Ask Me Help Desk - Who are the evil ones who say Lord, Lord?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Hi Joe, Hi Fred. Good to "see" you guys.

Yes, Fred, it has come to look like his reason for rejecting it is just that the denominations he doesn't like teach it. He appears to be lashing out at boogymen. And very angrily, too.

Hi everybody!

It seems to prove the adage that nothing ever really changes!

Let's take TJ's scenario and turn it around and see what objections we get.

By the magic of the “if”, our friend is now a young man. He makes a commitment to God and accepts Christ. But, becomes a depraved, drugs ridden, dishonest, etc. and winds up in the gutter dead. Obviously he performed no works. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to hell how is it his faith alone didn’t save him.

JoeT

Joe,
Very good question.
The bible teaches us that by our works (good or bad) we are judged.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,

Your question gets at one of the things that is so unsavory about the faith-only credo: So long as I close my eyes really tight and tell myself that I'm saved, I can do whatever I want and not have to worry about risking my salvation. This is just the thing for which Paul chastised the Corinthians. And it's just a repugnant view. (Watch, Tj will quote the pervious sentence and say: "So now you're saying that the Bible is repugnant" or some-such nonsense.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Hi everybody!

It seems to prove the old adage that nothing ever really changes!

Let's take TJ's scenario and turn it around and see what objections we get.

By the magic of the “if”, our friend is now a young man. He makes a commitment to God and accepts Christ. But, becomes a depraved, drugs ridden, dishonest, etc., and winds up in the gutter dead. Obviously he performed no works. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to hell how is it his faith alone didn't save him.

JoeT

I never said that a person cannot reject their salvation. Whether he would go to hell would be a matter for God to decide.

But you DID say that water baptism and works are essential for salvation, so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Question by TJ:

This question shows a fundamental misconception of baptism. Baptism is the regeneration by being re-born by water and the Holy Ghost, being born again in the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God's Kingdom. Through matter (the water) and form (the invocation of the Holy Trinity) we ...

You were given two examples that scripture gives of people saved without water baptism. Before we get into further detail, deal with those two examples, because all that we need is one example to show your argument in is error.

Second, you were also asked this:

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Please answer that question also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Do you honestly mean to liken YOURSELF to the APOSTLE PAUL? (Nope, no humility there.)

You mean a sinner saved through the cross of Christ? Yep.

You think that you are better than him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
Very good question.
The bible teaches us that by our works (good or bad) we are judged.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is true... and where are we when this happens? Heaven ! Not at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT BUT... in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ! At the Judgement seat of Christ. SAVED! SAVED from hell. WE WILL be judged for our works.. but it isn't a question of our salvation!! It is a question of our life on earth and how we will be rewarded for all eternity!! Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven... really big.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Hi Joe, Hi Fred. Good to "see" you guys.

Yes, Fred, it has come to look like his reason for rejecting it is just that the denominations he doesn't like teach it. He appears to be lashing out at boogymen. And very angrily, too.

Look at who is angry and getting abuse! Clearly I am hitting sore points :p

BTW, I am not affiliated with any denomination. Neither do I endorse any.

I suppose going after the person is a substitute for a good answer for some folk!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

You mean a sinner saved through the cross of Christ? Yep.

You think that you are better than him?

TJ3,

The apostle paul called himself a sinner of whom he was CHIEF. He wouldn't have it any other way. LOL good answer I would give you a greenie but I have to spread the love with others first and the site wouldn't let me... ;_

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Originally Posted by classyT

that is true...and where are we when this happens? heaven ! not at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT BUT...in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ! At the Judgement seat of Christ. SAVED! SAVED from hell. WE WILL be judged for our works..but it isn't a question of our salvation!!!! It is a question of our life on earth and how we will be rewarded for all eternity!!! Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven...really big.

Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

Tj3,

Me too! Last time I checked all my righteousness is as a fithy rag! I don't reckon I can make it less filthy. ANYTHING I do and I mean ANYTHING that is for the Lord's Glory... will be cast at HIS feet. I didn't do it on my own. AMEN. People need to heed and understand the scripture.

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've addressed.

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the others being *saved*. There is mention made of the fact that they were promptly baptized, though.

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. Passage? And where does the NT say that we are saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you going to come through on any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to understand EACH of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Those that choose to squander there time will NOT be given the rewards that those who live for him get. IT is a BIG deal. AND it will be really big in heaven...really big.

Squander their time not doing what, works? There is a point to God’s plan as to why we are here and not in heaven right now. Would our maker put us here and then damn us to hell unless we say some formula “I accept Christ as my savior”? God didn’t make mankind evil, what kind of God would that be? God made us good, with a free-will, and because of Adam and Eve’s fall from grace we are left with a concupiscence which is “in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason.”

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've addressed.

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the others being *saved*. There is mention made of the fact that they were promptly baptized, though.

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. passage? And where does the NT say that we are saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you gonna come through on any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to understand EACH of them.

If works has nothing to do with redemption, then we can say that Judas is safe in heaven. There’s little doubt he confessed Christ as his Lord. Ya think? Nah!

JoeT

Hmmm? Golly gee wiz joe... I didn't realize that the Lord Jesus had died on the cross and rose again BEFORE Judas killed himself. ( so your theory makes NO SENSE) FIRST of all.. Judas didn't EVER believe... he was simply just one of the crowd that said... Oh yeah... I'm a "Christ follower."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Good answer.

I fear more for those who place their hopes in their "righteous" works for salvation than I do for those who receive Jesus as Saviour in their hearts and yet fail to perfectly live the life.

Who ever said that you have to "perfectly live the life"? No one has ever said that salvation is granted only to the sinless. (The Catholic-Orthodox view regards that as a heresy, in fact.)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Judas didn't EVER believe....

Where are you getting that?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But you DID say that water baptism and works are essential for salvation, so....

No. What is said in Scripture is that baptism is essential for redemption. Furthermore that the faith received must be accompanied with works. We’ve covered it several times now.

JoeT

Akoue,

That he was never a believer. He followed the crowd and he liked his position and what the LOrd could do for HIM. But when push came to shove he betrayed him.. he didn't believe he was GOD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Squander their time not doing what, works? There is a point to God’s plan as to why we are here and not in heaven right now. Would our maker put us here and then damn us to hell unless we say some formula “I accept Christ as my savior”? God didn’t make mankind evil, what kind of God would that be? God made us good, with a free-will, and because of Adam and Eve’s fall from grace we are left with a concupiscence which is “in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason.”

JoeT

NO.. squander their time living more for themselves than for CHRIST!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Akoue,

That he was never a believer. He followed the crowd and he liked his position and what the LOrd could do for HIM. But when push came to shove he betrayed him..he didn't believe he was GOD.

Scripture doesn't say that. It does, however, tell us that he was possessed. I'm just confused about where this comes from: Where are we told that he liked his position and what Christ could do for him? You may be right, I just don't remember this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

hmmm? golly gee wiz joe...I didn't realize that the Lord Jesus had died on the cross and rose again BEFORE Judas killed himself. ( so your theory makes NO SENSE) FIRST of all..Judas didn't EVER believe....he was simply just one of the crowd that said...Oh yeah...i'm a "Christ follower."

Yes, it does. Think about what redemption by "faith alone" (without works) implies. All I need is to have faith right? And if I have faith for one fleeting moment in my life, I must be saved; evil can no longer touch me, and my evil deed mean nothing. Thus I can hang Christ on a tree, then myself and be assured of God’s promise of salvation, right?

Wrong!!

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've

addressed.

I did not see where you addressed the thief - please repost.

Quote:

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De

Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the

others being *saved*.

And once again there was no response to the question that I asked (you seem

to consistently avoid them). The question is:

Do you believe that it is possible for a person who is unsaved to have the

indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Quote:

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Sigh! Your credibility as an expert in logic goes down another notch. Try the fallacy casual oversimplification. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). His syllogism assumed that if we just do righteous works, we are saved. That is not possible until and unless ALL sin is erased. ANY sin and any type of sin will cause us to fall. You therefore cannot simple negate the syllogism to say that if you start doing righteousness words, you are saved.

Quote:

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. Passage? And where does the NT say that we are

saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you going to come through on

any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2,

Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to

understand EACH of them.

Do you EVER read my posts? That was answered long ago, and yet you keep asking. If you would take the time and read my posts when they were put up, a lot of your questions would go away.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

If works has nothing to do with redemption, then we can say that Judas is safe in heaven.

Really? How do you come to that conclusion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Who ever said that you have to "perfectly live the life"? No one has ever said that salvation is granted only to the sinless.

That seemed to be what was implied if you care to look back at the original exchange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

hmmm?...Judas didn't EVER believe....he was simply just one of the crowd that said...Oh yeah...i'm a "Christ follower."

How can you support this with Scripture? I've looked. Judas was counted among the disciples. Why would he follow Christ for 3 years and some odd months? You normally accuse us Catholics of inventing small dogmatic stumbling blocks for salvation. Wouldn't this be a large bolder blocking our journey of faith?

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

No. What is said in Scripture is that baptism is essential for redemption.

That is not found anywhere in scripture. For example, if that were the case, we would not see those examples that you have not dealt with where people are saved prior to water baptism.

I also note that you are avoiding my other question.

I'll bet that I know why!

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Furthermore that the faith received must be accompanied with works. We’ve covered it several times now.

So by calling it "faith received", I take that you are conceding that works follow received faith. Is that correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes, it does. Think about what redemption by "faith alone" (without works) implies. All I need is to have faith right? And if I have faith for one fleeting moment in my life, I must be saved; evil can no longer touch me, and my evil deed mean nothing. Thus I can hang Christ on a tree, then myself and be assured of God's promise of salvation, right?

Wrong!!!

JoeT

Joe,

Christ hadn't died and rose again. So, NO he couldn't. Can I today? Right now I am a Christain woman who has accepted Jesus as my ONLY way to the Father. If I did the unthinkable tomorrow... i.e. killed myself... I'd stand in his presence the second I I left this earth. If I could work my way to heaven.. he didn't have to die. But PRAISE the LORD that I don't want to do that... I want to PLEASE my savior.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I did not see where you addressed the thief - please repost.

.

See ##145, 154.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

See ##145, 154.

I just looked and unless you have a completely different 145 and 154, it is not there, nor were those posts discussing the thief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

How can you support this with Scripture? I've looked. Judas was counted among the disciples. Why would he follow Christ for 3 years and some odd months? You normally accuse us Catholics of inventing small dogmatic stumbling blocks for salvation. Wouldn’t this be a large bolder blocking our journey of faith?

JoeT

HOW? Because he betrayed HIM! He wasn't a true believer.. he thought Jesus was a great guy and all but when push came to shove he didn't believe he was GOD. ARe you going to tell me that a person who believes that Jesus IS GOD is going to turn around a betray him for a few cents? Uhhhh? I don't THINK so. LOL. Now if he thinks he is a pretty cool dude that can do some great things and could give him a GREAT position in his Kingdom... and he'd like to hurry that part along... why not? Peter denied him too!! But the difference was their motives AND their responses afterwards. If Judas had come and fell at the Lords feet.. then we could talk about his true beliefs. There just wasn't any.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is not found anywhere in scripture. For example, if that were the case, we would not see those examples that you have not dealt with where people are saved prior to water baptism.

You lost me. I don't understand what you're saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Sigh! Your credibility as an expert in logic goes down another notch. Try the fallacy casual oversimplification. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). His syllogism assumed that if we just do righteous works, we are saved. That is not possible until and unless ALL sin is erased. ANY sin and any type of sin will cause us to fall. You therefore cannot simple negate the syllogism to say that if you start doing righteousness words, you are saved.

Sigh! You haven't shown that De Maria is guilty of this, since De Maria did not claim that "if we just do righteous works, we are saved". Now THIS--what you've done--is called "attacking a strawman". She explicitly affirmed, through several successive posts, that salvation requires BOTH faith and works. So, no, your analytical skills haven't served you well here.

Also, another free lesson: You don't "negate" a syllogism. Students learn this within the first week of a course on first-order logic (usually when they learn the propositional calculus, even before quantifiers.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That seemed to be what was implied if you care to look back at the original exchange.

The view that only the perfect are saved was held by the Gnostics.

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Originally Posted by classyT

HOW? because he betrayed HIM! He wasn't a true believer..he thought Jesus was a great guy and all but when push came to shove he didn't believe he was GOD. ARe you gonna tell me that a person who believes that Jesus IS GOD is gonna turn around a betray him for a few cents? uhhhh? I don't THINK so. LOL. Now if he thinks he is a pretty cool dude that can do some great things and could give him a GREAT position in his Kingdom...and he'd like to hurry that part along...why not? Peter denied him too!!! But the difference was their motives AND their responses afterwards. If Judas had come and fell at the Lords feet..then we could talk about his true beliefs. There just wasn't any.

Sure he betrayed Christ. But, he was a disciple; to be a disciple you need to confess that you believe (have faith). Didn’t that faith save; if not, why not? Are we to believe that we are only accredited works when they are in the negative?

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Sigh! You haven't shown that De Maria is guilty of this, since De Maria did not claim that "if we just do righteous works, we are saved".

Well, let's see what he did say:

De Maria said:
"Righteousness that we do not do...condemns us. Therefore, if we do works of righteousness, we are saved."

I stand by what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

You lost me. I don't understand what you're saying.

Scripture gives us example of those who were in fact saved before they were baptized in water. That along is fatal to your argument because you claim that cannot happen.

Second, you were also asked this:

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Deal with those issues.

Joe,

If the man believed that Jesus was GOD he would have fell at his feet and confessed. He felt guilt... but he didn't KNOW that JESUS was the one you go to.. he didn't GET IT. PETER DID. JUDAS didn't have any FAITH... he followed the crowd. We get that today in the ChURCH... they follow and do the so called "right" stuff but they are NOT saved. The don't GET IT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

The view that only the perfect are saved was held by the Gnostics.

I am glad that we agree that is a heresy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Sure he betrayed Christ. But, he was a disciple; to be a disciple you need to confess that you believe (have faith). Didn't that faith save; if not, why not? Are we to believe that we are only accredited works when they are in the negative?

JoeT

Jesus did not ask them to confess. He did not need to. He knew their hearts when He first called them. I trust that you believe that Jesus is God. Judas was chosen for reasons known to God, to serve the purposes of God.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Joe,

If the man believed that Jesus was GOD he would have fell at his feet and confessed. He felt guilt...but he didn't KNOW that JESUS was the one you go to..he didn't GET IT. PETER DID. JUDAS didn't have any FAITH...he followed the crowd. We get that today in the ChURCH...they follow and do the so called "right" stuff but they are NOT saved. The don't GET IT.

And where do you find Scriptural evidence for all this stuff about Judas? I can't remember ever reading anything in the Gospels about Judas's psychology. Except that he did feel remorse and so killed himself.