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-   -   Do you believe predestination is a biblical teaching? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=342538)

  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:29 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    we chose Him

    No. He chose us. We did nothing.

    From The Formula of Concord --

    2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think
    Anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. Rom. 3, 12: They
    Are together become unprofitable. John 8, 37: My Word hath no place in you.
    John 1, 5: The darkness comprehendeth (or receiveth) it not [the light]. 1
    Cor. 2, 14: The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly
    Signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the
    Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are
    Foolishness unto him; neither can he know them. 13] Much less will he
    Truly believe the Gospel, or assent thereto and regard it as truth. Rom. 8,
    7: The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God;
    For it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be. And, in a
    Word, it remains eternally true what the Son of God says, John 15; 5:
    Without Me ye can do nothing. And Paul, Phil. 2, 13: It is God which
    Worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. 14] To all godly
    Christians who feel and experience in their hearts a small spark or longing
    For divine grace and eternal salvation this precious passage is very
    Comforting; for they know that God has kindled in their hearts this
    beginning of true godliness,
    and that He will further strengthen and help
    Them in their great weakness to persevere in true faith unto the end.

    24] But before man is enlightened, converted, regenerated, renewed, and
    Drawn by the Holy Ghost, he can of himself and of his own natural powers
    Begin, work, or concur in working in spiritual things and in his own
    Conversion or regeneration just as little as a stone or a block or clay. For
    Although he can control the outward members and hear the Gospel, and to a
    Certain extent meditate upon it, also discourse concerning it, as is to be
    Seen in the Pharisees and hypocrites, nevertheless he regards it as
    Foolishness, and cannot believe it. And in this respect he acts even worse
    Than a block, inasmuch as he is rebellious and hostile to God's will, unless
    the Holy Ghost is efficacious in him, and kindles and works in him faith
    and other virtues pleasing to God, and obedience.


    25] Thirdly, in this manner, too, the Holy Scriptures ascribe conversion,
    Faith in Christ, regeneration, renewal, and all that belongs to their
    Efficacious beginning and completion, not to the human powers of the
    Natural free will, neither entirely nor half, nor in any, even the least or
    Most inconsiderable part, but in solidum, that is, entirely, solely, to the
    divine working and the Holy Ghost
    , as also the Apology teaches.
    26] Reason and free will are able to a certain extent to live an outwardly
    Decent life; but to be born anew, and to obtain inwardly another heart,
    Mind, and disposition, this only the Holy Ghost effects. He opens the
    Understanding and heart to understand the Scriptures and to give heed to
    The Word, as it is written Luke 24, 45: Then opened He their understanding
    That they might understand the Scriptures. Also Acts 16, 14: Lydia heard
    Us; whose heart the Lord opened that she attended unto the things which
    Were spoken of Paul. He worketh in us both to will and to do of His own
    Good pleasure, Phil. 2, 13. He gives repentance, Acts 5, 31; 2 Tim. 2, 25. He
    Works faith, Phil. 1, 29: For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not
    Only to believe on Him. Eph. 2, 8: It is the gift of God. John 6, 29: This is
    The work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. He gives an
    Understanding heart, seeing eyes, and hearing ears, Deut. 29, 4; Matt. 13,
    15. He is a Spirit of regeneration and renewal, Titus 3, 5. 6. He takes away
    The hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may
    Walk in His commands, Ezek. 11, 19; Deut. 30, 6; Ps. 51, 10. He creates us
    In Christ Jesus to good works, Eph. 2, 10, and makes us new creatures, 2
    Cor. 5, 17; Gal. 6, 15. And, in short, Every good gift is of God, Jas. 1, 17. No
    One can come to Christ unless the Father draw him, John 6, 44. No one
    Knoweth the Father, save him to whom the Son will reveal Him, Matt. 11,
    27. No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 12, 3.
    Without Me, says Christ, ye can do nothing, John 15, 5. All our sufficiency
    Is of God, 2 Cor. 3, 5.

    40] In the Small Catechism of Dr. Luther it is thus written: I believe that I
    cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or
    come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel,
    enlightened me with His gifts, and sanctified and kept me in the true
    faith;
    even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole
    Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true
    Faith, etc.

    41] And in the explanation of the Second Petition of the Lord's Prayer the
    following words occur: How is this, done? When our Heavenly Father gives
    us His Holy Spirit, so that by His grace we believe His holy Word and live a
    godly life, etc.

    42] These testimonies state that by our own powers we cannot come to
    Christ, but God must give us His Holy Ghost, by whom we are enlightened,
    sanctified, and thus brought to Christ through faith, and kept with Him;
    and no mention is made either of our will or cooperation.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    No. He chose us. We did nothing.

    I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

    Acts 2:37-39
    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
    NKJV

    As was Paul?

    Rom 10:12-13
    13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
    NKJV
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:38 PM
    arcura
    Tj3,
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.

    I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

    No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.
    So I do believe.
    :)Peace and kindness,:)
    Fred
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:45 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl,
    Think about this.
    You said "we chose Him"
    (John 6:44): Jesus addressed the crowd, «No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise him up on the last day. It has been written in the Prophets: They shall all be taught by God. So whoever listens and learns from the Father comes to me.
    It appears to me from that, that God The Father chose those who were or are to follow Jesus.
    It also appears to me the due to our free will we could possibly chose not to follow our calling IF called by God to follow Jesus.
    How do you think about that?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:45 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Tj3,
    I disagree. God is perfect, infinite and eternal in all His aspects. IF we could some how fully comprehend God we would still be mortals.

    No matter how much knowledge we might be able to acquire we will still limited be morals.

    Precisely.

    Being mortal, being so finite and so constrained by the time space continuum means that we can never comprehend an infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being such as the one true God who created and holds heaven and earth in place.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:46 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I guess that Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy was wrong.

    The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

    See Post #161.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:47 PM
    adam7gur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.

    I am not sure what you are getting at.

    Tj3
    I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.There are many verses that tells us that every believer in Christ becomes or at least should become like Christ.Christ is unlimited so through Him I see myself unlimited too!God sees me that way , He created me like Him.He calls me also god and if He calls me like that then no doubt , I AM !
    And if I AM , I have no limits of any kind! I AM is the name of God and if I realize and confess that I AM , then I AM like Him! I can do everything through Christ like Paul says.
    God introduces Himself to Moses saying '' I AM that I AM '' , and we have to remember on our side what WE ARE and WE ARE sons and daughters of the I AM .I AM is our Father and every father gives his name to his children, so if I AM is the name of our Father , then I AM is our name also, and I AM is not just a name or a title, but it is God Himself!
    What would you think if I tell you that ''before Abraham was, I AM?''
    I AM not flesh and blood, I AM so much more!
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:47 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Wondergirl,
    Think about this.
    You said "we chose Him"

    Where did I say that?
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:50 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam7gur View Post
    He created me like Him.He calls me also god

    God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:53 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl,
    Oops, sorry.
    I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
    Fred
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:56 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Wondergirl,
    Oops, sorry.
    I looked back on this thread and it was Tj3 who said that.
    Fred

    Thank you! I have always taken the stand that God has chosen us, not the other way around. God does all the work.

    During the '80s, there was a bumper sticker, "I found God." Our minister always chuckled when he talked about it and said it should read just the opposite, "God found me."
  • Apr 29, 2009, 10:58 PM
    adam7gur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    God created us in His image, which does not mean "like Him" meaning also gods. Where does God call us gods?

    Psalm 82: 6
    John 10:34
  • Apr 29, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam7gur View Post
    Psalm 82: 6
    John 10:34

    John 10 refers to Psalm 82 which is a condemnation of those who try to exalt themselves and who judge others in an unjust and unfair manner.

    Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 11:01 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    The Holy Spirit was already at work so Peter could repent. It was not Peter doing it.

    See Post #161.

    So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 11:03 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam7gur View Post
    Tj3
    I hope you understand that there is a huge difference between a jar and our God who created everything and everything is inside Him.

    There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.
  • Apr 29, 2009, 11:10 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    So even when scripture says that WE must choose, you choose to interpret as meaning that we do not choose.

    See Post #161. We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning. (Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)
  • Apr 29, 2009, 11:22 PM
    adam7gur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    John 10 refers to Psalm 82 ....

    Exactly! This is the second testimony of what God says in Psalm 82 and as the law teaches it takes two witnesses to confirm every word,so Psalm 82 and John 10 are two witnesses that confirm the word!
    If God says so , then it is so.I dare not add anything to that or take something out of that!
  • Apr 30, 2009, 05:37 AM
    adam7gur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

    God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6 clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!
    I can see how our flesh blocks our view but we have to see things like God does!
    If He says so , who am I to dissagree?
    As for who chose who, it takes two witnesses to testify the truth , so yes God chose us and yes we chose God! We and God , two witnesses that confirm the truth!
  • Apr 30, 2009, 05:59 AM
    adam7gur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    There is also nothing in scripture which suggests that we become in existence from eternity when we receive Christ as Saviour. That is neither scriptural nor logical.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    The Son is the firstborn among many breathren and those who are conformed in His image are forknown and predestinated and those God called and justified and glorified.All those verbs are in past tense , so how can God call, justify, glorify someone if that someone does not somehow exist?
    All those who belong to Christ exist IN CHRIST!!
    So yes it is Scriptural and yes it is logical , maybe some find it hard to believe but then again isn't it hard to believe that God became flesh and dwelt among us?

    Furthermore...
    Matthew 8:22 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

    How can a dead one bury someone else?But everyone who does not follow Christ is dead,or it is fair to say that those who follow Christ are alive.Those who do not follow Him do not exist, and those who do follow Him, exist!

    To follow Christ is to exist and to exist is to be in His image and to be in His image is to be foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified!
    AMEN!!
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    We do not choose to come to God. He has chosen us. Scripture does not ever say that we must choose, not with that level of meaning.

    I gave an example, but you told me that it doesn't mean what it says.

    Quote:

    (Yeah, yeah. I know you hate to think something is free, a gift, that you had nothing to do with getting it.)
    It is indeed free, but like any other gift that is indeed free, we can accept or reject it.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:18 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam7gur View Post
    God Himself in Scripture in Psalm 82:6 clearly says '' I said , you are gods and sons of the Almighty '' and Jesus in John 10:34 repeats those same words testifying their truth!
    I can see how our flesh blocks our view but we have to see things like God does!
    If He says so , who am I to dissagree?
    As for who chose who, it takes two witnesses to testify the truth , so yes God chose us and yes we chose God! We and God , two witnesses that confirm the truth!

    Read Psalm 82. These "gods" are unjust judges who judge falsely, do not understand, walk around in darkness and die like men.

    Is that the type of "god" that you want to be?
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:20 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by adam7gur View Post
    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Foreknowledge (free will) and predestination are both true. Did you read what I said earlier regarding my position?
  • Apr 30, 2009, 08:57 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    It is indeed free, but like any other gift that is indeed free, we can accept or reject it.

    Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 09:14 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.

    Wondergirl,

    I offer one suggestion that perhaps can show what is meant. The free gift was grace, also known as God's love. So it is the free gift of love that the Father has sent to us which does give us salvation to life eternal. NOW refer: Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 09:26 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    John 10 refers to Psalm 82 which is a condemnation of those who try to exalt themselves and who judge others in an unjust and unfair manner.

    Nowhere does scripture endorse the idea that men become gods.

    True, but I believe what is being said is that Christ dwells within us, and we in HIM.
    Once you have accepted baptism in newness of life, as scripture references, you then are a temple and holy. Be ye holy for I am Holy. This goes into the meat of righteousness and further given if God is willing. It is a measure of gift offered accordance to the Will of God.

    In the likenss of the Holy Spirit, just as Genesis 1:26 shown that Christ and The Father are connected.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 09:41 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Wondergirl,

    I offer one suggestion that perhaps can show what is meant. The free gift was grace, also known as God's love. So it is the free gift of love that the Father has sent to us which does give us salvation to life eternal. NOW refer: Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    That's later, after the Holy Spirit has worked faith in us and we have become one of God's own again. God will always open the door when any of His own knock.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 10:00 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    That's later, after the Holy Spirit has worked faith in us and we have become one of God's own again. God will always open the door when any of His own knock.

    Then perhaps you must refer: Matthew13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

    I just offered it as seed that we are by choice of free will on the other thread. It can be the experiences of life that builds our fruitful or unfruitful life
  • Apr 30, 2009, 11:24 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Nope! Even our accepting is by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject of our own free will.

    You keep telling me that, but that is not in scripture. Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 11:27 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    True, but I believe what is being said is that Christ dwells within us, and we in HIM.
    Once you have accepted baptism in newness of life, as scripture references, you then are a temple and holy. Be ye holy for I am Holy. This goes into the meat of righteousness and further given if God is willing. It is a measure of gift offered accordance to the Will of God.

    In the likenss of the Holy Spirit, just as Genesis 1:26 shown that Christ and The Father are connected.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    True - but God remains God and we remain men. Scripture only speaks of Jesus as the Son of God, not us. We are called adopted sons, and the important difference is that a son by adoption receives the benefits of a son by nature, but never become a physicl son by nature.

    Thus, though we can be adopted by God as sons, we will never become divine, we will never becomes gods.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 11:52 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3
    Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.

    That's not what I am talking about. The "choosing" in Joshua is AFTER the Holy Spirit has worked faith. Here Joshua is choosing up sides for the Lord, sort of like a baseball game except this is choose the true God or false ones. The people being asked were already God's.

    Initially, we are dead in sin.

    1 Cor. 2:14 -- The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them.

    Rom. 8:7 -- The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

    John 15:5 -- Without Me ye can do nothing.

    Phil. 2:13 -- It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

    Phil. 1:29 -- For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him.

    Eph. 2:8 -- It is the gift of God.

    John 6:29 -- This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

    Ezek. 11:19 -- He takes away the hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may walk in His commands.

    Eph. 2:10 -- He creates us in Christ Jesus to good works.

    2 Cor. 5:17 -- He makes us new creatures.

    John 6:44 -- No one can come to Christ unless the Father draw him.
    1 Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 12:13 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    True - but God remains God and we remain men. Scripture only speaks of Jesus as the Son of God, not us. We are called adopted sons, and the important difference is that a son by adoption receives the benefits of a son by nature, but never become a physicl son by nature.

    Thus, though we can be adopted by God as sons, we will never become divine, we will never becomes gods.

    True- we are called to be children of God but there is only "ONE begotten Son of God"
  • Apr 30, 2009, 05:48 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    That's not what I am talking about. The "choosing" in Joshua is AFTER the Holy Spirit has worked faith. Here Joshua is choosing up sides for the Lord, sort of like a baseball game except this is choose the true God or false ones. The people being asked were already God's.

    Not true. It is asking people to make a real choice between the true God and false gods. Look at the choice that they were asked to make:

    Josh 24:14-16
    14 "Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
    NKJV



    Quote:

    Initially, we are dead in sin.

    1 Cor. 2:14 -- The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them.

    Rom. 8:7 -- The carnal mind, or the mind of the natural man, is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

    John 15:5 -- Without Me ye can do nothing.

    Phil. 2:13 -- It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

    Phil. 1:29 -- For unto you it is given, in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him.

    Eph. 2:8 -- It is the gift of God.

    John 6:29 -- This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

    Ezek. 11:19 -- He takes away the hard heart of stone, and gives a new tender heart of flesh, that we may walk in His commands.

    Eph. 2:10 -- He creates us in Christ Jesus to good works.

    2 Cor. 5:17 -- He makes us new creatures.

    John 6:44 -- No one can come to Christ unless the Father draw him.
    1 Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost.
    I agree with all of this. Where is the verse which says that we make no decision?
  • Apr 30, 2009, 06:35 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I agree with all of this. Where is the verse which says that we make no decision?

    How about "it's a gift"? Do you help choose a gift someone gives you? If you help in the decision-making process, is it still a gift?

    How about "Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost"?
  • Apr 30, 2009, 06:54 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    How about "it's a gift"? Do you help choose a gift someone gives you? If you help in the decision-making process, is it still a gift?

    Yes, it is a gift, but do you know anyone who "forces" a gift on you? If a person chooses to reject a gift, will you demand that they accept it, will you force them?

    A gift is not a gift if it is forced on a person against their will.

    Quote:

    How about "Cor. 12:3 -- No one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Ghost"?
    Where did I say that the Holy Spirit did not play a part? Indeed I have stated that the Holy Spirit is essential very frequently.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 06:57 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Yes, it is a gift, but do you know anyone who "forces" a gift on you? If a person chooses to reject a gift, will you demand that they accept it, will you force them?

    If you feel God forces this gift on you, you can say no, thank you.
    Quote:

    A gift is not a gift if it is forced on a person against their will.
    Exactly.
    Quote:

    Where did I say that the Holy Spirit did not play a part? Indeed I have stated that the Holy Spirit is essential very frequently.
    The Holy Spirit did it ALL!
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:01 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    If you feel God forces this gift on you, you can say no, thank you.

    Precisely. So we can accept Jesus as Saviour or Reject. We have choice and freewill.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:22 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Precisely. So we can accept Jesus as Saviour or Reject. We have choice and freewill.

    We do nothing to accept. After the Holy Spirit has worked faith in your heart, you have done nothing except will have the right to say no.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:30 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    We do nothing to accept. After the Holy Spirit has worked faith in your heart, you have done nothing except will have the right to say no.

    If you can say no, you can say yes.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:31 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    If you can say no, you can say yes.

    Nope. If you say yes, you are doing work toward your own salvation, and that takes you down the same road of those you disagree with who espouse work righteousness.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 07:38 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Nope. If you say yes, you are doing work toward your own salvation, and that takes you down the same road of those you disagree with who espouse work righteousness.

    Accepting a free gift is not work by any definition.

    But once again, let's go by what scripture says. Let me ask you again for where scripture says that we cannot choose to accept God.

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