And you know that they do? In the business of translations, producing a corrupted version which is plainly tainted by an "agenda" would be widely known fairly soon.Quote:
Or if those experts have an agenda to promote.
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And you know that they do? In the business of translations, producing a corrupted version which is plainly tainted by an "agenda" would be widely known fairly soon.Quote:
Or if those experts have an agenda to promote.
And it was -- and was accepted (and not challenged) because many Christians wanted to believe that interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Be specific.
One is Paul's coined word, arsenokoitai.
There is an agenda on display about that word alright, but it's not the translators. It's you. No major translation since the days of the KJV renders it as anything other than what is should be rendered as which is homosexual or words to that effect. It comes from two Greek words, "men" and "bed". Not too hard to figure that one out.
But you don't even need Paul's scripture. Jesus settled the issue when He plainly described marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Since sex is only allowed within marriage, then the matter is decided.
There is no definite evidence that Paul coined the term.
Nope, temple or shrine prostitute, as Paul put the two words together, even as boy molester.
https://www.gaychristian101.com/what...enokoitai.html
To say that is a minority position would be the understatement of the year. It is ridiculous and to see that it is on a gay website really settles the issue. Talk about having an agenda???
There is nothing about boy in the two words. "Arsyn" is a Greek word for man. "Koite" is a Greek word for bed that sometimes carries sexual connotations with it. Your speculation is just silliness driven by your own agenda.
Interestingly, you had no comment on this. It really closes the door on sex between two individuals of the same gender. "But you don't even need Paul's scripture. Jesus settled the issue when He plainly described marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Since sex is only allowed within marriage, then the matter is decided."
Additionally, there is not a single instance in the Bible of same-gender sex being approved. It simply is not there.
The centurion and his servant whom Paul encountered were very likely a gay couple. Homosexuality was very common in the Greek world back then.
Wrong. The word appears nowhere else before Paul, and he was not above inventing words. They did that sort of thing, much like modern German.Quote:
There is no definite evidence that Paul coined the term.
The word doesn't mean "bed", it means "rape" as our culture would define its reference. Basically, it's master-slave pederasty.
It has nothing to do with what we call homosexuality today. The fundamental principle behind it was abuse of power.
Jesus didn't define marriage. He condemned divorce for frivolous reasons. He said, what God has joined together, do not sunder. Yet Christians today want to sunder thousands upon thousands of loving bonds because they don't like the plumbing involved. For starters, what they do is none of your business. Or mine. Or WG's or Joe Blow's. It's their business and it's between them and God.
Thanks for shutting down walteroo. Masterfully done and well explained. I appreciate it.
1. The vast part of what was written prior to Paul has disappeared, so it's impossible to say it was not used until Paul used it. Now your point is well taken, but it remains true that it cannot be definitely established that Paul invented the term.
2. As to the meaning of "koite", J. H. Thayer does not agree with you. I can only think that you are descibing "arsenokoite" as opposed to only "koite". Otherwise, your statement that koite means rape is really hard to grasp. But even if you were referring to "arsenokoite", your understanding of the word is most likely incorrect. No major translation agrees with you.
3. As to marriage, what Jesus said in Matthew 19 is a restatement of God's initial definition and description in Genesis. It very plainly describes a union between a "man" and his "wife". It is as clear a definition of marriage as a person can imagine.Quote:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2845: κοίτη
κοίτη, κοίτης, ἡ (ΚΑΩ, ΚΑΙΩ, κεῖμαι akin to κοιμάω); from Homer, Odyssey 19, 341 down; the Sept. chiefly for מִשְׁכָּב, also for שְׁכָבָה etc.;a. a place for lying down, resting, sleeping in; a bed, couch: εἰς τήν κοίτην (see εἰμί, V. 2 a.) εἰσιν, Luke 11:7.
b. specifically, the marriage-bed, as in the Tragg.: τήν κοίτην μιαίνειν, of adultery (Josephus, Antiquities 2, 4, 5; Plutarch, de fluv. 8, 3), Hebrews 13:4.
c. cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful (Leviticus 15:4f, 21-25, etc.; Wis. 3:13, 16; Euripides, Med. 152; Alc. 249): plural sexual intercourse (see περιπατέω, b. α.), Romans 13:13 (A. V. chambering); by metonymy, of the cause for the effect we have the peculiar expression κοίτην ἔχειν ἐκ τίνος, to have conceived by a man, Romans 9:10; κοίτη σπέρματος, Leviticus 15:16; Leviticus 22:4; Leviticus 18:20, 23 (here κοίτη εἰς σπερματισμόν); on these phrases cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans 2, p. 291f
And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? 6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Yes, what other people do is their own business. No one here has tried to tell anyone else what to do. We are discussing Bible translations and God's view of marriage. In all of the Bible, there is not a single instance of same-gender sex, much less of gay marriage, upon which God places His stamp of approval. Marriage is never, ever described as anything other than a union between a man and a woman, and I would sincerely suggest that you be very careful in trying to propose otherwise. We will all give an account, and for you to seem to stand in opposition to what Jesus said is alarming. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent.
4. Not real sure where Walter is coming from. I think your study of Greek is to be lauded.
I know of no place where Paul ever encountered a centurion who was accompanied by a servant. Now Jesus did, but the only way to get the idea that they were lovers is to simply read your own prejudices into the account. I suspect that is exactly what you are doing. There is not a shred of evidence in the story to lead a person to reach that conclusion. But even at that, if Paul or Jesus had indeed encountered a centurion with a servant who was providing sexual services for him, it is extraordinary to conclude that they were approving of that arrangement simply by meeting the person. It is just 100% conjecture driven by your own agenda. You are doing exactly what you are accusing scholars of doing.Quote:
The centurion and his servant whom Paul encountered were very likely a gay couple
This is what the pro-gay advocates are reduced to doing. "Well, maybe this," or "Perhaps that." There is never anything definite, and the many statements in the Bible to the contrary have to be gotten around by the use of linguistic calisthenics.
@JL:Do you understand why this was brought up? Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?Quote:
Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before.
Is this a valid question, for a self-proclaimed Christain to ask? How are you going to give an answer to this (who is in Charge)? Is this a question for only those who study and understand the Greek? somebody, who read the entire Bible, who's been studying it for over 1 yr...and this in question? Maybe somebody would be better off if they seek spiritual reading, instead of Greek! They should read it themselves as opposed to having a Greek read it to them (you think?)
You misunderstood my earlier statement. I was simply asking where it(this topic)was coming from (I already knew)...Now, all can see.
But enough with that.
It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community.Quote:
So the original authors of the New Testament books were all believers in Greek philosophy? After all, they're the ones who wrote IN GREEK. Are they guilty?
dwashbur was not talking about the "Greek understanding" or Greek philosophy. The NT was originally written in the Greek language. dwashbur has studied that language for many years and enjoys/learns from reading NT books in the original Greek.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I apologize. Yes, Jesus, not Paul. I was trying to post here while helping a very upset friend figure out how to get relief for a pinched nerve in her neck.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The centurion Jesus spoke with was not accompanied by his servant. The servant was at home ill. Jesus would have had no way (naturally speaking) of knowing what the relationship was. On top of that, the centurion was commended by the Jewish leadership. It is unlikely in the extreme that they would have done so knowing that he was in a homosexual relationship with the servant. So I just think your suggestion that they were "very likely a gay couple" is without any support at all.
That's my primary objection to much of what the pro-gay side of the argument has to say. It is always just conjecture supported by suppositions which are founded upon speculation. There is nothing of substance.
Actually, it's extremely foolish NOT to look at these issues. The questions are quite valid.Quote:
Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?
Is this a valid question, for a self-proclaimed Christain to ask?
Walter, you seem to be irritated about something, but I don't know what it is. No one has said anything about "Greek philosophy" other than you. It wasn't even in the conversation, so I just can't figure out what has you out of sorts.
You become more in tune with the debate than with truth.Quote:
Look at you all...Debating the "Greek understanding"...how foolish is that?
Actually, it's extremely foolish NOT to look at these issues.
The answer is right in front of you. You bypass the Answer and continue to debate on who knows what!
I asked a Simple Question - "Is there Nothing more to it?."Quote:
Today's Greek reading brought me to something
No one has said anything about "Greek philosophy" other than you.
You simply say "No." I think there might be more to it.But let us get off that for the moment, if you please.Quote:
Repeat: It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community.
That seems to be an ongoing thing with you and WG...you post just to argue. You both have what you believe to be truth, in your head and there is no changing that...Okay then.
Question:is this a sudden relapse or something? Or is your Greek messing with you?Quote:
Wait
Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires.Quote:
WHO is in charge??
I know why you expect this...This site is commonplace...affirming the opposite of.Quote:
Except Jesus didn't contradict him.
...and there is your Answer.Quote:
He only addressed the question of worship.
There is no attribute so essential to God as this. It is for his holiness, more than for anything else, that his creatures worship him.Quote:
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only."
You Honestly don't know? Does it Matter?Quote:
WHO is in charge
Jesus has nothing to do with this World. His sight is set on High, aka God. Jesus talks about the people of this World coming to him.Quote:
Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses.
"who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"
There is a good reason for that...those who know Jesus know who's in Control.Quote:
I haven't seen a single commentary tackle this question.
Yeah, Don't give it a second thought. we know that Satan is a liar and he is the Father of lies. Focus on the things above. This World and the things of this World are going to pass away...all of it is death.Quote:
I confess I've been reading that passage since I was 4 years old and never noticed this before. Anybody have any thoughts on it?
That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss it in Greek. Thinking he is Quite possibly, the foremost authority (this site) on Jesus and the Christian Greek Scriptures.Quote:
Thanks for shutting down walteroo.
And women aren't? (Actually, they, with empathy and unselfish love, are doing as much as or more than men are.)Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Yah, that's it. We're all about, who does the most!Quote:
doing as much as or more than men are
After all, it has everything to do with us [doing]...Not!!!
Actually that's very Sad.Quote:
Actually, they are doing as much as or more than men are.
Replace "empathy and unselfish love ." with Jesus, then "they" would have something. OR - Actually, "he(that be a man)" with empathy and unselfish love - might give them the edge...them as in men ;-)Quote:
they, with empathy and unselfish love
I do believe, just as Jesus Presents us to the Father, Husbands will present their spouse to Jesus... that might just be me though.
You do understand that Men include Women?
You didn't mention women, just men DOING ... "working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires."Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Are you a Witness or LDS?
I don't think that's true. I don't always agree with DW, but he does seek the truth.Quote:
That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss it in Greek.
Well...he certainly is.Quote:
Thinking he is Quite possibly, the foremost authority (this site) on...the Christian Greek Scriptures.
If that is true, how do you explainQuote:
That's my point -Today's Greek reading...Doesn't seek truth, he only wants to discuss Greek.
he does seek the truth.
this?Quote:
Thanks for shutting down walteroo.
Sounds like somebody wanting to be recognized...has little too nothing to do with truth that is found in the Spirit.Quote:
Well...he certainly is.
It runs along the same lines as - I want to feed the poor, but I'll have to take a cooking class before I can get with it.
You were suggesting DW was trying to advance Greek philosophy by mentioning his Greek reading. I'm sorry, but that missed the truth by a mile.
Not only is he the foremost authority on NT Greek on this site, but he is the ONLY person here who has studied Greek formally. It took a great deal of commitment for him to get where he is. Now you are correct in saying that knowledge of Greek won't guarantee a person will arrive at the truth, but I think you are entirely too dismissive of his achievements.
I would suggest you take the burr out from under your saddle and just civilly engage in discussions here. And I say that as one who has had to learn how to tolerate some of the evasiveness and ugliness that has gone on here for as long as I've been involved. I've just had to decide not to return ugly with ugly and to try and be respectful. It ain't easy at all, but I won't advance the gospel any by throwing bricks.
What are you talking about?Read my posts.Quote:
return ugly with ugly
I was simply (nicely) questioning the ability to gain a full understanding while being served Greek. It stemmed from -"Today's Bible reading." - where does, "today's Greek Reading" fit in? first thought - Greek influence???
Then I read thisWhere did that come from? What, - I dare question his life's work...how Dare I !!! You can Kiss each others Arses all you want.Quote:
Thanks for shutting down walteroo. Masterfully done and well explained. I appreciate it.
Clearly, this guy still believes within the sphere of the flesh.
Who's in Charge...as if a simple Greek reading, will bring a whole new meaning? I suggest a person have a good old fashion Bible reading if he misses such an obvious answer (I mean the answer was right there, he even said it)...really. Apparently, he is still oblivious to the Truth...it was not written in Greek, ah yah, yah, that's it.
Watch out for Pride....it's a sure killer.
Which translation/version of the Bible do you use?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I use the Holy Spirit translation.Quote:
Which translation/version of the Bible do you use?
oops, you're still on my ignore list!
Kindly Shut it ;-)
Something like this. "Kindly Shut it ;-)"Quote:
What are you talking about?
return ugly with ugly
Something like this. oops, you're still on my ignore list!
Kindly Shut it ;-) That's all you have? ooow, Sooo ugly...You've just made the list :-P
The image is, speaking a foreign language, such as Greek, that others (such as me) can't possibly understand.Quote:
Today's Greek reading brought me to something
Do you still not get it (clearly has to do with "Greek authority")?Quote:
Thanks for shutting down walteroo.
Explained what? (Arse tickling)Quote:
Masterfully done and well explained.
Who's Speaking Greek?Quote:
I appreciate it.
How are you going to shut this Down?Quote:
WHO is in charge??
Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires.
Do you not Understand???Quote:
He only addressed the question of worship.
This is not Greek...Any Questions?Quote:
Maybe because; there is no attribute so essential to God as this. It is for his holiness, more than for anything else, that his creatures worship him.
That's the image you have of it. It is not the image I have. In fact, you and I can both understand NT Greek if we are willing to put some work into it. I do it all the time. Now certainly not to the level that DW does, but it can be done.Quote:
The image is, speaking a foreign language, such as Greek, that others (such as me) can't possibly understand.
WG asked a good question of you. Are you JW or LDS?
I understand this to be true. It is easy enough, and readily available.Quote:
That's the image you have of it. It is not the image I have. In fact, you and I can both understand NT Greek if we are willing to put some work into it. I do it all the time. Now certainly not to the level that DW does, but it can be done.
I'm not talking about Greek. I was wondering about the Greek reading person who posted the question.It has been made plain as Day. His Posts make it, plain as day.Quote:
That's the image you have of it. It is not the image I have
His reaction speaks louder than Words. Why should he feel threatened by such a question?Quote:
Are you referring to the process of organizing thoughts and ideas within some established framework
I assume you are asking this because of my previous statement; Husband presenting wife to Jesus. The same as Jesus presents us to his Father?Quote:
WG asked a good question of you. Are you JW or LDS?
Why would you have a problem with this? Any chance you are missing something?
Perhaps to you. Not to anyone else.Quote:
I'm not talking about Greek. I was wondering about the Greek reading person who posted the question.It has been made plain as Day. His Posts make it, plain as day.
What makes you think he feels threatened?Quote:
Why should he feel threatened by such a question?
You are welcome to your opinion. I get frustrated with DW because he makes posts and then won't respond to answers to those posts, but that's his prerogative. The central point remains that he was not trying to advance "Greek philosophy" as you suggested.
Let's move on. We've beaten this to death.
You know that is what is so frustrating about the two of you. You read a post with preconceived understanding. I am constantly having to go back and search and repost, and after I do you are off on another tangent. Then when we come back to the heart of the matter, you ask the same questions...having me search for one of my previous posts...knowing that the two of you are anal retentive, having to use exact verbiage as before.Give the benefit of the doubt...you tell me? I'll give you a little help - Thanks for Shutting Walteroo down. I simply asked a question and his response told me what I first suspected. I'm a bit flabbergasted that you still don't see it. Your first response was a solid no - Greek does not influence...I believe it can and does...such as here and now. And it would be foolish for somebody like DW to blow it off, as offensive...to even suggest such a thing! I'm not saying it is a stupid question. I'm saying that maybe DW lost sight of the ball, and it might have something to do with the Greek...for a Christian...There should never ever be any doubt about "who is in Charge." At some point in our lives, it doesn't even matter who is in Charge... it should only be about praise and Worship.Quote:
Why should he feel threatened by such a question?
Anybody can find the Greek meaning, it's at our fingertips. It's not that Complicated. But when you become educated by it or give your life over too it, that's a different story...Our Eyes become disordered.
Now we can shut it!
You are right in that you initially simply asked a question. But then you started down roads like this. "Reading the Bible vs having a greek read it to you?" So how you come up with "having a greek read it to you" is beyond me. No one said anything about a Greek reading the NT to DW.
"It's not that Complicated." Actually, it does become complicated. I'm glad we have people like DW. I don't just blindly accept his conclusions and I wouldn't recommend that anyone else do so, but his area of study is very useful. If not for people like him, you and I wouldn't have English translations to read.
Does waltero know the NT was written in a language called Greek? English didn't exist back then.
"The basic reason why Greek was chosen for the New Testament instead of Aramaic or Hebrew was that the writers wished to reach a broad, Gentile (non-Israelite) audience, not just a Jewish audience."
https://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/...ish%20audience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm lovin' this. Hi, Waltero!
Nice article, WG, but I have a quibble or two (or three).
To quote:
Why was the New Testament originally written in the Greek and not in Hebrew or some other language?
Matthew first wrote in Hebrew.
He could have, but did not, use the much harsher Hebrew term for dogs commonly used by the Jews in their hatred and contempt for Gentiles.
The underlined leads to present day anti-semitism. Did the author really have to use such inflammatory terms?
Given that the Bible is the most popular book ever printed, proved wise indeed.
And the least read/understood of all those books.
So nice to be back.
Hello Athos, was wondering when you would show up ;-)
What's the difference? He said, "Greek reading" (belonging to a book club?)...Funny how words can be so open to interpretation...think maybe he wanted to get into some Greek?Quote:
So how you come up with "having a greek read it to you"
I understand what he said. - It's no use, if you don't see it by now, you will never, never see it.Quote:
Today's Greek reading
Okay, one last try: What if I started off with - Today's spiritual reading? or "Today's Latin reading"??? "Today's Bible reading" puts us all on the same level, same playground...When referring to one's Greek/Bible - It’s important, to distinguish between terminology and techniques in contrast to tenets...Don't you think?
The greeks were the World stage. Worldview, morals, and central claims of Judeo-Christianity far predate Greek philosophers. virtually all questions of truth, ethics, worldview, and morality are still discussed using the basic principles of Greek philosophy.Quote:
"The basic reason why Greek was chosen for the New Testament instead of Aramaic or Hebrew was
Would it be fair to say that, when Western culture thinks of “philosophy,” what’s in mind is really “Greek philosophy?
"What's the difference?" Seriously? There is an enormous difference between reading Greek versus listening to a Greek read. The NT authors were not Greeks.Quote:
What's the difference? He said, "Greek reading"
Interesting question. I'm not well versed on philosophy so it would be hard to answer. For many people, it seems to be eastern philosophy that rules the day, but I think western culture has been more influenced by Christianity than anything else. Hard to say.Quote:
Would it be fair to say that, when Western culture thinks of “philosophy,” what’s in mind is really “Greek philosophy?
What's the difference when reading DW's [Greek] interpretation vs some other Joe Smuckatelli's interpretation...that I can find on the Web?Quote:
"What's the difference?" Seriously? There is an enormous difference between reading Greek versus listening to a Greek read.
What's the difference [too any of "us"] - is what I was speaking of...even if we were involved, in learning Greek. Do you now understand where DW (wittingly or unwittingly) was going with this??? That's where we get this - "(speaks volumes) Thanks for shutting down walteroo. Masterfully done and well explained. I appreciate it (you clearly recognize his athoriti)"...Are the two of you speaking/reading greek? cause I don't see it.Quote:
Maybe somebody would be better off if they seek spiritual reading, instead of Greek! They should read it themselves as opposed to having a Greek read it to them (you think?)
I think it has to do with DW believing he trumps all others with his interpretation of the Scriptures...Hence "thanks for shutting Down Walteroo!"Where did this come from?Quote:
WHO is in charge??
Maybe it was the greek in him that missed it???Quote:
Except Jesus didn't contradict him...He only addressed the question of worship.
Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires... It is for his holiness, more than for anything else, that his creatures worship him.
And all we get is -"thanks for shutting down Walteroo!" He can't see it because he can't get past the Greek (pride).
It's Okay if you don't see it that way. there really is no matter for you. It should matter to him.
Not so hard really. virtually all questions of truth, ethics, worldview, and morality are still discussed using the basic principles of Greek philosophy...I believe most of us would understand this to be the case.Quote:
Hard to say.
It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community. "Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before"...Exactly!
@JL: I don't understand how you feel this is hate speech. I am being open and honest and in no way hateful. If somebody feels hate or hurt, it is only their pride that they are feeling...and that's OK.
I might not enter this site as frequently as most of you. But I do keep up on most of the Posts. I don't respond because I have no interest in responding to a predictable outcome...hate often rules the day in here, then comes -The End!
This is where I come, trying to hone my writing skills and maybe visit with Friends. Tis good to search the Scriptures as well.
Searching the Scriptures can be done when they are in Greek, Latin, Urdu, Tagalog, Farsi, or English. Philosophy has nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Oh brother, you really want to go there? It has a lot more to do with "just searching" Scripture.Quote:
Searching the Scriptures can be done when they are in Greek, Latin, Urdu, Tagalog, Farsi, or English.
Philosophy has nothing to do with it
Philosophy literally means “a love of wisdom."
Bye for now.
I said enough. I'll let you work it out.
Every time you read your English Bible, you are reading "some other Joe Smuckatelli's" translation. To translate is not the same as to interpret.Quote:
What's the difference when reading DW's [Greek] interpretation vs some other Joe Smuckatelli's interpretation...that I can find on the Web?
A worthwhile objective.Quote:
This is where I come, trying to hone my writing skills and maybe visit with Friends. Tis good to search the Scriptures as well.
No one has suggested otherwise. But DW DID NOT use the Greek NT to advance Greek philosophy. What he did in the Greek is done in English translations millions of times a day. "In my Bible reading this morning, I noticed something I had never picked up on before." Exact same thing. We certainly don't suggest the person is trying to advance "English philosophy".Quote:
It would be naïve to think that Greek religious or spiritual ideas never, in any way, made inroads into the Judeo-Christian community. "Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before"...Exactly!
As I said, searching Scripture -- in ANY language -- has nothing to do with a formal study of that country's philosophy but has everything to do with making the Scriptures available to all people and promoting the Gospel of Christ through the learning, study, and application of God's Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
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