. I don't know how you quit your habits, other than god blessing you. I don't know how you will hear god speaking, when you're not listening, and praying in tongues. I have tried tongues before, but I always thought it was just talking, and thought that if I just pray, and listen to god, it's just as good. As far as obedience, god hasn't prompted me to get baptized (I already have been, but not full immersion), and hasn't prompted to speak in tongues. Right now, I'm trying to obey what I know, and listen to god in case he speaks to me (which I believe he has in the past), so I'll be prepared to not resist, but obey. I need cleansing on the inside, by obeying, and not continuing my way. This is what I think is purification. It's wonderful that god was doing a good work in you all the time, which is as you said about the prodigal son.

I'm glad you brought this up. It highlights a great difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).

---

Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading? Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:

Hebrews 13

7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?

Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And here, St. Paul is obviously doing the same thing, he is teaching Timothy to teach others who would find others to teach and on and on:

2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

So, the Bible is telling me to lean on the understanding of men. Show me where the Bible tells me that I shouldn't listen to them.

Here's a bit more:

Jesus said we should be like little children. Little children learn from their parents:
Matthew 18 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Oh and the Israelites came to Moses to learn the Will of God:
Exodus 18 15 And Moses answered him: The people come to me to seek the judgment of God.

And God told the Israelites to teach their children:
Deuteronomy 4 10 From the day in which thou didst stand before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord spoke to me, saying: Call together the people unto me, that they may hear my words, and may learn to fear me all the time that they live on the earth, and may teach their children.

So, throughout Scripture, God tells us to lean on the understanding of men.

Quote:

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This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.

---

Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.

Quote:

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But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.

---

I never said the Church was manmade. Unless you mean because Jesus is both God and man. The Church was made by Jesus. That is Catholic teaching.

Quote:

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Man can reject their salvation.

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And thereby lose it.

Quote:

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Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

---

Really? Is your body disorganized? What do you think the word "organization" means?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

De Maria

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

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Very good! Did I say to lean on your own understanding or why did you post this?

Here's one for you:

What does this mean:

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Does this mean I should learn from the leaders of my Church? Or does this say that I should not lean on their understanding but on my own?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Acknowledge him, meaning God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit....

He shall direct your ways....

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I'm glad you brought this up. It highlights a great difference between Catholics and Protestants.

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Or Mormons and Christians. (Remember you believe as Mormons do that men become God and that heaven is a place of everlasting fire)

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Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading?

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You do know that all scripture must be read in context and that you cannot take snippets out of context to argue a point.

Prov 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
NKJV

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:

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Hebrews 13
7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

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First let's note that you omitted a large portion of scripture and tied two verses together that are not following one another in scripture. By so doing, you are changing what scripture says. Let's look at the context, using a better translation:

Heb 13:7-17
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
NKJV

Note that this refers to men of God whose faith shows their focus on God, and you are to follow the Bible so as not to get carried away with strange doctrines. These men therefore are to teach you the Bible.

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Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?

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No, but you seem to be missing verses 8-16!

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Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:

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Really? Where do any of these passage say that they did not teach what the Bible teaches?

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Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.

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Only if you apply your private interpretation to the meaning "church". BTW, there are many church organizations today that would cast Jesus out for telling the truth of the gospel - that does not mean that we should obey a church denomination which does not adhere to the word of God.

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I never said the Church was manmade.

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Denominations are all manmade.

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And thereby lose it.

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Did yours fall out of your pocket?

What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:
31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (meaning Jesus)
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mark 16:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.



Rom 15:
18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


Hebrews 2

1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

When you confess you are a sinner and in need of Salvation, when you believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and confess with your mouth His Lordship. The signs that follow will be a change of heart, of attitude, but we must remember Jesus is the Head of the church, and the Word of God is Truth.

We were given aplostle, prophets, teachers preachers, to teach us and for the perfecting of the saints. But we were also given the Holy Spirit, and a heavenly language to lead us into all truth.

We are called the children of God and His Spirit dwells in us,and will lead us into all truth. We are to compare anything that is told to us, no matter what title he calls himself, we are to compare it with the Word of God, God will not contradict Himself.

We know we are the children of God if we walk in love for God is Love, and do those things pleasing in HIS sight.

If God's Word is not final authority in one's life they need to, in my opinion, repent and either get born-again, or if they are born-again, renew their minds with the word of God as we are instructed to do.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



Jesus is our High Priest, and we have been made priests unto God, so that we now have a Way to God, Jesus is the Door, we can go into the very Presence of God in His Name, and fellowship with our Father. God said for us to call upon Him and He would answer us, He would be our everpresent Help in time of trouble, and He would show us His Salvation.