Ask Me Help Desk - A query no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for

ZachZ ,
Regarding your statement about God being three beings = 3 gods. I offer a different view.
The trinity is believed to be three PERSONS in ONE GOD.
That is very similar to we humans being a trinity of three.
We are one being made up of body, mind, and spirit.
Another way of looking at it I am a being who is a husband, father, and grandfather.
Indeed these are over simplifications of the Divine Trinity, but they do give a person a somewhat idea of the triune God.
I hope that is some help for your understanding of that.
Shalom,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

ZachZ ,
Regarding your statement about God being three beings = 3 gods. I offer a different view.
The trinity is believed to be three PERSONS in ONE GOD.
That is very similar to we humans being a trinity of three.
We are one being made up of body, mind, and spirit.
Another way of looking at it I am a being who is a husband, father, and grandfather.
Indeed these are over simplifications of the Divine Trinity, but they do give a person a somewhat idea of the triune God.
I hope that is some help for your understanding of that.
Shalom,
Fred (arcura)

Then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? Such as a father and son relationship?

Lilmkiss,
I have difficulty understanding your question.
It must mean something more that the obvious I memtioned as an example.
It was three persons in one individual.
That is the point I was trying to make.
A more complex on is the fact that we humans are a trinity of mind body and spirit.
All work together in one individual to accomplish many different tasks.
Try cooking a nice breakfast without your mind, or body, or spirit working.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
I have difficulty understanding your question.
It must mean something more that the obvious I memtioned as an example.
It was three persons in one individual.
That is the point I was trying to make.
A more complex on is the fact that we humans are a trinity of mind body and spirit.
All work together in one individual to accomplish many different tasks.
Try cooking a nice breakfast without your mind, or body, or spirit working.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

.

My question was very simple being one indifidual (single/one person) how can they have the Father/Son Relationship? This requires 2 indiviuals in the relationship not 1 and this is scripturaly shown in many place's in the bible matthew being one of them.

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

and in luke

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

How can the same person have two different wants / wills and still be the same person this clearly shows two different people having a relationship and the son is submiting himself to his fathers will. Hence these are two different people. (one can not submit to him self)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? such as a father and son relationship?

Fred was trying to say that a person may fill multiple roles and still be just one person. For instance, Bob can be a father to Melissa and Billy. Bob can also be a husband to Gayle. Bob can be grandfather to Jimmy, Suzie, and Billy.

Lilmkiss,
In my case a father son relationship does require 2 individuals one being the Father the other being the son in a family relationship.
In the case of the of the Triune God they the Father and The Son are 2 different individuals but they are in one being.
Some theologians think of the three persons on the Trinity are a divine family of three.
As the bible says, "with God all things are possible."
I do believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachZ

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

God the Father is a spirt which manifested Himself into man through a woman. The spirit of God resurrected Jesus. You can find this in the book of John chapter 1 verses 1-5 and verse 14.

God the Father is a spirt which manifested Himself into man through a woman. The spirit of God resurrected Jesus. You can find this in the book of John chapter 1 verses 1-5 and verse 14.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

then please do explain to me how one can have a relationship with himself? such as a father and son relationship?

You just explained it. A father has a relationship of love with his son. That one statement explains the Trinity.

God the Father loves God the Son and the Love that they have for each other is God the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

My question was very simple being one indifidual (single/one person)

You are mistaken. The three persons consist in one God.

Quote:

how can they have the Father/Son Relationship? This requires 2 indiviuals

It requires to persons.

Quote:

in the relationship not 1 and this is scripturaly shown in many place's in the bible matthew being one of them.

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

and in luke

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

How can the same person have two different wants / wills

Jesus has a human will and a Divine will. How He has it is a mystery. It is a truth revealed by Divine revelation.

Quote:

and still be the same person this clearly shows two different people having a relationship and the son is submiting himself to his fathers will. Hence these are two different people. (one can not submit to him self)

No, it shows two different Persons. People are human beings by definition. However, persons may human or divine.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachZ

Please answer me this -- Is it valid to vow a sacrifice to HaShem that is clearly against His Torah? What if I were to say "I vow to steal $1,000 from my neighbor and dedicate it to HaShem." We all agree that stealing violates Torah commandments--at least two, clearly: Exodus 20:15, and Deut. 5:19. Is my offering acceptable? No. Is my vow valid? No.

Agreed, and agreed!!

I don't think you or any other Christian is a jerk for being Christian, I just think you're misguided.

Your original question mentions Jesus all over it. That is what I was referring to. You ask a Q referring to Jesus, then say you can't accept any reasons based on the New Testament. That's why I asked so what are we talking about Jesus for if New Testament has to be disregarded, and He is not in the Old Testament. The argument seems circular.
The scriptures I cited, the whole gist of my last communication is my reply to your question. Apparently making a vow to God trumps other laws. Why, I have no idea, God tells me what to do, I don't tell Him
Apparently in complicated matters the priest would stand before God with Ummim and Thumin to decide these things? Also the Old Testament often says, "in those days there was no king in Israel, a man would do whatever was good in his own eyes"

The tie between jesus the son and god the father is the spirit of god. We don't know what spirit is, because we can't see it. But it must have power, because jesus could do things no other human being could do. He attributed his power to god the father, so they interacted intimately, on a spiritual basis. God's spirit of power rose jesus from death, so some would say his sacrifice was meaningless, if god didn't die. Whatever importance god placed on jesus' sacrifice, we know was worth the payment for all of the sins of mankind. So that death was very important. And the resurrection was the continuation of a plan for mankind's eternity. God also speaks of jesus as a stumblingblock, or stumblingstone. If we get caught up in the impossibility of jesus' miracles, instead of the importance of his atonement and love, we're stumbling at something that will ultimately lead to vanity.

Jesus did die. He went into hell for three days to overcome death and the devil so that we can have eternal life. He rose from the dead 3 days later. The blood of Jesus is what washes our sins away which is what the sacrifice was for. Jesus was said to be the cornerstone, not a stumbling stone. Ephesians 2:20, 1 peter 2:6, isaiah 28:16, which is saying Jesus is the foundation. Cogs, I like your philosophy of the stumblingstone. It is not scriptual but it does make sense. Faith is believing the things we can not see, the things we think are impossible. God said lean not to our own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

De Maria,
Very correct responses.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by maje3

Jesus did die. He went into hell for three days to overcome death and the devil so that we can have eternal life. He rose from the dead 3 days later. The blood of Jesus is what washes our sins away which is what the sacrafice was for. Jesus was said to be the cornerstone, not a stumbling stone. ephesians 2:20, 1 peter 2:6, isaiah 28:16, which is saying Jesus is the foundation. Cogs, I like your philosophy of the stumblingstone. It is not scriptual but it does make sence. Faith is believing the things we can not see, the things we think are impossible. God said lean not to our own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

NEVER, NEVER did Jesus go to hell! He went to the waiting place for those that where going to heaven and preached to them. At no point in the bible did Jesus ever, ever go to hell. This is only taught by the roman catholic church and was introduced by the apostles creed which again is only used in the roman catholic church.

Lilmkiss,
The Catholic Church agrees with "the waiting place" you mentioned.
It is called Purgatory.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

You are mistaken. The three persons consist in one God.

It requires to persons.

Both of these sentences where meant to be read together not apart and it was a question to show that to say that there is only one person but he just plays the three different roles is a very inacurate and oversimplification is not the right way to say it except that it is 100% wrong. That's what this was meant to say

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Jesus has a human will and a Divine will. How He has it is a mystery. It is a truth revealed by Divine revelation.

it is no mystery " with God all things are posible" you are right that we may not be able to understand why, but look where we live, we are in a close minded society that inhibits thinkers or new ideas. (we could go in deaper to this but we would have to make a different form to desucs my idea's on our society.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

No, it shows two different Persons. People are human beings by definition. However, persons may human or divine.

I am sorry but I see no diffrence between people/person, beings/being or individuals/individual (they do have their context but please they mean the same thing I won't argue simatics)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

both of these sentences where meant to be read together not apart and it was a question to show that to say that there is only one person but he just plays the three different roles

Sorry, but that is not the doctrine. There are THREE Persons in ONE God.

Quote:

is a very inacurate and oversimplification is not the right way to say it except that it is 100% wrong. That's what this was meant to say

Well, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and She teaches that doctrine. The Catholic Church is called the Pillar of Truth in Scripture and is therefore infallible.

I believe the Catholic Church.

Quote:

it is no mystery " with God all things are posible" you are right that we may not be able to understand why, but look where we live, we are in a close minded society that inhibits thinkers or new ideas. (we could go in deaper to this but we would have to make a different form to desucs my idea's on our society.)

Exactly! Look around. The culture has changed from a culture who understood ABSOLUTE Truths to one who prefers to believe whatever is between their ears. This is a RELATIVISTIC Society.

Quote:

I am sorry but I see no diffrence between people/person, beings/being or individuals/individual

Apparently you are going by the secular definition. However, you are on a Christian forum and we are discussing the Theological definition of Person and God.

Quote:

(they do have their context but please they mean the same thing I won't argue simatics)

As they say at Burger King, "Have it your way!";)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
The Catholic Church agrees with "the waiting place" you mentioned.
It is called Purgatory.
Fred

Hee if you read the bible they went to heaven/Paridice afterward no one waits anymore they where waiting for Jesus to come before they entred heaven hence now that he has come there is no more need to wait. (I am not getting back into this with you I have given your scripture in context and found no proof for your asumptions that pergatory exists.)

Lilmkiss
Sorry, I believe what the bible says.
Several passages indicate that Purgatory exists.
I have posted them before.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Sorry, but that is not the doctrine. There are THREE Persons in ONE God.

If you read what I said in context I SAID that they are thee persons in one God. I was making a retorical question that already had an answer it was NOT and i repeat NOT my point of veiw but simply showing acura that it was a convoluted point of view. This is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Well, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and She teaches that doctrine. The Catholic Church is called the Pillar of Truth in Scripture and is therefore infallible.

No he founded the Church NOT the catholic church. The catholic church was created by by the Ceaser after Jesus had already created the church (which was a Juish comimunity not and I repeat not a Roman community aka the Roman Catholic church was NOT the first church). And since the Roman Catholic church was created by man and run by man and man is falible there fore the Roman catholic church is Falible!

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

I believe the Catholic Church.

So you believe man over God. Personaly I believe the bible not people (the pope is not infalibel

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Exactly! Look around. The culture has changed from a culture who understood ABSOLUTE Truths to one who prefers to believe whatever is between their ears. This is a RELATIVISTIC Society.

Yay we agree on something!

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Apparently you are going by the secular definition. However, you are on a Christian forum and we are discussing the Theological definition of Person and God.

(God uses man never does he use person beings or otherwise these are words we added, he never said he made people in his own image he said that he made man in his own image) so by Definition you me and anyone who uses these words are saying harisy so on and so fourth (dont argue simaticts what's the point take the message NOT individual words, OK this detracts from what others say so if anything discuss the concept IN context and not to dirive meanings that where never inteded that includes in Theology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

As they say at Burger King, "Have it your way!";)

(Wow strong attack :p if you want to attack me go below the belt and prove me wrong with scripture please. )

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss
Sorry, I believe what the bible says.
Several passages indicate that Purgatory exists.
I have posted them before.
Fred

I have shown everything you have in context to the verses before and after and have discredited your clames and others as well have done so if you want post these verses again and I will do the same.

Lilmkiss
That is your opinion.
I saw no discredit of those verses, only attempts to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

NEVER, NEVER did Jesus go to hell! He went to the waiting place for those that where going to heaven and preached to them. At no point in the bible did Jesus ever, ever go to hell. This is only taught by the roman catholic church and was introduced by the apostles creed which again is only used in the roman catholic church.

Ephesians 4:9 "Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

Before the death of Christ both the lost and the saved went to Hades (Sheol) although it was divided into the place of torment and the paradise of God (also called Abraham's bosom.) Luke 16:19-31

You can also refer to Rev 1:18. Jesus has the keys to hell and death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maje3

Ephesians 4:9 "Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

Before the death of Christ both the lost and the saved went to Hades (Sheol) although it was divided into the place of torment and the paradise of God (also called Abraham's bosom.) Luke 16:19-31

You can also refer to Rev 1:18. Jesus has the keys to hell and death.

It also Sais in Rev that the gates to hell will be opened once and closed once therefor if Jesus went into hell the it would have been opend twice and closed twice no?

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

I am sorry but this is talking about Jesus comeing to Earth not hell note the Earthly reagons meaning EARTH not HELL anyway this was not a question but a statement that to assend he first had to desend to our level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss
That is your opinion.
I saw no discredit of those verses, only attempts to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you want to start this post the scripture and I will be more then willing to put it into context I emplore you to do so.

Lilmkiss,
It says he descended into the Lower parts of the earth, not the earth. What are you referring to in Revelation about the gates of hell being open and closed once?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maje3

Lilmkiss,
It says he descended into the Lower parts of the earth, not the earth. What are you referring to in Revelation about the gates of hell being open and closed once?

Just give me a moment I had my bible in my room but I can't find it I have had this desuction more then once I will post it up tonight

O.K. I'll read it tomorrow. Have a good night.

Lilmkiss,
Jesus informs us that the Gates of hell cannot stop The Church from saving soules.
Thus...
Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.''
17. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
Gates are a battlement to keep people out not to prevent people form leaving.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcira)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
Jesus informs us that the Gates of hell cannot stop The Church from saving soules.
Thus...
Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.''
17. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
Gates are a battlement to keep people out not to prevent people form leaving.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcira)

And on this rock I will build My church (This is speeking about the Base that he Built this is not speeking about Peter being the rock of the Church; this has been explained by many people other then me)

Second

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

and on this rock I will build My church (This is speeking about the Base that he Built this is not speeking about Peter being the rock of the Church; this has been explained by many people other then me)

second

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

Matt 16 13 20 The Primacy of Peter (The first, Simon who is called Peter Matt 10:2)

18. Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam. (That thou art Peter)

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine's decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor's gives judgment.”

Only after 1520 some have asked why this reference is only found in one Gospel and not the others, Warren Carroll suggest the rather simple answer: “Why are Christ's words to Peter found only in Matthew, and not in the other gospels? Because Mathew was there, with Peter and the Twelve, on the road to Caesarea Philippi in the summer of 29 A.D.: he heard the dialogue himself, in his own Aramaic language. Mark the Evangelist was not there; his information came from Peter, and we have very early testimony that out of humility Peter did not include Christ's praise of him in his catechesis. John had the other gospels before him as he wrote, and rarely repeated what they had already reported.. . “ That the words don't appear in Mark's Gospel was influenced by Peter's humility. It would be easy to suggest this as speculation however Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of Mark, mentions it as does Eusebius of Caesarea. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 338. (see also footnote 139)

In the Douay Rheims the verse reads as follows:

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

In the way of setting the scene; Caesarea Phillippi is in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon as mentioned in Josh 11:17 or Baal Hemon as mentioned in Judg 3:3. Of particular interest is a land feature of a massive rock face. One of the tributaries for the Jordan River flows through the area. The area was liberated by the Maccabean revolt in 167 B.C. In 4 B.C. one of Herod the Great s three sons, Philip, built the Roman Grecian of Caesarea Philippi to honor the Roman emperor.

You can imagine Jesus with this huge rock wall as a backdrop, asking twice (not once but twice), “Whom to they say that I am?” No other disciples could give the answer but Simon. Simon confessed Jesus as being both the Messiah and the “Son of the Living God.” God had revealed to Simon what no other man on earth knew; Christ was the Second Person of the One Devine God.

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I can't claim any significance to the number of times “blessed art thou” is used in the New Testament. However, it is used only three times, twice in Luke 1: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women... 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be; and once in Matthew 16:17. It's only used once by Jesus. (this holds true in the NKJV also) In my estimation, like Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation; the first of 266 whose “successor's gives judgment,” St. Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus… Benedict XVI

In plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Rock and on this Rock I will build my church; hell won't prevail against it.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, “the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man's name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ's words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew's Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135

Mat 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In verse 17 Jesus is obviously pleased seeing that this knowledge didn't come from human reason, but rather the knowledge was a Grace from Aba (I'm told, that Christ was the first to refer to God as Aba [Father] – did you know that? Interesting isn't it). So as a reward, or as acknowledgement, you would have Jesus say, Woe to you Peter... you have not gained access, yet you have stopped those who wished to enter! And thereafter say I will build a church on your faith to which the gates of hell will not prevail. Excuse me for finding this impossible to swallow. It doesn't even meet you definition of “scripture interprets scripture.”

It's interesting that you should bring up the book of Revelations. Matt 16:15-19; especially, the Key of David that the Holy One opens and no man shuts. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth: 8 I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength and hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. The key of the House of David relate to the same earthly keys given Eliacim, son of Helcias. "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of full and unlimited authority over the Kingdom of Juda. This too would be a direct reference to the Primacy of authority, a very good reason to accept St. Peter as the Prince of the Church Militant. But I would suggest it wasn't the set of keys conferred on St. Peter, the keys to heaven the right to bind or loose in heaven and earth. The reason is that these keys are located in heaven, held by an angel church that is using the keys to keep open the door, presumably the door of holy righteousness. Another reason I don't think they are the same keys is because we see three sets of keys in sacred Scripture, the Keys of Heaven, the Key of the bottomless pit (hell), and the Keys of the House of David. Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet: and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth. And there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. But in Revelations, where John is escorted through God's Kingdom in Heaven, we don't hear of the Key's of Heaven. Are we to presume that there are Keys to earthly kingdoms, hellish kingdoms, but no keys to heaven in heaven? And the reason, the Keys to Heaven reside with the Successors of St. Peter.

JoeT

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I agree fully. (didn't I just write that?)

JoeT

JoeT777
Yes you did, but I wanted to say it a bit differently to hopefully make if more clear and give a bit different way of understanding it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

HI Lilmkiss,
This scripture is saying that when God shuts a door no one can open it and when he opens a door no one can shut it. It's not talking about the doors of hell.
In other words what God has for you is for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maje3

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

Quote:

HI Lilmkiss,
This scripture is saying that when God shuts a door no one can open it and when he opens a door no one can shut it. It's not talking about the doors of hell.
In other words what God has for you is for you.

We can see that the suggestion for the keys to "bind and loosen" are conferred on every Christian is terribly illogical. We see in John 17:11 that Christ prays for us to be ONE: And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are. If we are to be ONE and we all have the key to bind and loosen, then what I bind you can loosen (and vice versa); which of course isn't being ONE.

Matt 16 very clearly confers the responsibility, and the means to carry out the responsibility, i.e. authority, to Peter.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

May God reveal the Truth to each reader. When Peter is called the rock, it is because Peter is baptized and walks in Perfect Faith, believing in Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour.
Those that are baptized walk in Christ and with Christ, believing in the Saviour of the World.

Peter was asked by Jesus...

1.Peter, Do you love Me? Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

2. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

3. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee

We now walk as Peter did, in Christ... Do you Love Christ? YES Lord, above all.

By choice in mind and heart of Free Will... Who do you follow? Christ Jesus, The Rock

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Choice? Do you believe Our Father's Word?

(John 21:15 John 21:16 John 21:17)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

May God reveal the Truth to each reader. When Peter is called the rock, it is because Peter is baptized and walks in Perfect Faith, believing in Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour.
Those that are baptized walk in Christ and with Christ, believing in the Saviour of the World.

Peter was asked by Jesus...

1.Peter, Do you love Me? Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

2. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

3. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee

We now walk as Peter did, in Christ... Do you Love Christ? YES Lord, above all.

By choice in mind and heart of Free Will... Who do you follow? Christ Jesus, The Rock

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Choice? Do you believe Our Father's Word?

(John 21:15 John 21:16 John 21:17)

But you are neglecting the fact that Jesus also said that He was building His Church on that Rock and that He was giving His Keys to the Kingdom to that Rock.

Therefore, Jesus installed Peter as the Rock of His Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Therefore, Jesus installed Peter as the Rock of His Church.

No. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that Peter was the rock. No Protestant church body agrees with that. Protestants believe the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, the Rock.