Ask Me Help Desk - Quora question from an agnostic/atheist regarding the Book of Revelation

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If you have a relationship with God then you'd have no desire to try and explain that relationship.

Why not? I would think that telling people about that relationship would be one of the great goals of our lives.

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That's why God's love was never preached among the early church.

That is an absurdly ridiculous statement. Love is proclaimed all over the NT. Spend a little time in a Strong's Concordance. Gal. 2:20 is a wonderful place to start.

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As soon as God breathed into man, The Word (Jesus) was brought to life.

There is nothing at all in the Bible to support such an idea. Nothing...at...all.

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If I believe in Jesus, then I must believe his word to be true. And know that when all of creation is rolled up like a scroll, his word is the only thing we can stand on. I believe because I believe...no rime or reason.

Can you not see that your first sentence is the "rime or reason" for your belief???

Much the same reasoning, why God loves you? It goes beyond reasoning.
God's breath gives birth to life...That life is the breath of his word. We have breath, we have word. Do we use God's breath to speak God's word, or do we use the breath of life to speak our own word? The word of God is in the breath of life. His word (breath) brings life.

If you tell people about your personal relationship, then it is no longer personal. When you talk of your relationship with God, that is all you. it belongs to you, it comes from you. Your "personal relationship" with God has nothing to do with anybody else. It's like giving testimony. It doesn't matter if people understand what you are talking about. It's similar to when Moses scolded Aaron, for not making a sacrifice. To you, John 3:16 might mean something totally different than what it means to me. It's not a matter of who's right or who's wrong. When you are willing to add (unconditional love) to God's word, only then does it become a matter of wanting to be right...in manipulating the interpretation of his word. Just as Eve had done in the Garden, just as the Pharisees had done with the Law of the Sabbath Day. Just as WG and others have claimed the Scribes and the different translations have done.

The truth is not gained by reading the Bible, it is gained by speaking and living the Word. Every word we speak should be filled with that same breath that came out of the mouth of God.

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If you tell people about your personal relationship, then it is no longer personal.

Jesus told us about His relationship with His Father, so I guess it was no longer personal? Paul wrote about his personal relationship with the Corinthian church, so was that no longer personal? Paul wrote this to Timothy. "2 To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.3 I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 longing to see you, even as I recall your tears, so that I may be filled with joy." Having made that personal relationship public, was it no longer personal?

Perhaps you mean it would no longer be a PRIVATE relationship. I would sure agree with that.

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The truth is not gained by reading the Bible.

Oh? "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth."

I will give you one thing. This idea of yours about "truth" certainly does not come from the Bible.

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To you, John 3:16 might mean something totally different than what it means to me. It's not a matter of who's right or who's wrong. When you are willing to add (unconditional love) to God's word, only then does it become a matter of wanting to be right...in manipulating the interpretation of his word. Just as Eve had done in the Garden, just as the Pharisees had done with the Law of the Sabbath Day. Just as WG and others have claimed the Scribes and the different translations have done.

Please show me where I have suggested that "love" in the Bible should be rendered as "unconditional love". That idea came from DW and WG, and not from me, so you're shooting at the wrong target. At any rate, you have already said that you don't get truth from the Bible, so why would you care what the Bible says?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Please show me where I have suggested that "love" in the Bible should be rendered as "unconditional love". That idea came from DW and WG

What's the definition of unconditional love?

I would say it is love with no conditions attached.

Having a "personal relationship" with God doesn't involve telling others about that relationship. It's like having a pastor that can't stop talking about himself and His relationship with his God. It's like having sex and then telling others about it, or taking a selfie after doing the deed.
Having a "personal relationship with God would come out in song. In praise. In word and deed...not trying to explain to others how far your relationship with God has advanced.

I asked if you could interject Unconditional love into the scriptures, where would you place it? You said it belongs in John 3:16.

How does steadfast love differ from unconditional love? I think I'll stick with steadfast love. The prophets of old lived and breathed the word of God...Every breath!

What you fail to realize is; You are nothing. You are just an empty clay jar. You can't explain or convince anybody of anything. It is not you or your understanding of the Scriptures. It's not how you understand the scriptures, it's how you live the scriptures and having the Word of God live in you. In the end (end of all time) there will be no "You." There will only be God and his Word...AKA Jesus...One Word, one God, one Man.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Having a "personal relationship" with God doesn't involve telling others about that relationship.

I agree. It's not telling; instead, it's doing.

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Having a "personal relationship with God would come out in song. In praise. In word and deed...not trying to explain to others how far your relationship with God has advanced.

It's a shame you weren't around to tell that to Paul and John.

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I asked if you could interject Unconditional love into the scriptures, where would you place it? You said it belongs in John 3:16.

I believe the question was, "Is John 3:16 a love scripture?" It most certainly is. I don't recall being asked about UC love.

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How does steadfast love differ from unconditional love? I think I'll stick with steadfast love.

Sounds good to me.

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What you fail to realize is; You are nothing. You are just an empty clay jar.

I am a clay jar for sure. I am not empty. Christ is in me as He is in all genuine Christians.

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You can't explain or convince anybody of anything. It is not you or your understanding of the Scriptures. It's not how you understand the scriptures, it's how you live the scriptures and having the Word of God live in you.

That's a little tricky. We certainly need the Word living in us, and yet to say we cannot explain anything makes no sense. You are trying to explain something in your post and you do so repeatedly. Much of the NT is an explanation of the Gospel and how we are to live, act, and speak, so I can't agree with that observation despite the fact that I would agree it has some partial truth in it.

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In the end (end of all time) there will be no "You." There will only be God and his Word...AKA Jesus...One Word, one God, one Man.

Another statement for which there is no support in the Bible. Even worse, it is flatly contradicted in Rev. 21. "“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

It's not telling? Really??? Jesus would not agree with that assessment. "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops." So please explain to me why we would not both speak and live? And if we are not to speak, then why do you two speak regularly on this site?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So please explain to me why we would not both speak and live? And if we are not to speak, then why do you two speak regularly on this site?

First, we do the loving thing. Then, if asked, we tell why.

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First, we do the loving thing. Then, if asked, we tell why.

If a person claims to love people, but then neglects to tell them the Gospel, then that person has become decidedly both unloving and disobedient. Read the great commission.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If a person claims to love people, but then neglects to tell them the Gospel, then that person has become decidedly both unloving and disobedient. Read the great commission.

So we do a loving thing, then immediately preach the Gospel?

PREACHING the Gospel reminds me (and very likely the unchurched) of those sidewalk preachers shouting out (with the help of a bullhorn) Bible verses and even threats of hellfire.

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So we do a loving thing, then immediately preach the Gospel?

I get your point. It can be situational. I don't share the Gospel with everyone I come in contact with, but I do bear in mind that I cannot do anything more loving than telling someone about Jesus, and to neglect to do so when the opportunity is there is to be unloving in the extreme.

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PREACHING the Gospel reminds me (and very likely the unchurched) of those sidewalk preachers shouting out (with the help of a bullhorn) Bible verses and even threats of hellfire.

I'm not a big fan of that type of preaching, but warning people about an upcoming day of judgment is a very significant act of love.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I get your point. It can be situational. I don't share the Gospel with everyone I come in contact with, but I do bear in mind that I cannot do anything more loving than telling someone about Jesus, and to neglect to do so when the opportunity is there is to be unloving in the extreme.

We agree!

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I'm not a big fan of that type of preaching, but warning people about an upcoming day of judgment is a very significant act of love.

I'd rave about the glories and joys of heaven rather than threaten with hellfire (and I agree with Athos that the after-death situation may not be at all what we believe now).

(I finally heard from Athos today for the first time -- with the clearest message he could possibly send me.)

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We agree

Miracle!!

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I'd rave about the glories and joys of heaven rather than threaten with hellfire (and I agree with Athos that the after-death situation may not be at all what we believe now).

I would prefer to see you agree with Jesus.

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(I finally heard from Athos today for the first time -- with the clearest message he could possibly send me.)

Pretty sure you didn't.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would prefer to see you agree with Jesus.

Jesus used words and ideas that people of His time could understand.

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Pretty sure you didn't.

It was unmistakable!

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Jesus used words and ideas that people of His time could understand.

His words are straightforward and easy to understand. People don't reject them because they cannot understand them. They reject them because they DO understand them and just don't like the meaning.

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It was unmistakable!

Have it your way.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

His words are straightforward and easy to understand. People don't reject them because they cannot understand them. They reject them because they DO understand them and just don't like the meaning.

Nope. In church on Sunday, ask the person sitting next to you where Gehenna is.

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Have it your way.

It was so perfectly done, so beautifully coordinated. I'm still reeling. Just like the first time my son Jeremy reached out to me after he died so unexpectedly, so suddenly.

Anyone can clearly understand the Matthew 25 passage unless she simply doesn’t like it. “Gehenna” is not spoken of in that passage.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Anyone can clearly understand the Matthew 25 passage unless she simply doesn’t like it. “Gehenna” is not spoken of in that passage.

Gehenna — a dark, fiery, evil place of refuse and pain, filled with gnashing of teeth and agony beyond all comprehension.

Jesus referred to it nearly a dozen times in the Gospel accounts, and today, the word is often synonymous with hell, a terrible, vile place that evokes violent images of anguish, unrelenting misery, and destruction.

Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

As I said, He did not mention Gehenna in the Mt. 25 passage. He gave a graphic description of a day of judgment yet to come. It is a description in harmony with many other NT passages. There is no reason to assign any meaning to it other than a literal one unless, of course, one simply doesn't like what he/she is reading.

Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

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Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

And so? In what way does that diminish at all what Jesus and the apostles said about the subject repeatedly?

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Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

I don't see anybody asking "why is that?" My take: he's using something everybody fears - raging fire - to describe the indescribable. Peter referred to the same place as chains in outer darkness, I believe it was he who used the word "tartarus", they are all expressions for the same thing: something so far beyond terrifying there's no way to describe it to finite minds. We have to use illustrations, euphemisms, and metaphors.

Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.

And I have questions. Will there be babies and young children in heaven? Will our pets who are supposedly waiting for us at the Rainbow Bridge be in heaven with us? And with all those people in heaven, how will I find my two grandmas and grandpas? What will we be doing? I've heard we'll be singing praises all the time, but certainly God has more productive activities in mind for us.

@JL; post 87.

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I would think that telling people about that relationship would be one of the great goals of our lives.

Similar to Casting pearl before swine.

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I believe the question was, "Is John 3:16 a love scripture?" It most certainly is.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Main Points For/so : These are link words expanding or explaining something that was said earlier. Context : We need to look at the preceeding verses 14 and 15. “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” This refers to an event in Numbers 21:4-9. God was angry with the Israelites because of their sin of ingratitude. So God sent poisonous snakes which killed many of them. So they cried out to God. God refused to take the snakes away but told Moses to erect a bronze snake on a pole so that when the people who had been bitten looked at the snake they would not die. God provided a way of escape. Thus, in the same way . . . . . . v 16. Loved : past tense. (Not “loves”) Agape love – a love of action, that responds to a need.

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Jesus told us about His relationship with His Father

In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father...still, nobody ever understood. and many still don't understand...just the same as sinners not understanding their relationship with Satan and hell...We need not understand, we need just believe!

When I first posted John 3:16 as not being a love verse, somebody spoke as if I was crazy, and making his life's work meaningless. Do you not understand? What does "your" life's work have to do with anything? We are empty vessels, the work has already been done. it is not us that does anything.

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the "rime or reason" for your belief???

THere is no rime or reason. It was not I that chose. God apparently chose me.

How many Christians would believe God loves Lucifer (of course God loves Lucifer, how could he Not love)?

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I am a clay jar for sure. I am not empty

You'd be better off if you were empty. Being filled with your Idea of Jesus or the holy spirit is still you. You need not Argue the truth. You need not try to convince by arguing. It's much like prophecy, you are speaking but it is not you, being that you don't even know what your saying. I am an empty vessel, not knowing what I am doing or where I am going. I know nothing of truth but I know the Truth lives in me and I will allow it to guide me.

The discussion seems to always flow in the direction of Hell. Just like this world and the kingdoms of this world. We need not be concerned with this world or the kingdoms of this world. We need to focus on the Kindom of Heaven that is within us. Don't become distracted by the World and the things of this world...the world that provides for us and the world that we live and love.

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I don't see anybody asking "why is that?" My take: he's using something everybody fears - raging fire - to describe the indescribable. Peter referred to the same place as chains in outer darkness, I believe it was he who used the word "tartarus", they are all expressions for the same thing: something so far beyond terrifying there's no way to describe it to finite minds. We have to use illustrations, euphemisms, and metaphors.

While I don't completely agree with that, I can live with it. The primary point is, as you said, the indescribable, meaning a terrible, eternal place which you would not wish to spend eternity in.

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Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.

The expression "fire" came directly from Jesus and no one else, so I don't really see why that would be compared to what Dante might have said.

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In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father...still, nobody ever understood. and many still don't understand...just the same as sinners not understanding their relationship with Satan and hell...We need not understand, we need just believe!

When I first posted John 3:16 as not being a love verse, somebody spoke as if I was crazy, and making his life's work meaningless. Do you not understand? What does "your" life's work have to do with anything? We are empty vessels, the work has already been done. it is not us that does anything.

FOR..GOD...SO...LOVED. It explains the motive for the remainder of the verse. To say it is not a love verse is foolish.

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You'd be better off if you were empty.

Sorry Walter, but that is just a foolish, foolish statement that is completely apart from NT teaching. Paul said, "But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that the extraordinary power belongs to God and does not come from us." You can also look at Gal. 2:20. You are simply posting your own ideas which came from who knows where.

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I am an empty vessel, not knowing what I am doing or where I am going. I know nothing of truth but I know the Truth lives in me and I will allow it to guide me.

If the truth is in you, then you are not an empty vessel. Make up your mind.

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In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father

So then it is no longer, according to you, a "personal relationship". You really believe that?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I can live with that. The primary point is, as you said, the indescribable, meaning a terrible, eternal place which you would not wish to spend eternity in.

And who qualifies for this terrible, eternal place? The mentally ill? People who were raised with few if any boundaries? People who believe in another religion, not Christianity? People who have never heard of Jesus? Who else?

Who qualifies? Everyone.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Who qualifies? Everyone.

If that's true, there will be lots of room in heaven.

All have sinned and fall short…

Read between the lines. You argue as if it is all about theology. it's more than doctrine and theology. it's more than the written word...it is life.
If some Jews of yesterday were saved, would you not think that some Jews of today would be saved as well? It's more than a name, it's more than a word, act, or anything else you are able to think up.
You act as if the scriptures is a science book. a piece of literature that must be argued and sought after before it is able to bring any real meaning.

A person need Die before entering into life. Jesus didn't teach us how to live, he taught us how to Die. We don't desire to live, in order to preach the Gospel. That's why the Scriptures are not something that can be taught (so stop trying).

It’s just all your own unsupported opinion. I don’t accept an idea as being true simply because someone claims to have read between the lines. Such observations are common with people whose thinking lies outside of the Bible. He cannot appeal to any Bible teaching, so he instead goes down the road of “reading between the lines” which can take a person just about anywhere.

Nobodies asking you to accept an idea as being - True to you. Hey look, "WE DON'T KNOW THOSE GUYS," they are using the Name Jesus...leave them alone! Simply because you don't understand it (formulate it in your mind) doesn't mean it is false. Gaining an understanding by simply reading is not going to affect you in the same way as gaining an understanding through experience. Everybody experiences different things in different ways.
Yours is not to decide whether it is true or false. Have you ever heard of somebody speaking in tongues (not knowing what they are saying) and going to the country of the tongues that they speak? how about that? wandering aimlessly, speaking a language they have no understanding, and simply speaking the voice of the Spirit. Does your heart flutter when God speaks to you? We are in the "time of Creation." Time is it. This is the time (in all of eternity) that God has spoken. We are still in the creation part of eternity. God's Word is all there is...His Word is creating all things. There is no other Word, there is no other life...no other word/life that will enter eternity. Your words, your life is just for now, it will die and pass away along with everything else.

How does God love Jesus? What does it mean for God to love Jesus? AKA, God to love himself???
Through all of creation is God able to love his SON, Jesus.

We are God's Love. Not because we love, but because God loves Jesus. DOn't you get it? None of this is for us, it is all for Jesus. All of Creation is meant for Jesus...it really has nothing to do with us. We sing, worship, and praise all to his glory...that is us for all eternity - Praise, worship... that's it.

More unsupported opinion which stands apart from the Bible. I would really suggest you read and accept the teaching of Scripture.

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I would really suggest you read and accept the teaching of Scripture.

You mean Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life.
You don't need to understand a word I'm saying. you don't even have to believe it. I pray that one day you will believe for yourself. Do you know what the learned believed before Christ's first coming? You might find yourself (and the Church) having those same beliefs/understandings.
Sorry - the Church is in trouble (according to Scripture)...do you understand? Pay no mind, Go on as if nothing is wrong.

How is -"the Church in trouble (according to Scripture)"?

You meant to add the word "only". "Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not only teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life."

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Paul did not teach the Scriptures.

Oh brother. From Acts 2. "They were devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship..." There are literally dozens of others. As I have said, your ideas do NOT come from the Bible. They come from your own thoughts.

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Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.
The expression "fire" came directly from Jesus and no one else, so I don't really see why that would be compared to what Dante might have said.

Please notice that I said "fire" is a common one and anything *beyond* that comes from Dante.
That annoying word "beyond".

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You meant to add the word "only". "Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not only teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life."

Good insight, WG. The additional "only" would make a lot of difference.