God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And a whole lot more!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
He was the first to translate the Bible into something accessible to the common man?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Luther was the first to take the power of interpretation away from the RCC by making the Bible accessible to the common man.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
You think that he gave the Bible in a language other than Hebrew to the Hebrews?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Sorry to tell you this, but the RCC never had the power of interpretation. They only claimed they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, they did. The common man was in thrall to the church for interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If you believe with your heart and believe with your mouth.
No one can come to the Father except through Jesus
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Matt 7:27 And then I will confess unto them that I never aknew them; and they shall bdepart into ceverlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
You will know them by their fruits
What do you do with those verses??
If God accepts people who reject him into his kingdom then Jesus died for NO reason.
So then why do you not believe what these verses say and mean then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
They claimed authority that was never theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If you claim that they legitimately had that authority, you'd have to show me where. But nonetheless, even if that were true, Luther was not the first. I mentioned Wyfliffe, and though you may not be aware, he was ahead of Luther by 200+ years. And there were others.
God inspired Man. Man wrote the books. The books were collected over time. Centuries later, they were put into one book: The Bible. After Jesus, God never presented Himself to another man. What makes you think that God himself put the Bible together?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And where is this evidence that it was perfectly preserved??
Don't make silly claims and you won't get silly responses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Even if I were to look past the fact that you are using some free, geocities website (that anyone could have put together and typed anything into without a penny from their pocket) to try and PROVE anything to me, this website itself admits that the OLDEST version of the completed NT dates back to 325AD - 350 AD. So what is it that you are trying to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
NOWHERE in the Bible does it list off WHO and WHAT would placed into God's Word. It was not until 300 years after the death of Jesus that all these books were assembled... but who said what goes and what stays??
Obviously God did not... because nowhere in the Bible does it state what books are to be in the Bible. So, if you claim that God said which books go and which books stay, you are saying that there is SOMETHING ELSE that is the Word of God... this something is what told whoever to put the Bible together as it is today.
Either that or God, Himself, came down with a Bible to deliver to the world.. which again, will go against the Bible itself and implode your entire theory.
God used Luther to translate the entire Bible into German in a six-part edition in 1534. Before than only educated churchmen could read it (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I think we are going off track with Luther and who interpreted the Bible.
Four or five of us have asked WG why she believes all go to heaven when the Bible clearly states otherwise. We have yet to hear the explanation of her interpretation of the verses Tj and I asked about.
All the stuff about the origins of the Bible is side tracking HOW do you interpret the verses that Tj3, me and Donn asked you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You claimed I wasn't answering you on that last post whenever I did answer you but you are totally avoiding the question here.
Yes, of course, that's when the printing press was invented !Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Tick
You seem to have a very low view of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Why don't you start by looking at a comparison for the Dead Sea scrolls to what we have today.Quote:
And where is this evidence that it was perfectly preserved??
Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist? :pQuote:
Even if I were to look past the fact that you are using some free, geocities website (that anyone could have put together and typed anything into without a penny from their pocket) to try and PROVE anything to me, this website itself admits that the OLDEST version of the completed NT dates back to 325AD - 350 AD. So what is it that you are trying to say?
Actually, there are many books in the Bible identified by other books in the Bible as scripture, for example the writings of Paul are scripture:Quote:
NOWHERE in the Bible does it list off WHO and WHAT would placed into God's Word. It was not until 300 years after the death of Jesus that all these books were assembled... but who said what goes and what stays??
2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV
You really need to take more time at doing your research before coming on here making unvalidated claims (and I have yet to see you validate a single claim).
They didn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I'll give you this: "Wycliffe was also an early advocate for translation of the Bible in the common tongue. He completed his translation directly from the Vulgate into vernacular English in the year 1382, now known as the Wycliffe Bible."
150 years.
And it was translated into many languages centuries before that. Wycliffe translated it into English in more recent times before Luther.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So what? Do you focus your worship on God or on Luther?
As Nohelp4u said, why don't you address the verses that I posted earlier rather than keep going down this rathole with inordinate focus on one man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Apparently YOU didn't know it.
How about addressing those verses that I posted earlier?
Nifty coincidence, doncha think?Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
[QUOTE=Tj3;1847722
Why don't you start by looking at a comparison fo the Dead Sea scrolls to what we have today.
Ho hum - so you read one line and missed everything else. Pretty myopic vision I'd say - have you seen an optometrist? :p
.[/QUOTE]
That was a really intelligent comment, Tj, kind of immature at best... seen an optometrist ?
As for dead sea scrolls, they are undeciperable, in pieces, the arabs that found them didn't know what they had so they were abused for quite a while until turning them over to the authorities. I am seeing them tomorrow, they are being displayed at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Wonderful works of art but who can read them to actually know what they contain, Tj ? Of course the Jews lauded the discovery, but Jesus wasn't Jewish.
Tick
Well, if someone is going to look at a whole page and ignore everything but one line, I've got to question their attention to detail, either eyesight or deliberately ignoring the rest of the information.Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
Take the time to check around - there are a number of translations of the scrolls available - I am looking at one here at my desk. There is technology today which can pick out that which might otherwise not be visible on the manscripts.Quote:
As for dead sea scrolls, they are undeciperable, in pieces, the arabs that found them didn't know what they had so they were abused for quite a while until turning them over to the authorities. I am seeing them tomorrow, they are being displayed at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Wonderful works of art but who can read them to actually know what they contain, Tj ? Of course the Jews lauded the discovery, but Jesus wasn't Jewish.
Tick
You'd be amazed.
Myopic? Maybe that is why the question of the topic here is being evaded?
What is the interpretation of the verses that say not all people are going to heaven if you believe the Bible and say everybody is going to heaven?
I think you have a point. Let me post my question back up here again and see if WG or anyone else has the courage to respond:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
To WG or anyone else who thinks all paths lead to God:
I'd be interested in hearing how you apply your own personal interpretation to these verses to make them say that there are many ways to be saved other than Jesus.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV
Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV
Tj, there are so many pieces missing in the scrolls, no one knows what they refer to.
Tick
You really need to check out your facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
That doesn't help answer what you believe the interpretation about not all people being saved is to justify your belief that they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by tickle
That wasn't my issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Tick
IT IS the issue of the OP's post.
It would be nice if you all want to discuss the origins of the Bible and its history to start a new post.
Do all paths eventually lead to God? That is the original question. Right?
I don't think that I have to reaffirm what I believe, all of you know very well that I'm a Deist.
Having said that, you Christians seem to think that the only way to God is through the bible. I disagree.
I don't believe that the bible is the word of God, yet I do believe in God. I don't believe in "organized" religion, in one mans opinion about a man written book, but I do believe in God.
So, you decide. According to your "Book of God", I'm going to hell. I guess in the end, we'll see who's right and who's wrong.
I think some of you may be surprised.
Peace out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
But you also don't claim you are any religion, Christian or even believe the Bible.
The question is why do Christians believe that anybody goes to heaven and they believe what they want out of the Bible but don't believe it when the Bible has many verses to the contrary. Either they believe the Bible or they don't as Christians.
The Christians who are making the claim seem to be side tracking onto another topic and avoiding the question.
I do believe that many Christians will be surprised as you say.
Matt 7 even says that.
With all due respect, Tj3, you are side-stepping every issue here.
I have a very low view of men. Man is flawed. We already know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You are assuming then that God intervened in the world as He did in the OT, then with His Son in the NT, then no more since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ... except to personally piece together the Bible centuries later.
How can you, as a Christian, be so sure of this? The Bible tells you NOTHING about what the Bible is intended to be or how the Bible was intended to be put together. And just to bring this up now, as you argued below, yes... books of the Bible mention other authors of other books... but this IN NO WAY says ANYTHING about how the Bible should be put together! That is just absurd.
I scanned it looking for relevant information pertaining to the discussion at hand... namely: dates. And that is what I had found. And I don't need an optometrist for once I was blind, but now I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Again, I understand that this person mentioned that person and his writings. But this says nothing about the Bible instructing WHOEVER on how to construct the pages of the Bible. It doesn't say that the Bible will include: Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, etc... (thats all the order I could remember off the top of my head).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I don't believe I am making any claims other than stating the obvious and challenging what so many Christians have blindly believed for years. You keep speaking of this "evidence" to prove everything but you have yet to supply any... other than a biased piece written by someone with an opinion. That's hardly evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The problem that we will inevitably run into is the same that occurs here over and over again. You, like so many religious types, refuse to really look at these kinds of questions... be it due to pompousness or fear that what you have blindly believed for so long could be faltered.
Therefore, your responses tend to brush off the question rather than tackling it head on... throwing religious dogma around to attempt to defuse the question... or using the same reference which is being disputed as your "proof".
You have no idea what I believe but you continue to attack my beliefs since I am the one answering the questions.
As for what this all has to do with the OP... the translation, interpretation, and understanding of the Bible is directly related to what the Christian knows about what path or paths can/will/do lead to God. And the problem is just that.
Anyway, I have to bow out for today... and the weekend. Tj3, it is a pleasure to discuss with you... I hope you don't dismiss this as anything less.
To the rest of you, happy hunting!
Why don't you answer the question I asked long ago in this thread, and you have successful avoided?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Can you repeat it so we don't have to reread through 20 pages to figure out which question you are referring to?
Ah, the ad hominems begin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This isn't going anywhere.
The question was what do you do with all the verses in the Bible that say not all go to heaven?
How do you interpret them or do you just pretend they aren't in there or what?
If you want to repeat your question we can answer that too, but I am not rereading 20 pages to figure out what it was.
Actually, you are hijacking the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
You haven't been reading what I said, have you. I said nothing about the Bible being stitched together centuries later, That is what I argued against.Quote:
You are assuming then that God intervened in the world as He did in the OT, then with His Son in the NT, then no more since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ... except to personally piece together the Bible centuries later.
Then you'd better look again.Quote:
I scanned it looking for relevant information pertaining to the discussion at hand... namely: dates. And that is what I had found. And I don't need an optometrist for once I was blind, but now I see.
I said that it was an example, so yes it does tell us many of the books, and we have a great deal more evidence in the early church writings that they already knew what composed the Bible by the end of the 1st century.Quote:
Again, I understand that this person mentioned that person and his writings. But this says nothing about the Bible instructing WHOEVER on how to construct the pages of the Bible. It doesn't say that the Bible will include: Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, etc... (thats all the order I could remember off the top of my head).
I supply some evidence and you just ignore and deny.Quote:
You keep speaking of this "evidence" to prove everything but you have yet to supply any...
I am not attacking your beliefs so much as your false claims, lack of validation, refusal to provide any validation and your refusal to look at anything which disagrees with what you want to believe.Quote:
You have no idea what I believe but you continue to attack my beliefs since I am the one answering the questions.
I note that you omitted the smiley face - why was that I wonder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yep this thread has been hijacked and nobody wants to answer the original question.
Yes, what was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I have a life outside of here, and most of my day has been working at the computer putting together a very lengthy proposal, so if you posted something 20 pages back, I probably did miss it.
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